Did Jesus save us from God?

[Ceallaigh]

How ought we respond to antagonistic people? I’m not the most receptive person myself.

you’d say (mostly every Christian that is) “we ought respond in love without judging”, but how so ?? Personally - I have two sides, I’m conflicted…
One side says give benefit of doubt - you don’t know what they are struggling with.
The other side says cut them loose straight away. Only a fool gets sucked into pointless arguments.

I don’t know what’s right haha

We're all brothers and sisters. I just look at it as sibling rivalry and family bickering.

 

[Aussie Pete]

In an earlier topic, the majority of Christian posters said they would not follow Jesus if there was no afterlife. What do you make of that?

Sure. I was no different. I got saved to save my skin. The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. What bugs me is that many Christians don't seem to get the full picture. There is vastly more to the Christian life than forgiveness of sin or not sinning. Like the writer to the Hebrews said, surely it's time to get moving? (Hebrews 6:1) Or do Christians want to stay spiritual infants all their time on earth?

 

[DamianWarS]

"Did Jesus save us from God?" seems to be a common question/saying among those who believe in universal salvation.

But Romans 5:9 seems to indicate that's exactly what happened:

"Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him"

salvation is from his wrath but the purpose of his salvation is not so we can stand on a rock and say we are saved, the purpose is restored relationship with God so salvation itself is a product to something greater not the goal. Sin puts us on the path of his wrath... and all have sinned so all are on that path, Christ removes us from that path.

I think of God's wrath like an intense all-consuming fire and us as a scrap of paper. no matter how pristine that paper is or how tainted it is it's going to burn up just the same and the paper doesn't stand a chance. But Christ transforms us so that the consuming fire is no longer something that will harm destroy or cause death but rather something that will heal, restore and cause life. if we are a scrap of paper we should fear this wrath, if we are a flame ourselves we would rejoice in this wrath.

 

[Confused-by-christianity]

We're all brothers and sisters. I just look at it as sibling rivalry and family bickering.

Haha
So long as no one is burning each other at the stake over it ;-)

 

[Confused-by-christianity]

salvation is from his wrath ....

(Note: Below - I assume God's wrath is like a righteous punishment for the purposes of discussion.)
I've been struggling (in a good way) with that idea.

You'd think if God is perfect in every way: Then His wrath is perfect.
He should not stop His wrath for any purpose - that would show that His wrath wasn't perfect answer in that circumstance. If God's wrath wasn't perfect then God is not perfect. That's not possible.

If God declared His wrath for your sin only - then only your sin ought be attacked by it. You should be separated from your sin and your sin destroyed.

If God declared His wrath for you. Then someone else cannot step in and take your place - otherwise His wrath is imperfect - It is satisfied by replacement of guilty with innocent.

You can't say God can do with His wrath as He pleases because that opens God up to whims. It attacks the integrity of God and His judgement.

Something has to be incorrect here - perhaps it's the whole concept of God's wrath?

 

[Confused-by-christianity]

I think of God's wrath like an intense all-consuming fire and us as a scrap of paper. no matter how pristine that paper is or how tainted it is it's going to burn up just the same and the paper doesn't stand a chance. But Christ transforms us so that the consuming fire is no longer something that will harm destroy or cause death but rather something that will heal, restore and cause life. if we are a scrap of paper we should fear this wrath, if we are a flame ourselves we would rejoice in this wrath.

That's an interesting image.
An intense all consuming fire sounds more like God's nature. It doesn't sound like something punishing as such. It sounds like you think about God's wrath like - God is so awesome that if you ever stood in the presence of God - you'd be awestruck enough that your head would explode haha
Jesus changes us in some way that - our heads don't explode haha
I like your material imagery as well. It's easy to understand that God's wrath is a material that in the presence of some things, can burn them up. Jesus makes our material identical to God's material.

I really like your way of thinking about it. It helps add some understanding.

 

[Confused-by-christianity]

You're the quintessential antagonist in these kinds of threads.

HA - Quintessential
The other day, I was watching some people eating outside, at a table. Maybe a BBQ or a Pub meal or something like that.
I was watching thinking, this scene is weird, something is missing.

I couldn't quite put my finger on what...

It dawned on me.
It was missing a Wasp.

Every outdoor pub meal or BBQ comes with a Wasp haha
(I don't know if you have that in the states?)

Your comment about these threads coming with a quintessential antagonist reminded me of that haha

 

[Ceallaigh]

HA - Quintessential
The other day, I was watching some people eating outside, at a table. Maybe a BBQ or a Pub meal or something like that.
I was watching thinking, this scene is weird, something is missing.

I couldn't quite put my finger on what...

It dawned on me.
It was missing a WASP.

Every outdoor pub meal or BBQ comes with a Wasp haha
(I don't know if you have that in the states?)

Your comment about these threads coming with a quintessential antagonist reminded me of that haha

Yep, we have WASPs here too.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Gads! What a nightmare of an avatar!

Where ya' been? Long time no see.

Oh, I've been here all along. I just had to send my yellow and black suit to the cleaners ...

 

[Confused-by-christianity]

Oh, I've been here all along. I just had to send my yellow and black suit to the cleaners ...

Ghost Rider !!!

 

[Confused-by-christianity]

Yep, we have WASPs here too.

Ruining your BBQ's or outdoor meals !!!

 

[GreekOrthodox]

This WASP is willing to show up to a pub if someone is buying!

 

[Confused-by-christianity]

This WASP is willing to show up to a pub if someone is buying!

Haha
Someone (else) is buying I think

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Yes, God can't be both loving and sadistic. Trying to believe that he is will either lead to a moral dilemma which can be severe or to rejecting faith in him altogether.

Well, one thing that drew me to Christianity in the first place when I read the New Testament was to know that God is loving; it was also to know that He is Holy, Just and Righteous.

But even though I knew God could punish people, I never thought of that as 'sadistic.' Besides, if God didn't judge people and remove them from Heaven going into Eternity, then we'd have a Heaven with folks there not only like you, Paul the Apostle and Billy Graham, but also Hitler and Mussolini types hanging-out there as well, bantering incessantly over in the corner about how bad the rest of us all look... and for me, that wouldn't quite be a Heaven (or a Renewed Earth--or whatever it's all going to be, etc. etc. etc.) filled with the joy of Jesus. Would it be for you?

 

[The Liturgist]

Ruining your BBQ's or outdoor meals !!!

Just FYI, as something a British person might not be aware of, in the United States, WASP when capitalized stands for “White Anglo-Saxon Protestant.”

 

[Confused-by-christianity]

Just FYI, as something a British person might not be aware of, in the United States, WASP when capitalized stands for “White Anglo-Saxon Protestant.”

That is for a group of people who intend on being racist??

I have edited the post - thank you ;-)

 

[Saint Steven]

Haha
Someone (else) is buying I think

I'm not buying any of this!
It was free anyway, so no worries. - lol

 

[Saint Steven]

This WASP is willing to show up to a pub if someone is buying!

Yet another benefit for befriending the Orthodox. (they're generous and hospitable)

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

Not from God, but from God's wrath. It is a vital distinction. He also saved us to God. We are adopted into His family. So much focus is on the negatives and not nearly enough on the positives of salvation.

Since He is the Savior and the One who we must give an account at the Judgment seat of Christ , He is also the one who delivers the Wrath of the Lamb at His 2nd Coming in vengeance. Revelation 6 and Revelation 14. The terrifying Day of the Lord told by many OT prophets and Jesus tells us in Matthew 24. The Lord will Judge His people. Its a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the Living God. Vengeance is Mine and I will repay says the Lord. Hebrews 10. Jesus told us the Father judges no one and has given all Judgment to the Son, John 5.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Clare73]

I haven't made a statement yet.

Are you sure about that?

"Did Jesus save us from God?" seems to be a common question/saying among those who believe in universal salvation.

But Romans 5:9 seems to indicate that's exactly what happened:

"Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him"

And who's we and our?

That would be the readers of your post.

The whole counsel of God can't really be summed up in a single verse. In this case really a single word in a single verse.

No kidding, Sherlock.

You're the ones putting yourselves in plurals, not me.

Yes, grammatically "readers" is plural. . .

What's the weather like on your planet?

An opportunity missed. . .

That's about all of this fun I can stand.