Preterism-phony as a Ford Corvette

[Douggg]

So, you think it will literally be split in half, eh? Can't possibly be any symbolism there? Do you think we should take the following passage all literally as well?

The Mt. of Olives will be literally split because... the Jews flee through the valley created.

4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

 

[Ed Parenteau]

Are you forgetting that Jesus left physically & visibly, that the angels present at His ascent said He will return IN LIKE MANNER, and that Jesus Himself said He will return IN GREAT POWER & GLORY, adding in Rev. 1:7 that every eye will see Him, even the eyes of those who pierced Him?

Yes, Jesus is SPIRITUALLY with me, & is Spiritually present wherever/whenever 2 or more are gathered in His name. I believe that includes electronically, so, we'd all better watch what we post on Christian sites.

Those who pierced Him have long been dead. And they are the same ones Jesus told would see Him coming on the clouds. Coming on the clouds is a euphemism for judgement.
The same phrase is used in Matthew 23: 37“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who have been sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way (hon tropon) a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.
Not only that, but if you're going to insist it being exactly the same way, then you can't erase the fact that the disciples were the ones standing there watching.
But in reality, they saw Him go "into heaven" in a cloud out of their sight. And therefore, He would come back in a cloud "out of their sight" which perfectly harmonizes with all the other verses I gave you.

 

[eclipsenow]

There are a couple of preterist "safe houses" here where prets can post their stuff free of counterposts. However, I KNOW preterism is false, both partial and full. And here's how I know:

Full preterism is false because it's VERY-OBVIOUS Jesus hasn't returned. When He does return, He will be seen by all, as He said He will take over the rule of the world after casting the antichrist & false prophet alive into hell. He and His saints will reign over the earth for 1K years. And obviously, that hasn't occurred yet. if you think it has, please tell us the beast/antichrist's name, the date he took power, the name of his sidekick the false prophet, and describe the mark of the beast.

He hasn't returned yet - correct - but I reject all the other baggage you attach to his return.

Partial is false because Jesus said He'd return IMMEDIATELY AFTER the great trib. If the trib has already occurred, Jesus is long-overdue !

I wonder where your getting 'immediately' from? It seems you have a certain reading of a certain Olivet discourse verse to argue something that Amils and Partial Preterists simply don't think is a thing in the first place.

I have in front of me the Encyclopaedia Britannica, Collier's, & World Book encyclopediae. And the occurrence of those events is NOT found in ANY of them.
Why?
They simply HAVEN'T YET OCCURRED !

That's because you don't understand the symbolism in Revelation. EG: "A third of them died..." means not mathematics, but that in God's grace the judgement of that particular natural disaster more survied than didn't. There are stacks and stacks of symbols in Revelation, because John is actually preaching to HIS generation about THEIR 'tribulation' which he says in Chapter 1 he shared in! We are in the tribulation, and have been for 2000 years. It's just that American eschatology has been so influenced by the "Left Behind" series that their 'tribulation' must be some huge global set of occurrences. They don't understand the symbols in Revelation and Olivet, so all the encouragements to godly living in Revelation - and the application to Christians in natural disasters, or North Korea, or Afghanistan, or even 2000 years ago under the Romans are ALL ignored!

I mean, as IF John would write to his generation about to undergo Roman persecution and say "You guys think you've got it rough - wait till I tell you about what's going to happen in 2000 years!"

 

[Timtofly]

John claims that Satan in great wrath had at that time come down to the earth and the sea (the land of Israel and the Gentile nations) for a "short time". What is a "short time" but a "little season"? The same "little season" of Satan's being loosed after the millennium?



This is a common misperception. It's actually the other way around. Scripture never says that they were martyred and THEN AFTER THAT lived and reigned along with Christ. All that Revelation 20:4 means is that during their lifetime on earth as children of faith, that each of those mentioned had shared at some point of the 1,000-year phase in the increased benefits when Christ had Satan bound. Some of them "lived and reigned" (or "reigned in life by one Christ" - Rom. 5:17) without having to be martyred during their natural lifetime. Some were martyred, but not all. John saw both kinds of these souls.

I wouldn't get hung up on the whole "beheaded" word. There is another Greek word that specifically means "decapitation", but it isn't the word used here in Revelation 20:4.



No, that's not the case. Satan was LOOSED on earth when the "First resurrection" of Christ and the 144,000 First-fruits Matt. 27 group was raised in AD 33. He and his angels were kicked out of heaven for all time, and cast down to the earth then, at the point when the newly-resurrected Christ had ascended and become the saints' high priest representative for all time. With Christ becoming our "advocate" on high, Satan had no judicial right to accuse the brethren anymore, and was thrown out of heaven's "court room".

It's very, very simple. The Rev. 20 millennium ended when Christ ascended and the Devil descended. Easy to remember.

I think I will stick with the Word of God, and not your translation of God's Word.

 

[3 Resurrections]

I think I will stick with the Word of God, and not your translation of God's Word.

Please explain, then, why a "short time" would be different from a "little season". Because the simple comparison of these two phrases tells me they are speaking of the same time period of Satan's release.

I wonder where your getting 'immediately' from?

He gets this straight from Matthew 24:29-30. "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened,.....And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."

No one seems to be able to explain why the Great Tribulation was going to have a long period of history following it in which no type of tribulation would ever duplicate the former Great Tribulation ("...No, nor ever shall be."), yet Christ's return was going to take place "IMMEDIATELY AFTER the tribulation of those days..." How can Christ's final, end-of-the-world return be one that occurs "IMMEDIATELY AFTER" the Great Tribulation, yet history keeps marching forward for a long while AFTER the Great Tribulation? These things seem contradictory.

The answer is that Christ was going to return for a second coming back in AD 70, "IMMEDIATELY AFTER the Great Tribulation years between AD 66 and 70,and He would also plan a THIRD coming in our future, with a long period of Christian tribulation episodes occurring over the time in between Christ's second and third comings. It's the only possible answer that reconciles the apparently contradictory messages in Matthew 24:21 and Matthew 24:29-30.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Those who pierced Him have long been dead. And they are the same ones Jesus told would see Him coming on the clouds. Coming on the clouds is a euphemism for judgement.
The same phrase is used in Matthew 23: 37“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who have been sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way (hon tropon) a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.
Not only that, but if you're going to insist it being exactly the same way, then you can't erase the fact that the disciples were the ones standing there watching.
But in reality, they saw Him go "into heaven" in a cloud out of their sight. And therefore, He would come back in a cloud "out of their sight" which perfectly harmonizes with all the other verses I gave you.

The 11 disciples were direct material witnesses to the ascension of Jesus Christ up from the earth toward heaven. This passage tells us it is the actual “manner” or tropos (meaning style or mode) of His glorious ascent into heaven that will be the way He will return. How did He go?

Literally, physically, visibly.

•Physically: “This same Jesus.”
•Visibly: “while they beheld,” “they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up” and “as ye have seen Him go.”
•Literally: “In like manner.”

Contrary to Pretrib and Preterist beliefs, the second coming of Christ is not a secret event. Such a mistaken view emanates from a wrong understanding of Scripture. Revelation 1:7 declares: “Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him” (Revelation 1:7).

Did every eye see Jesus coming back in AD70? Of course not! That is absurd!

Upon His appearing, did the Jews wail over Him? Of course not! That is absurd! Equally, did the Gentiles also wail because of him? Of course not! That is absurd!

Here we see the most public event of all time - the literal, visible, physical return of the Lord Jesus Christ. This passage unmistakably shows that the glorious Second Advent will be the most amazing public event ever. To such an extent that “every eye shall see him.”

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Well, we can compare this "LITTLE season" with the "LONG season" in Joshua 24:7 of 40 years of wilderness wanderings for the Israelites. Joshua and God considered 40 years a LONG set period of time to fulfill God's particular purpose for them.

So, a "LITTLE season" would necessarily have to be a set time period of shorter duration than a long season. In other words, a "SHORT time" for Satan to be loosed would last less than 40 years. The only distinction between "kairos" and "chronon" is that "kairos" carries the added implication that God has designed a special purpose for that set-apart period of appointed time. Both of these terms apply to the appointed short amount of time that Satan was being allowed to wage war against the saints as John was writing Revelation.

It looks like you missed the point, so I'm going to have to spell this out to you. I was talking mostly about the Greek words translated as "short" and "little" in those passages and not about the words translated as "time" and "season".

The Greek word translated as "short" in Revelation 12:12 is "oligos" (Strong's G3641). That word is used in this verse:

Matthew 22:14 For many are called, but few (Greek: oligos) are chosen.

Jesus was not saying that literally a small number of people are chosen. Many people are chosen overall, but the number is relatively few in comparison to how many are called.

So, the "short time" that Satan had after he was cast out of heaven long ago was not a literally short amount of time, but was a limited amount of time. We know that he won't be able to make war against Christians forever because he will be cast into the lake of fire (Rev 20:10).

The Greek word translated as "little" in Revelation 20:3 (in relation to Satan's little season) is not oligos, but instead is "mikros" (Strong's G3398) and that word does refer to a literally small number. That time period occurs when the thousand years are over. That is not the same time period that Revelation 12:12 references.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Please explain, then, why a "short time" would be different from a "little season". Because the simple comparison of these two phrases tells me they are speaking of the same time period of Satan's release.



He gets this straight from Matthew 24:29-30. "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened,.....And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."

No one seems to be able to explain why the Great Tribulation was going to have a long period of history following it in which no type of tribulation would ever duplicate the former Great Tribulation ("...No, nor ever shall be."), yet Christ's return was going to take place "IMMEDIATELY AFTER the tribulation of those days..." How can Christ's final, end-of-the-world return be one that occurs "IMMEDIATELY AFTER" the Great Tribulation, yet history keeps marching forward for a long while AFTER the Great Tribulation? These things seem contradictory.

The answer is that Christ was going to return for a second coming back in AD 70, "IMMEDIATELY AFTER the Great Tribulation years between AD 66 and 70,and He would also plan a THIRD coming in our future, with a long period of Christian tribulation episodes occurring over the time in between Christ's second and third comings. It's the only possible answer that reconciles the apparently contradictory messages in Matthew 24:21 and Matthew 24:29-30.

You seem to be forgetting that Luke 21 is also an account of the Olivet Discourse. If you read verse 24 you should that there would be a time period called "the times of the Gentiles" that would occur AFTER the local tribulation occurred in Jerusalem which we agree occurred in 70 AD.

According to Luke, Jesus was not going to return after the tribulation in Jerusalem in 70 AD but rather would return at the end of the "times of the Gentiles" when the "distress of nations" would occur. His return will correspond with global tribulation, not tribulation in Jerusalem.

Luke 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. 22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. 24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. 25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; 26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. 27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

So, Luke 21:20 through the first half of verse 24 refers to the local tribulation that would occur in and around Jerusalem. That occurred around 70 AD. From that point on is what is called "the times of the Gentiles".

And then Luke 21 talks about the "distress of nations" and people's "hearts failing them for fear" because of "those things which are coming on the earth. That is clearly referring to global tribulation rather than just tribulation in Jerusalem, so that is clearly referring to a different event than is described in Luke 21:20-24. It is after the tribulation of THOSE days (described in the second half of verse 24 through verse 26) that Jesus will return. There was no "distress of nations" in 70 AD.

There was only the distress of one nation at that time. The "distress of nations" will happen in the future just prior to Christ's return.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Begging your pardon, SJ, but that distinction between "short" and "little" makes no difference in the meaning intended. A "FEW" (oligos) years of time is the equivalent of a "LITTLE" (mikros) season of time - which would have to be shorter than a "long season" of 40 years, by scripture's estimation in Joshua 24:7

Again, this is the very same period being spoken of in both Revelation 12:12 and Revelation 20:3 when Satan was released on earth after the millennium expired.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Begging your pardon, SJ, but that distinction between "short" and "little" makes no difference in the meaning intended.

Sure it does. You are assuming that the "short" time of Revelation 12:12 has to be referring to a literally short amount of time and I showed otherwise. If you don't want to acknowledge the meaning of the Greek words than that is on you.

 

[robycop3]

When is the person who is the beast mortally wounded and comes back to life - before or after going into the temple, sitting claiming to be God ?

Before, to make his claim more-credible to the masses. He will be famous before he's wounded.

Just imagine what people woulda thought if JFK, who had 1/3 of his brains scattered about by a rifle shot, would've survived that & recovered !

 

[robycop3]

I believe you are right in this statement above. Which only proves you are wrong about Christ not having returned once already. Because He said to the disciples that He would "receive you unto myself, that where I am, there ye may be also". This is echoed in the rapture text of I Thess. 4. The resurrected saints would "meet the Lord in the air", and return to heaven with Him. On that occasion, Christ WOULD NOT REMAIN ON EARTH - HE WOULD LEAVE WITH THE RESURRECTED SAINTS AND RETURN TO HEAVEN.

This necessitates yet ANOTHER RETURN OF CHRIST in our future if He is to remain on earth, since none of the bodies of the saints are to be left behind in the dust of the grave.

No, the rapture won't be His return. He will call the saints to meet Him in the sky. No one else will see Him, I doubt. They'll come to Him, not He to them. Later, they'll accompany Him when He does physically return.

 

[robycop3]

Yes.


Which isn't at all "IN LIKE MANNER" as He left.


Weird.

"In like manner" means He will physically & visible descend. Remember, it's "LIKE" manner, not "exactly the same" manner.

 

[3 Resurrections]

His return will correspond with global tribulation, not tribulation in Jerusalem.

YES, indeed it did back in the "beginning of sorrows" period throughout the world, just prior to the Great Tribulation breaking out in AD 66 for Judea and Jerusalem in particular for those "days of vengeance." You remember, Christ told the Philadelphia church in Revelation 3:10 that "...I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which is ABOUT TO COME upon ALL THE WORLD, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Those "timeS of the Gentiles" was the specific 42 months when the Gentiles were treading underfoot Jerusalem and the Temple. This 42 months was a "time, times, and half a time", amounting to 3-1/2 years. This was the Zealot period of suppressing Jerusalem and trashing it and the Temple, even before Rome arrived in AD 70. The Zealot's rebellion originated in "Galilee of the GENTILES", and spread over all Israel with its effects.

There is one very important verse in Luke 21 at the very end of Christ's prophecy that sums up ALL the events listed in Luke 21. Christ told the disciples in Luke 21:36, "Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape ALL THESE THINGS that ARE ABOUT TO COME TO PASS, and to stand before the Son of man." Notice: EVERYTHING in the list Christ had just gone over with he disciples was all included in what was "ABOUT TO COME TO PASS" - in THAT generation, which would not pass until ALL of that was fulfilled.

 

[robycop3]

I didn't forget, because they saw Him go into heaven when a cloud took Him out of their sight. That's exactly what Jesus told those who pierced Him. Matthew 26:Jesus said to him, “You have said so. But I tell you, from now on you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power and coming on the clouds of heaven.” Which is exactly what Rev 1:7 says: "Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so. Amen." Nothing about Him descending from the clouds to the earth with His disciples watching Him in His flesh. That would contradict when He told the disciples they would no longer know Him after the flesh.

But He shall descend physically & visibly as he left, only He will be in His heavenly body, in great power & glory as He said, and all will see Him, on earth and from hades.

I've had some idiots ask, "How can everyone on earth see Him at once?" If man can broadcast the Super Bowl all over earth by satellite TV as it happens, how much more-easily & powerfully can Jesus broadcast His return all over earth as it happens? (And in hades as well?)

 

[robycop3]

Those who pierced Him have long been dead. And they are the same ones Jesus told would see Him coming on the clouds. Coming on the clouds is a euphemism for judgement.
The same phrase is used in Matthew 23: 37“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who have been sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way (hon tropon) a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.
Not only that, but if you're going to insist it being exactly the same way, then you can't erase the fact that the disciples were the ones standing there watching.
But in reality, they saw Him go "into heaven" in a cloud out of their sight. And therefore, He would come back in a cloud "out of their sight" which perfectly harmonizes with all the other verses I gave you.

The description of Jesus' ascent is literal, not symbolic. Just as we observe an aircraft vanish into a cloud, Jesus likewise did. And just as an aircraft emerges from a cloud, Jesus will exit a cloud as He descends.

 

[robycop3]

He hasn't returned yet - correct - but I reject all the other baggage you attach to his return.

Then you're rejecting Scripture, not robycop3.

I wonder where your getting 'immediately' from? It seems you have a certain reading of a certain Olivet discourse verse to argue something that Amils and Partial Preterists simply don't think is a thing in the first place.

Matt. 24:29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those daysthe sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [/COLOR]

That's because you don't understand the symbolism in Revelation. EG: "A third of them died..." means not mathematics, but that in God's grace the judgement of that particular natural disaster more survied than didn't. There are stacks and stacks of symbols in Revelation, because John is actually preaching to HIS generation about THEIR 'tribulation' which he says in Chapter 1 he shared in! We are in the tribulation, and have been for 2000 years. It's just that American eschatology has been so influenced by the "Left Behind" series that their 'tribulation' must be some huge global set of occurrences. They don't understand the symbols in Revelation and Olivet, so all the encouragements to godly living in Revelation - and the application to Christians in natural disasters, or North Korea, or Afghanistan, or even 2000 years ago under the Romans are ALL ignored!

Matt. 24:4 And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many. 6 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

These things have been occurring for centuries now, and are intensifying now. Prets reduce "inconvenient" Scriptures that they know haven't yet been fulfilled to "figurative/symbolic" status to try to sustain their false doctrine.

I mean, as IF John would write to his generation about to undergo Roman persecution and say "You guys think you've got it rough - wait till I tell you about what's going to happen in 2000 years!"

Well, apparently he DID. Jesus certainly hasn't returned, nor has the AOD, coming of the antichrist, mark of the beast, etc. occurred, either.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Begging your pardon, SJ, but that distinction between "short" and "little" makes no difference in the meaning intended. A "FEW" (oligos) years of time is the equivalent of a "LITTLE" (mikros) season of time - which would have to be shorter than a "long season" of 40 years, by scripture's estimation in Joshua 24:7

Again, this is the very same period being spoken of in both Revelation 12:12 and Revelation 20:3 when Satan was released on earth after the millennium expired.

When did the millennium start? What triggered it and when did it end? What happened during it? What marked it?

 

[sovereigngrace]

Then you're rejecting Scripture, not robycop3.



Matt. 24:29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days[/U the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.




Matt. 24:4 And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many. 6 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

These things have been occurring for centuries now, and are intensifying now. Prets reduce "inconvenient" Scriptures that they know haven't yet been fulfilled to "figurative/symbolic" status to try to sustain their false doctrine.



Well, apparently he DID. Jesus certainly hasn't returned, nor has the AOD, coming of the antichrist, mark of the beast, etc. occurred, either.[/QUOTE]

There is the great tribulation that arrived with Titus, as Jesus verified, and the tribulation that precedes the return of Christ. Futurists and Preterists each misapply one.

 

[robycop3]

These things have been occurring for centuries now, and are intensifying now. Prets reduce "inconvenient" Scriptures that they know haven't yet been fulfilled to "figurative/symbolic" status to try to sustain their false doctrine.



Well, apparently he DID. Jesus certainly hasn't returned, nor has the AOD, coming of the antichrist, mark of the beast, etc. occurred, either.

There is the great tribulation that arrived with Titus, as Jesus verified, and the tribulation that precedes the return of Christ. Futurists and Preterists each misapply one.[/QUOTE]
The events of 66-70 AD were the fulfilling of the "days of vengeance" Jesus proclaimed against that generation of Jews. The great trib will be worldwide.