"JUSTIFICATION": to the wicked, or to the just?

[DaDaBrothers]

who do you think is the One who Justifies the unrighteous?

Well, we know it is not the God of Israel (Exodus 23:7)
We know it is probably a sinner ( Isaiah 5:23)
And it is an abomination for sure ( Proverbs 17:15)
I dont know, maybe it is the "unknown God" Paul was talking about.

 

[Abaxvahl]

Well, we know it is not the God of Israel (Exodus 23:7)
We know it is probably a sinner ( Isaiah 5:23)
And it is an abomination for sure ( Proverbs 17:15)
I dont know, maybe it is the "unknown God" Paul was talking about.

The unknown God made the world and all therein, made from one man all nations, split them into boundaries (sounds like Babel), is going to judge the world in righteousness by a man who He appointed who He also raised from the dead, and we live and have our being in Him. I wonder who that could possibly be? You sound like a dystheist.

 

[prophecy_uk]

DaDa: "The testimony of two men is true, the Father testified about His Son, not of Paul.
Meaning the Son is true.

And the Son said:

John 5:31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true."





Yes and Jesus testified of Paul, see here and ignore to your own peril (nobody else's)


Mark 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.


Fulfilled in any other verses of the new testament, or these ones ?

Acts 16:16 And it came to pass, as we went to prayer, a certain damsel possessed with a spirit of divination met us, which brought her masters much gain by soothsaying:
17 The same followed Paul and us, and cried, saying, These men are the servants of the most high God, which shew unto us the way of salvation.
18 And this did she many days. But Paul, being grieved, turned and said to the spirit, I command thee in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her. And he came out the same hour.

1 Corinthians 14:18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:


Acts 28:3 And when Paul had gathered a bundle of sticks, and laid them on the fire, there came a viper out of the heat, and fastened on his hand.
4 And when the barbarians saw the venomous beast hang on his hand, they said among themselves, No doubt this man is a murderer, whom, though he hath escaped the sea, yet vengeance suffereth not to live.
5 And he shook off the beast into the fire, and felt no harm.
6 Howbeit they looked when he should have swollen, or fallen down dead suddenly: but after they had looked a great while, and saw no harm come to him, they changed their minds, and said that he was a god.

Acts 28:8 And it came to pass, that the father of Publius lay sick of a fever and of a bloody flux: to whom Paul entered in, and prayed, and laid his hands on him, and healed him.
9 So when this was done, others also, which had diseases in the island, came, and were healed:

 

[DaDaBrothers]

The unknown God made the world and all therein

No he didnt, the God of Israel made the world and He is very well known by everyone.

 

[prophecy_uk]

Abex: The unknown God made the world and all therein, made from one man all nations, split them into boundaries (sounds like Babel), is going to judge the world in righteousness by a man who He appointed who He also raised from the dead, and we live and have our being in Him. I wonder who that could possibly be? "


Yes the world has been made known, but still does not know, the sound went out to all the earth, and you would think that all Catholics would be saved then, all being similar and not having too much difficulty in the religion to follow?

But it is a narrow path few find, it is not found on the wide easy path to destruction many are on in the man made religions, that are all that exist now.

Romans 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.
20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.
21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

 

[DaDaBrothers]

Sign and wonders dont mean evidence:

Matthew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

The real sign is to confess Christ came in the flesh, and love Him in truth. Im talking about the real Christ, as you know there are many false Christs.

 

[Abaxvahl]

No he didnt, the God of Israel made the world and He is very well known by everyone.

I am quoting St. Paul in Acts, indeed that God which He was arguing for is the God of Israel and made the world and is known by all, for "His power and and deity are clearly seen." So do you think St. Paul lied, is in error, is not an Apostle? Do you think the other Apostles were deceived, the Church was deceived, the Holy Spirit a liar? Do you reject the Council of Jerusalem, 2 Peter, the other Apostolic works? What is your position on him so that I can clearly see what manner of worthlessness I have been dealing with.

 

[prophecy_uk]

DaDa: "Sign and wonders dont mean evidence:"

Matthew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.


But Jesus gave the sign to those who believe to see, not false Christs and false prophets, and then the signs Jesus gave to those who believe, are the only evidence for belief..

Mark 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe


No other verses show the serpent being cast off, other than Paul, it is just DaDaBrothers, that wishes to ignore all about Paul, and has nothing right to disagree with, and now has associated blasphemy with Christ..

 

[prophecy_uk]

Abax, you are debating with what you do not know, it must be a practice of yours, I tried to tell you but you debate on. I did answer directly to the mistake of DaDaBrothers, because I am able to, but now I am going.

 

[DaDaBrothers]

the signs Jesus gave to those who believe, are the only evidence for belief

Not the "only" signs:
1 John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God

 

[DaDaBrothers]

what manner of worthlessness I have been dealing with.

You have judged rightly, Im a poor one, worthless to the world.

James 2:5 Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?

 

[fhansen]

No, first you have to repent and be baptised, then you are no longer a sinner you walk in the light therefore can be cleansed and only after this can you be justified by God. Justificacion is a point in time, not a process, like the point in time the perfect Judge strikes with the hammer on the table and declares you justified from that point in time onwards.



We can't? You have no free will? Do we tell sinners to repent? Or to just wait for God to save them because there is nothing they can do?
We tell them to repent because God cannot justify them unless they turn away from sin and come to the Light, by their own free will.

Yes, but it's not either/or, but both/and. We can't even move and turn ourselves to God in faith and repentance to begin with without th ehelp of grace, without Him, IOW. It's all a work of grace at the end of the day. And yet, where some go wrong is in thinking that grace isn't resistible-that man has no choice in cooperating, in acting on the gifts. But he does; he can say no, either at the beginnng or at any point later on in his walk with God. As we say yes, however, as we open the door when He knocks, we already enter a state of justice or righteousness by that very act, and based on and from within that relationship He justifes us.

 

[DaDaBrothers]

Revelation 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

First you open the door: ("if any man hear my voice, and open the door,")
Not just hear Him knock, but open the door:

James 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

we already enter a state of justice

It is the right thing to do, but it is just the beggining, your "state of justice" expression that you are "already" in surely cannot mean "justified" in the eyes of God, not yet.

Because now with the door open is when He can come in: "I will come in to him"
You cant be justified, before you even abide in Him and know Him:

1 John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

1 John 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

based on and from within that relationship He justifes us.

Yes, based on the relationship, do you love Him? Do you keep the commandments?
If you do you have eternal life because you love Him, know Him and abide in Him:
1 John 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

Now that you love Him and know Him, you dont sin, and because you are no longer a sinner, He can finally Justify you at last, sharing a meal with you to celebrate:
"will sup with him, and he with me".

Luke 14:15 [... ] Blessed is he that shall eat bread in the kingdom of God.

This "eating" with Him is eating the bread of life:

John 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

 

[Abaxvahl]

You have judged rightly, Im a poor one, worthless to the world.

James 2:5 Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?

Didn't say you were poor or worthless to the world.

 

[com7fy8]

So who is "the one who justifies sinners" ?

God through Jesus.

The real justification of God is only for the just, God cannot justify sinners.

What God's word means is God does not accept and excuse sinners; so in this meaning of justify, indeed God does not justify evil people.

God will not justify sinners.

It depends on what you mean by justify.

There is justifying which is excusing, and there is justification which means God changing an evil person into a right person.

Jesus Christ of Nazareth does not justify sinners because he is NOT an abomination.
If you say he does, you call him an abomination.

No, Jesus who justifies sinners is not an abomination, because the way He justifies evil people is He changes them into people who are right with God. So, His way of justifying is good.

No, first He causes them to walk in His statues. There is a change, there is repentance, then they keep His commandments and walk in the Light, therefore can be cleansed and it is only after all of this that they can be justified, because they are no longer sinners.

But justify means to make right, in the case of God justifying. Wrong justifying means to excuse what is wrong and to leave it wrong. But God justifies by changing a person to become right in God's sight. And outwardly keeping commands does not mean someone is right in God's sight.

Justificacion is a point in time, not a process, like the point in time the perfect Judge strikes with the hammer on the table and declares you justified from that point in time onwards.

That is one meaning.

Now, what about how the Holy Spirit saves people . . . "through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit"? > in Titus 3:5. This makes a person right in God's sight, not only declaring the person to be right, but actually changing one's character to be right. So, would this not be one example of justification . . . of making a person right? . . . not only declaring.

 

[Clare73]

DaDaBrothers: "So who is "the one who justifies sinners" ?"


He ( man) cannot justify sinners ( the wicked and ungodly)

We believe on Him ( the Lord God Jesus Christ) who justified the ungodly by being numbered with them to bare the sin of many and to make intercessionh for the transgressors, which was fulfilled..

Isaiah 53:12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

Mark 15:27 And with him they crucify two thieves; the one on his right hand, and the other on his left.
28 And the scripture was fulfilled, which saith, And he was numbered with the transgressors.



Proverbs 17:15 He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the Lord.

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.




It is God that justifies, that overcomes the charges ( of the devil) as Christ overcame for us, and we overcome as He overcame..

Romans 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.




As for gifts, that you left out, Exodus 23:8, they blind the wise and pervert the words of the righteous, no respecting of persons or gifts, to blind the eyes and pervert the words of the righteous..



Deuteronomy 16:19 Thou shalt not wrest judgment; thou shalt not respect persons, neither take a gift: for a gift doth blind the eyes of the wise, and pervert the words of the righteous.

Exodus 23:8 And thou shalt take no gift: for the gift blindeth the wise, and perverteth the words of the righteous.

First let me show you a verse from Brenton's Septuagint Translation:
Exodus 23:7 Thou shalt abstain from every unjust thing: thou shalt not slay the innocent and just, and thou shalt not justify the wicked for gifts.

In this translation it is a commandment, to not justify the wicked. And "for gifts" is a reference to bribery. As we should not accept "free gifts" they are bribery. 8"Do not accept bribe[...]". At least in this context of justification.

In NLT it reads: "[...]I never declare a guilty person to be innocent." The "I" is refering to the God of Israel, and in other translations it says He will not justify the wicked.

And this "wicked" is anyone who breaks God's Law: sinners, guilty, ungodly are all synonyms commonly used, and can be found in Strong's. These are the people God won't justify.
Woe to them:
Isaiah 5:22 Woe to the strong ones of you that drink wine, and the mighty ones that mingle strong drink:
23who justify the ungodly for rewards, and take away the righteousness of the righteous.

Here we see that, it is the sinners that justify the ungodly, not God, and these sinners justify the ungodly "for rewards" or for a bribe.

We also have this verse from NASB:
Proverbs 17:15 One who justifies the wicked and one who condemns the righteous, Both of them alike are an abomination to the LORD.

It is evident the true God of Israel will not justify the sinner, neither the wicked, nor the ungodly. Not only that, but anyone who does, is probably a sinner who did it for a reward, and they are all an abomination to the LORD.

And now we have this verse, I took from Aramaic Bible in Plain English:
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not labor, but believes only in The One who justifies sinners, is his faith accounted for righteousness.
Excuse me, what? "The One who justifies sinners"? Who would that be?
Surely it isn't the God of Israel, who said He will not justify sinners, and He cannot contradict Himself.
Keep in mind this is to "the one who does not labor" meaning the sinners who do not keep the works of the Law, like the commandments. To them it is "credited" righteousness, almost like a "free gift", reminds me of bribery. And all they have to do is believe on "the one who justifies sinners".

So who is "the one who justifies sinners" ?

Is this a set up? Okay. . .I'll bite.

God does not justify the wicked of the OT because their sin has not been remitted, only covered by the animal sacrifices.

God justifies the wicked in the NT whose sins have been remitted through faith (not by works, Ephesians 2:8-9) in Jesus Christ.

Their sins being remitted by faith renders them "not guilty," which removal of guilt God declares in justification; i.e., a declaration of "not guilty," of being in right standing with God's justice,
and a rightousness from God (Romans 1:17, Romans 3:21, Philippians 3:9) in Jesus Christ is credited to them (as righteousness was credited to Abraham by faith, Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:3), apart from works (Romans 4:5; Romans 3:28)--not righteousness in character, but righteous in their standing before God.

Their character grows in their Christian life in the righteousness of sanctification through love and obedience in the Holy Spirit.

 

[Clare73]

Then you just can’t say that you have no sin. Because
Christ had no sin, he just didn’t say it.

He sure makes it clear in my Bible--John 8:46.

But John did, and you have realized now, there is no sin in Him.
So, you must have no sin, to abide in Him, that’s why John wrote the letter, so they don’t sin:
1 John 2:1 "My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not.[...]"

Also the context is sins to cleanse, as the previous verse is talking about getting cleansed:
1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Everyone has sins to be cleansed, and if they walk in the light the Son will cleanse us from all sin, making them without any sin, they just can’t speak of themselves.



If you don’t want to waste time you better walk in the Light, because if you are in darkness you might end up wasting all your time, wasting your eternity.

 

[prophecy_uk]

Clare: "God justifies the wicked in the NT whose sins have been remitted through faith (not by works, Ephesians 2:8-9) in Jesus Christ."



God justifies and glorifies, why consider one is without the other when it is testified they are together, to be parttaker of thew divine nature..



Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

2 Peter 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.





Clare: "Their sins being remitted by faith renders them "not guilty," which removal of guilt God declares in justification; i.e., a declaration of "not guilty," of being in right standing with God's justice,
and a rightousness from God (Romans 1:17, Romans 3:21, Philippians 3:9) in Jesus Christ is credited to them (as righteousness was credited to Abraham by faith, Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:3), apart from works (Romans 4:5; Romans 3:28)--not righteousness in character, but righteous in their standing before God."





Clare, your picking of singular verses is seen as silly.


Just add one more verse to Ephesians 3:9, and with fuller context we read, we then are knowing Him, the power of His resurrection, and fellowshipping in His sufferings, and made conformable to His death...



Philippians 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;




Clare: "Their character grows in their Christian life in the righteousness of sanctification through love and obedience in the Holy Spirit."



Their character was changed, not grown, even next to your own quoted verse of Philippians, this is to believe in, the faith of Jesus Christ, finds us in Christ, which is power by His resurrection, His sufferings in us, and His death, to show His life..



2 Corinthians 4:9 Persecuted, but not forsaken; cast down, but not destroyed;
10 Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body.
11 For we which live are always delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh.



Clare wants to read next to her own quotes ? We get to know the power of the Lords resurrection, this is turning man from the power of satan ( dead in sins) to the power of God ( alive in righteousness with the Holy Spirit writing the new covenant laws of Christ in us)

This is when God may grant to us, by that glory ( remember justified and also glorified) to be strengthened with might ( the power of God) by His Spirit in our inner man, to know the love of Christ, is Christ dwelling in our hearts by faith, this is filled with the fulness of God ( this is growth to Clare? It is belief to me and is Christ formed in us not growing in us)...



Philippians 3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection

Acts 26:18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

Ephesians 3:16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;
17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,
18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.


Clare, I do not mind if you try to stick to your few verses together, I have answered you previous on another thread, you either did not care to read, or did not want to respond, perhaps you might want to engage this time, which is a more honest way, but all the verses you base your belief on will be thoroughly discussed in all detail ?

 

[DaDaBrothers]

God through Jesus.

God will not justify sinners. If you say He does you call Him an abomination.

God does not accept and excuse sinners; so in this meaning of justify, indeed God does not justify evil people.

"This meaning" is entirely made up by you, and is not listed on Strongs.
In Exodus 23:7 God is talking about himself so it means: to be just (of God)
Because the Judgement of God is perfect no sinner will ever be considered "just"(of God).

There is justifying which is excusing, and there is justification which means God changing an evil person into a right person.

Once again entirely made up meanings of the word, both of them actually, not found on Strongs.

the way He justifies evil people is He changes them into people who are right with God.

Again you keep calling Him an abomination with "the way" you think "He justifies evil people", because according to the Scriptures, He doesnt.
Right, first He changes them, making them right with God, and is only after this change occurs, they are no longer wicked that they can be finally justified by God, because they are not wicked anymore.

God justifies by changing a person to become right in God's sight.

I think is the third made up concept of the word "justify" you come up with, now it means changing a person. What does repent mean then?
First they have to repent, turn, and change their mind, and only then, because they are no longer sinners can they be justified, because they are no longer sinners.

So, would this not be one example of justification . . . of making a person right?

No, that is a good example of repentance, a change of mind. They get justified after the change, after they repent, not before neither while they are beeing changed.

 

[DaDaBrothers]

God justifies the wicked in the NT

God does not justify the wicked ever:
Exodus 23:7 "[...]I never declare a guilty person to be innocent."

If you say He does you call Him an abomination:

Proverbs 17:15 One who justifies the wicked and one who condemns the righteous, Both of them alike are an abomination to the LORD.

Their sins being remitted by faith renders them "not guilty," which removal of guilt God declares in justification

Same thing with the Lamb, He will not justify the wicked. So, If you want your sins "remited", you better repent and keep the commandments, because the commandment the Lamb has from the Father in the OT is : thou shalt not justify the wicked for gifts.

And faith without works is dead, so in order to believe, you must keep the commandments.

Jesus Christ is credited to them

Not to the wicked, He is not. Not as a "free gift".
In the context of justification, "free gifts" are bribery:
Exodus 23:8 "Do not accept bribe[...]"

He sure makes it clear in my Bible--John 8:46.

That is not a statement, is a question. He never stated that He had no sin because:
John 5:31 If I bear witness concerning Myself, My testimony is not true.

Only when others talk about Him, they say He has no sin in Him, like John.