Preterism-phony as a Ford Corvette

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Timtofly

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That is Gnostic teaching, pure and simple.

"WHAT? Know ye not that your body is the Temple of the Holy Ghost, which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? For ye are bought with a price..." God OWNS the bodies of the saints - living or dead - which are victims to the consequences of Adam's decision to sin, as well as our own decisions to sin, when we have used it as a vehicle to perform those sinful actions. God does NOT dispose of property that He has paid the price of His blood to purchase. God WILL renovate His own property after death, raising it into an incorruptible condition when it can stand in His presence and be "presented faultless before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy." (Jude 24).

"PRECIOUS in the sight of the Lord is the death of His saints." To keep His promise to Adam, God MUST follow through with the death sentence because of sin, but in spite of that required justice, God still tenderly regards the dead bodies of the saints with "a desire to the work of His hands", as Job 14:15 told us.
Can you prove from Scripture, that upon death, the Holy Spirit remains forever in the physical body, that is buried or cremated?

I agree that while the soul is in this body, this body is also the temple of the Holy Ghost. Why would you claim it remains the temple after death?

If you point out some gnostic teaching, could you back your point up with some quote from gnosticism? When people reply, that is your opinion, or that is x, is that you guessing?

Can I suggest that an obsession with a dead body is not healthy?
 
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Timtofly

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The "First Resurrection" was most definitely a WHEN occurrence. It occurred WHEN the 1,000 years was FINISHED, according to Revelation 20:5, and WHEN the "remnant of the dead came to life" after that 1,000 years was finished. This isn't deep.
The second death is not the first resurrection. Do you have proof death equates to resurrection? Normally death means death, and resurrection means resurrection. They are antonyms not synonyms.
 
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Timtofly

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It is not possible for anyone to have ascended to heaven in a resurrected body form until Christ had made the way possible for them to do so by being the "Firstborn" and the "Firstbegotten" from the dead to do this on His resurrection day ascension. Until He was established as our high priest mediator in heaven, God would not have accepted anyone entering His presence without Christ's intervening blood sacrifice being first sprinkled on heaven's altar that morning in AD 33.

Even later on when the gospel of John was being written, John was still calling Jesus the "ONLY-begotten of the Father" in John 1:14. That still means that no one except Christ at that point had yet ascended to heaven in a resurrected body.

Having Moses and Elijah appear on the Mount of Transfiguration does not mean they had been in heaven standing in God's presence by that appearance on the mountain. If they had been raised from the dead by either Christ or His disciples sometime during Christ's earthly ministry, that does not mean they had yet ascended to heaven. Or this was simply a vision that the disciples were granted of the spirits of Moses and Elijah on that occasion. Like the spirit of Samuel that King Saul spoke with back in the OT.

We are told when the temple in heaven was finally opened to allow access for resurrected men to enter it. Revelation 15:8 says that "no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled." That was in AD 70 when the last, seventh plague had been poured out. The bodies of resurrected saints could then enter heaven's temple for the first time.
I think you have been reading too much about gnosticism. That is my guess and opinion.
 
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Can you prove from Scripture, that upon death, the Holy Spirit remains forever in the physical body, that is buried or cremated?

That body which has once housed the Holy Spirit which gave its spirit eternal life is forever considered a purchased possession belonging to Christ. Not one hair of the heads of the saints will perish, Christ promised the disciples, even though they might be martyred. We are given that Holy Spirit while still living as an "earnest", a "pledge" as a down payment guaranteeing our body's resurrection after death. That "earnest" will be fully paid at the redemption of the whole "purchased possession" - body, soul, and spirit together.

"Whether we live, therefore, or die, we are the Lord's", Paul said.

Joseph was commended for his faith in giving commandment concerning his bones. If those bones were only to be "disposed of" later on, why the commendation for Joseph giving that command?

Can I suggest that an obsession with a dead body is not healthy?

If it truly is an "obsession" to speak of the resurrection of the dead, then count me in along with Paul, who was determined to know nothing among the Corinthians except Jesus Christ and Him crucified. Christ's bodily resurrection as a pattern for our own bodily resurrection was a basic ground-level belief for Paul. Hebrews 6:1-2 lists the resurrection of the dead as one of those basic foundations of the doctrine of Christ. I'm sorry you have a problem with it.

The second death is not the first resurrection.

I never even mentioned the "Second Death" above in my comment about the "remnant of the dead" coming to life again as being the "First Resurrection". The "Second Death" was Jerusalem's Lake of Fire phenomenon during the AD 70 era when the city of Jerusalem and the nation was dying again; the second time that had happened since Jerusalem's first death under the Babylonian invasion back in 586 BC.
 
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Jerryhuerta

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OF COURSE there were types of each thruout the centuries, but none was dominant outside its own little circle. History proves this, as the RCC was dominant a long time, & it represents all those church types. (Yes, there are & were even a few "Philadelphia"-type local congregations.
The doctrine of church ages pushed by charlatans is simply false.

Your opinion that none were dominant is an unlearned one. Centuries of developing the proper guidelines and the passage of time have led expositors to discern the imagery of the churches in tracing the history of the church. Each church has a pronounced theme, such as the ability to discern apostles in the first church of Ephesus, which is certainly indicative of the early rise of the church. The theme of the second church, Smyrna, is their persecution and martyrdom, which soon followed up until the time of the emperor Constantine, the most severe lasting during the reign of Diocletian. The theme of the following church, Pergamos, is that they dwelt in the seat of Satan and how many were seduced by this fraternization, this being acknowledged also by the preponderance of even secular historians concerning the conversion of the Roman empire to Christianity; the empire continued in many respects with pagan idolatry. And the illustrations of Thyatira have led contemporary historicists to interpret Jezebel as the papacy. This is just a cursory development, which relegates your opinion as unsupported.
 
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robycop3

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It seems that you consider this THEN-PRESENT REALITY in Matthew 24:36 of the people not knowing the time of Jesus's return as being the equivalent of a continuing ignorance of this time. Even in I Thess. 5:4-6, the apostle Paul told his readers, "But YE BRETHREN, ARE NOT IN DARKNESS, that that day should overtake you as a thief." They KNEW the signs to look for at that point, and were NOT in ignorance.

The very reason Revelation was written was to SHOW unto His servants the signs directly preceding Christ's imminent return to their generation. In Revelation 1:1, it says that God told this information to Jesus, who passed it to John, who was writing it to SHOW unto God's people in those days what would SOON come to pass.

Those who were deceived by the cares of this life and who were not watching were the ones caught unawares. But not the wise in 1 Thess. 5:4-6 who WERE "awake" and watching in those days. Everything those watchful believers were told was coming actually did come to pass in the order in which they were foretold. Those believers were ready, either to flee Judea and Jerusalem, or to give up their lives in martyrdom, and participate in the AD 70 resurrection. Those who "lost" their life for Christ "found" it in that year's resurrection.

I listened to a good portion of your first video link. It sounds as if the speaker recognizes that "Jerusalem surrounded by armies" WAS Daniel's "abomination of desolation" , by comparing Luke 21:20 with the other gospel accounts.
No, the eschatological events simply haven't yet occurred. Trying to make other events into fulfillments of those prophecies is trying to drive a square peg into a round hole.
 
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robycop3

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"NOT ALL" MEANS "NONE" in both 1 Cor. 15:51 and 1 John 2:19.

If you truly are familiar with the Greek usage in 1 Cor. 15:51, then you would know that absolutes, such as "all", and negatives, such as "none" are rather slippery to translate in connection to their referents, and can easily result in misunderstanding and mistranslations. The context of 1 Cor. 15:51 goes on to describe the process of the "change" to the incorruptible, only for the bodies of the DEAD saints - not a translation-type change for the living. And you are totally ignoring the rule found in Hebrews 9:27 that "it is appointed unto men ONCE TO DIE, and after that the judgment". If a translation-type of change was to be expected at the rapture for all the living saints on earth, this would make Hebrews 9:27 into a lie. Are you prepared to explain this contradiction scripturally?
Sir, every English bible translation I know of reads, "We shall not all sleep" or likewise. I believe a host of Koine Greek translators who do it for a living know a little more about it than someone who reads a little bit from a lexicon.
 
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robycop3

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Your opinion that none were dominant is an unlearned one. Centuries of developing the proper guidelines and the passage of time have led expositors to discern the imagery of the churches in tracing the history of the church. Each church has a pronounced theme, such as the ability to discern apostles in the first church of Ephesus, which is certainly indicative of the early rise of the church. The theme of the second church, Smyrna, is their persecution and martyrdom, which soon followed up until the time of the emperor Constantine, the most severe lasting during the reign of Diocletian. The theme of the following church, Pergamos, is that they dwelt in the seat of Satan and how many were seduced by this fraternization, this being acknowledged also by the preponderance of even secular historians concerning the conversion of the Roman empire to Christianity; the empire continued in many respects with pagan idolatry. And the illustrations of Thyatira have led contemporary historicists to interpret Jezebel as the papacy. This is just a cursory development, which relegates your opinion as unsupported.
Pure guesswork. You must subscribe to the hooey of Darby & William Branham. Aside from the RCC, there was no dominant "Christian" church for a long time, and certainly no period where the types of the 7 Rev churches were each dominant. As I said, outside of the RCC, there's always been examples of all those church types existing at once ever since Jesus called them out, & there still is today. The "7 church ages" theory is bunk.
 
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Sir, every English bible translation I know of reads, "We shall not all sleep" or likewise. I believe a host of Koine Greek translators who do it for a living know a little more about it than someone who reads a little bit from a lexicon.

I am comparing the English KJV with itself to prove my point. "We shall NOT all sleep" in I Cor. 15:51 is the very same type phrasing as "They were NOT all of us" in 1 John 2:19, which was referring to the antichrists that had all gone out from among the congregation.

If your interpretation of "We shall NOT all sleep" allows for some exceptions who wouldn't die, but whose living bodies would be translated for the rapture, then to be consistent, you must ALSO allow that there were some exceptions among the group of antichrists leaving the congregation in 1 John 2:19 who really were "OF US", and counted as one of the believers. Use a little logic here, robycop3. It requires no lexicon whatever; just a simple comparison of scripture with scripture.

NONE of those antichrists leaving the congregation in 1 John 2:19 belonged in fellowship with the believers.
Also, NONE of those saints addressed in 1 Cor. 15:51 would sleep in the grave forever, but they would ALL be changed into the incorruptible. The reassurance was given that not a single dead saint's body would be left behind in the grave.
 
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No, the eschatological events simply haven't yet occurred. Trying to make other events into fulfillments of those prophecies is trying to drive a square peg into a round hole.

My dear vociferous friend from GCF, you are still clanging the same cymbal over and over on both websites, without even looking at the scripture proof presented to you. You are interpreting all things by the limits of your own experience and the encyclopedias you say you consult for evidence. Scripture's internal testimony overrides both of these things, and is corroborated by matching historical records, which you claim don't exist.
 
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robycop3

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I am comparing the English KJV with itself to prove my point. "We shall NOT all sleep" in I Cor. 15:51 is the very same type phrasing as "They were NOT all of us" in 1 John 2:19, which was referring to the antichrists that had all gone out from among the congregation.

If your interpretation of "We shall NOT all sleep" allows for some exceptions who wouldn't die, but whose living bodies would be translated for the rapture, then to be consistent, you must ALSO allow that there were some exceptions among the group of antichrists leaving the congregation in 1 John 2:19 who really were "OF US", and counted as one of the believers. Use a little logic here, robycop3. It requires no lexicon whatever; just a simple comparison of scripture with scripture.

NONE of those antichrists leaving the congregation in 1 John 2:19 belonged in fellowship with the believers.
Also, NONE of those saints addressed in 1 Cor. 15:51 would sleep in the grave forever, but they would ALL be changed into the incorruptible. The reassurance was given that not a single dead saint's body would be left behind in the grave.
And when the rapture occurs, the still-living saints will be translated into their heavenly bodies.

As for men being appointed to die once, the beast & false prophet will be cast ALIVE into hell without dying.
 
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robycop3

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My dear vociferous friend from GCF, you are still clanging the same cymbal over and over on both websites, without even looking at the scripture proof presented to you. You are interpreting all things by the limits of your own experience and the encyclopedias you say you consult for evidence. Scripture's internal testimony overrides both of these things, and is corroborated by matching historical records, which you claim don't exist.
OK, show them to us. And please, don't bring up Josephus' stuff. He wrote to keep Vespasian, then, Titus, happy, & used some enhancements & embellishments to do it.
 
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Jerryhuerta

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Pure guesswork. You must subscribe to the hooey of Darby & William Branham. Aside from the RCC, there was no dominant "Christian" church for a long time, and certainly no period where the types of the 7 Rev churches were each dominant. As I said, outside of the RCC, there's always been examples of all those church types existing at once ever since Jesus called them out, & there still is today. The "7 church ages" theory is bunk.

As a futurist you are the one that subscribes to the hooey of Darby, not I. And you’re evading that your own futurists, ones that are actually published, hold to the prophetic view of the seven churches (Scofield, Lindsey, and Lahaye). You're entitled to your own opinion, but when it comes to the truth, those who hold mere opinions are in an ill way as compared to those who have knowledge. Holding the historical knowledge of the history of the church substantiates tremendous correspondence between what the seven churches state and the history of the church in this age. That's not just my opinion but the fruit of the knowledge of the history of the Church, which many learned scholars hold.
 
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Ed Parenteau

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Common-sense PERCEPTION is NOT adding to Scripture.
It is if there's no relationship to anything written in scripture. The dead watching us is not taught in scripture. As the scripture does say, the "dead know not anything".
 
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robycop3

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As a futurist you are the one that subscribes to the hooey of Darby, not I. And you’re evading that your own futurists, ones that are actually published, hold to the prophetic view of the seven churches (Scofield, Lindsey, and Lahaye). You're entitled to your own opinion, but when it comes to the truth, those who hold mere opinions are in an ill way as compared to those who have knowledge. Holding the historical knowledge of the history of the church substantiates tremendous correspondence between what the seven churches state and the history of the church in this age. That's not just my opinion but the fruit of the knowledge of the history of the Church, which many learned scholars hold.
There have been m,any outlines of the various "church ages" made, but none are correct. Types of all 7 of those churches have existed since those churches did, and exist today. You need another doctrine to support, as "7 church ages" is false.
 
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robycop3

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It is if there's no relationship to anything written in scripture. The dead watching us is not taught in scripture. As the scripture does say, the "dead know not anything".
But Jesus will enable those who pierced Him to see His return, or Rev. 1:7 is not true.
 
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And when the rapture occurs, the still-living saints will be translated into their heavenly bodies.

As for men being appointed to die once, the beast & false prophet will be cast ALIVE into hell without dying.

There is NO "rapture" text that promises this so-called translation of the still-living saints. This is a fabrication that has unfortunately prevailed in modern-day thinking. It runs totally counter to the Hebrew 9:27 rule that "it is appointed unto men ONCE to die, and after this the judgment".

You are mistaken that this Hebrews 9:27 rule was set aside for the Beast and the False Prophet thrown ALIVE into Hell. That's NOT what Revelation 19:20 says. It says that both of them were "thrown alive into A LAKE OF FIRE burning with brimstone". The "Lake of Fire" is NOT Hell, because scripture tells us that both Hell and Death themselves were thrown into the Lake of Fire (Revelation 20:14). Hell cannot be thrown into itself. These are two different things.

People's concept of what the "Lake of Fire" actually is needs considerable revision. God tells us WHERE the "Lake of Fire" or the "Furnace of fire" was to be located. It was IN THE CITY OF JERUSALEM, according to Isaiah 31:9. In that verse, the Lord said that His "FIRE IS IN ZION, AND HIS FURNACE IN JERUSALEM."

As you remember, the "Furnace of fire" was where there was going to be wailing and gnashing of teeth in Matthew 13:42. This is the same thing as the Lake of Fire in Revelation 19:20. And it was to be in the city of Jerusalem itself. The Lake of Fire was NOT intended to portray a realm of eternal torment in the afterlife. It was a LOCAL site of judgment, functioning within a finite period that ended, since the city of Jerusalem today is not still flaming with brimstone.

Your deductions about the presumed translation of still-living people need correction in order to align with scripture.
 
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OK, show them to us. And please, don't bring up Josephus' stuff. He wrote to keep Vespasian, then, Titus, happy, & used some enhancements & embellishments to do it.

I have shown you before a generous sampling of historical records on the other GCF website, and you have simply brushed them aside as not being included in your encyclopedia's content (which are a type of condensed "cliff's notes" versions of history, and are not exhaustive in content).

Off the top of my head, I remember using Tacitus, Seneca, Quadratus, Eusebius, Ussher, ancient seismic records for Israel and the Mediterranean, the Syriac Peshitta, current archaeological evidences, etc., as well as Josephus for providing proof of Revelation's prophetic material having been fulfilled. It is really strange that you reject Josephus's eye-witness accounts of that era. He was the high priest Matthias's son, you know, with a thorough education of his people's history, and a front-row seat to the first-century AD 70 era events described in Revelation. In any court case, this eye-witness testimony would be given serious consideration, regardless of Titus becoming his patron.
 
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Ed Parenteau

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But Jesus will enable those who pierced Him to see His return, or Rev. 1:7 is not true.
The reason they added the 7 church ages to the Bible, is the exact same reason you added "Jesus will enable those who pierced Him to see His return". Both are added to scripture for the same reason--the assumption that futurism is true. The church at Philadelphia was told "10Because you have kept My word of perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of the testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who live on the earth. 11I am coming quickly; hold firmly to what you have, so that no one will take your crown."
The church at Philadelphia no longer exists. Only Smyrna has a church now.
As the book of Hebrews says:
37FOR YET IN A VERY LITTLE WHILE,

HE WHO IS COMING WILL COME, AND WILL NOT DELAY.
 
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