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Actually the Millennium started with a resurrection in Revelation 20:4-5.

That's not what Revelation 12:12 says. It gives us the information that the millennium was already ended at that point when John was writing, because Satan was already loosed for that "short time" on earth. Which "short time" or "little season" was going to happen once the millennium had expired.
 
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That's different from none left in the nations.

God put a time limit on that prophecy by saying "NOW will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel..." That "NOW" was God telling the prophet Ezekiel what the next thing on the prophetic calendar would be for Ezekiel's people, following their captivity under the Babylonians.
 
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Douggg

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God put a time limit on that prophecy by saying "NOW will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel..." That "NOW" was God telling the prophet Ezekiel what the next thing on the prophetic calendar would be for Ezekiel's people, following their captivity under the Babylonians.
No, Jesus is saying in Ezekiel 39:28, having reflected over everything the house of Israel had gone through aforehand in the previous verses, that he is going to bring all the Jews back to the land of Israel, leaving none of them in the nations.

The Gog/Magog event is latter days, latter years. Not 400 years BC.

The Jews of Judaism believe that Gog/Magog is future, as well.
 
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From your earlier list of questions...

When did/does the old covenant end?
Answer: The Old Covenant ended when there was a "change in the law" with the change in the high priesthood (Hebrews 7:12). Also, Paul said the Old Covenant elements were "decaying" and ready to vanish away. (Hebrews 8:13). Anything that is decaying is ALREADY DEAD. From that point, it's just rotting, and in need of cremation.

When did/does the new covenant begin?
Answer: The "New Covenant in my blood" would be inaugurated when Christ first ascended to the Father the morning after His resurrection, was consecrated our high priest forevermore, and sprinkled His blood on heaven's mercy seat as our mediator. "For a testament is of force AFTER men are dead..." (Hebrews 9:17). "How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your consciences from dead work to serve the living God? And for this cause, He is the mediator of the new testament..." (Hebrews 9:14-15).

When did/does "the last days" begin?

Answer: The "last days" started with Christ's public earthly ministry in AD 30. "God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets," (With the law and the prophets being until John the Baptist) "Hath in THESE LAST DAYS spoken unto us by His Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also He made the world." Christ's public preaching ministry began from the time that Christ said "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of heaven is AT HAND; Repent ye and believe the gospel", (Mark 1:15) John had just been cast into prison, and Christ had just launched His public ministry of preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God and performing miracles.

When will "the last days" finish?

Answer: The "last days" had wound down to what John called "the LAST HOUR" in 1 John 2:18. Also, 1 Peter 4:7 said that "The END OF ALL THINGS IS AT HAND; be ye therefore sober and watch unto prayer." The "gathering" of the resurrected saints in AD 70 on Pentecost day was the culmination of those "last days" during Israel's "latter end" which Moses had spoken of long before in the "song of Moses" (Deut. 32:29).

Back tomorrow to get a few more of your questions...
 
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The Gog/Magog event is latter days, latter years. Not 400 years BC.

That's right, Gog's battle belongs to Israel's "latter end" (Deut 32:29), which is why God switches his point of focus between Ezekiel 39:24 and Ezekiel 39:25. There is a transition between those two verses.

A quick paraphrase of this section would be, "All this horrible Gog stuff will go down against Israel in the latter years when they will all perish by the sword, because they transgressed against me. But putting aside that latter years' judgment on Israel for the moment, I have other plans for Israel right NOW. NOW I am planning next to bring your Babylonian captivity to an end and exercise some mercy on you by gathering you out of the nations where you are currently bearing your shame for your sins against me. And when I gather you from all nations to return to your homeland, I will pour my spirit on the house of Israel."

That "pouring out my Spirit" was the revival that Ezra said had happened in the nation under the Persian kings decrees (Ezra 9:9-9). Haggai also spoke of the Lord "stirring up the spirit" of Zerubbabel, Joshua, and all the remnant of the people in those days. "...So my spirit remaineth among you", God told the post-exilic return people of Israel (Haggai 2:5).
 
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Douggg

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A quick paraphrase of this section would be, "All this horrible Gog stuff will go down against Israel in the latter years when they will all perish by the sword, because they transgressed against me.
Israel is not Gog. That LXX to English translation you are using made a mistake, or the original text made a mistake, or the transcribers of it made a mistake. .

because.....

of Noah's four sons of which the nations came....

Gog is not associated with the lands of Shem's descendants, but Japepth's descendants in Genesis 10:2

Gog is the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal. Magog, Meshech, Tubal, Gomer, Tubal are descendant of Japeth. Differently, the children of Israel are descendants of Shem.

Ezekiel 38:2 Son of man, set thy face against Gog, the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal, and prophesy against him,

3 And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:

6 Gomer, and all his bands; the house of Togarmah of the north quarters, and all his bands: and many people with thee.

_______________________________________________

Genesis 10:2 The sons of Japheth; Gomer, and Magog, and Madai, and Javan, and Tubal, and Meshech, and Tiras.
 
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because.....

of Noah's four sons of which the nations came....

Gog is not associated with the lands of Shem's descendants, but Japepth's descendants in Genesis 10:2

Gog is the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal. Magog, Meshech, Tubal, Gomer, Tubal are descendant of Japeth. Differently, the children of Israel are descendants of Shem.

Ezekiel 38:2 Son of man, set thy face against Gog, the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal, and prophesy against him,

3 And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:

6 Gomer, and all his bands; the house of Togarmah of the north quarters, and all his bands: and many people with thee.

YES!! Now you're getting it.

That's why this Gog battle was described as "every man's hand shall be against HIS BROTHER" in Ezekiel 38:21.

That was the descendants of Shem, Ham, and Japheth - all these 3 brothers who were sons of Noah - battling one another during the Gog conflict.

You remember, Ezekiel 38:17 said of Gog, "Art thou he of whom I have spoken in old time by my servants the prophets of Israel, which prophesied in those days many years that I would bring thee against them?" This was an ANCIENT PROPHECY given about Gog that had endured and been passed down for MANY YEARS.

Just where do you think the prophets got that information from God? I contend that it originated as far back as Noah, known as "a preacher of righteousness" that God called him in 2 Peter 2:5. After the disgraceful episode of Noah's drunkenness in his tent with Ham's resulting sin against his father, Noah passed down a judgment for his sons , the 3 brothers, which was recorded in Genesis 9:25. "And he said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren. And he said Blessed be the Lord God of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant. God shall enlarge Japheth, and he shall dwell in the tents of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant." This set up the ancient rivalry between Canaan, Ham's son, and Ham's brothers Shem and Japheth - who were the progenitors of that list of nations given in Genesis 10 who were doing battle against each other in Ezekiel 38-39 - brother against brother.

This ancient prophecy of rivalry between these brothers and their descendants was added to and confirmed by Balaam who "had his eyes opened" by God, and who was forced by God to prophesy a blessing on Israel before they entered the land of Canaan. Remember, he told Balak in Numbers 24:14, that "I will advertise thee what this people shall do to thy people in the LATTER DAYS." This is another indication of the descendants of Noah's three sons battling each other. Balaam went on to describe the annihilation of Moab, Amalek, Edom and Mount Seir, the Kenites, Asshur, and Eber, who would all finally perish. In expectation of all this complete destruction of these nations, Balaam uttered a woeful cry, "Alas, who shall live when God doeth this!"

The final results of this annihilation of these brother's nations took place when the Zealot factions in AD 66 began tearing each other up, as well as the innocent civilians caught between them, even before Rome entered the scene finally in the spring of AD 70. Zechariah also foretold of this internecine warfare, when he said that even the governors of Judah would be like a firebrand who would "devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left..." (Zech. 12:6). Zechariah also said that "In that day, that a great tumult from the Lord shall be among them; and they shall lay hold everyone on the hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbour." (Zech. 14:13). CIVIL WAR in Jerusalem during that AD 66-70 period. Prophesied "FROM OLD TIME" by Israel's prophets who over time had passed the ancient message on to their people.

John the Baptist's ministry was supposed to warn Israel of this coming brotherly conflict. Just before the "great and dreadful day of the Lord" came, John's mission was to "turn the heart of the father to the son, and the heart of a man to his neighbour, lest I come and smite the earth grievously." (Malachi 4:5-6 LXX). During the early first-century, the nation of Israel was in a probationary period with Christ's gospel teaching love for one's enemies, but ultimately, the Zealot conflict broke out in opposition to this teaching in AD 66 during the "latter years" of Israel's "latter end" in its "last state".
 
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Douggg

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YES!! Now you're getting it.

That's why this Gog battle was described as "every man's hand shall be against HIS BROTHER" in Ezekiel 38:21.

That was the descendants of Shem, Ham, and Japheth - all these 3 brothers who were sons of Noah - battling one another during the Gog conflict.

You remember, Ezekiel 38:17 said of Gog, "Art thou he of whom I have spoken in old time by my servants the prophets of Israel, which prophesied in those days many years that I would bring thee against them?" This was an ANCIENT PROPHECY given about Gog that had endured and been passed down for MANY YEARS.

Just where do you think the prophets got that information from God? I contend that it originated as far back as Noah, known as "a preacher of righteousness" that God called him in 2 Peter 2:5. After the disgraceful episode of Noah's drunkenness in his tent with Ham's resulting sin against his father, Noah passed down a judgment for his sons , the 3 brothers, which was recorded in Genesis 9:25. "And he said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren. And he said Blessed be the Lord God of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant. God shall enlarge Japheth, and he shall dwell in the tents of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant." This set up the ancient rivalry between Canaan, Ham's son, and Ham's brothers Shem and Japheth - who were the progenitors of that list of nations given in Genesis 10 who were doing battle against each other in Ezekiel 38-39 - brother against brother.

This ancient prophecy of rivalry between these brothers and their descendants was added to and confirmed by Balaam who "had his eyes opened" by God, and who was forced by God to prophesy a blessing on Israel before they entered the land of Canaan. Remember, he told Balak in Numbers 24:14, that "I will advertise thee what this people shall do to thy people in the LATTER DAYS." This is another indication of the descendants of Noah's three sons battling each other. Balaam went on to describe the annihilation of Moab, Amalek, Edom and Mount Seir, the Kenites, Asshur, and Eber, who would all finally perish. In expectation of all this complete destruction of these nations, Balaam uttered a woeful cry, "Alas, who shall live when God doeth this!"

The final results of this annihilation of these brother's nations took place when the Zealot factions in AD 66 began tearing each other up, as well as the innocent civilians caught between them, even before Rome entered the scene finally in the spring of AD 70. Zechariah also foretold of this internecine warfare, when he said that even the governors of Judah would be like a firebrand who would "devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left..." (Zech. 12:6). Zechariah also said that "In that day, that a great tumult from the Lord shall be among them; and they shall lay hold everyone on the hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbour." (Zech. 14:13). CIVIL WAR in Jerusalem during that AD 66-70 period. Prophesied "FROM OLD TIME" by Israel's prophets who over time had passed the ancient message on to their people.

John the Baptist's ministry was supposed to warn Israel of this coming brotherly conflict. Just before the "great and dreadful day of the Lord" came, John's mission was to "turn the heart of the father to the son, and the heart of a man to his neighbour, lest I come and smite the earth grievously." (Malachi 4:5-6 LXX). During the early first-century, the nation of Israel was in a probationary period with Christ's gospel teaching love for one's enemies, but ultimately, the Zealot conflict broke out in opposition to this teaching in AD 66 during the "latter years" of Israel's "latter end" in its "last state".
Sorry, no mass grave site of Gog's army in Israel. Gog/Magog prophecies still future, but close.

All of the trees in verse 29, are all those nations listed in Ezekiel 38.

Luke 21:29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;

30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.

31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.
 
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Timtofly

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That's not what Revelation 12:12 says. It gives us the information that the millennium was already ended at that point when John was writing, because Satan was already loosed for that "short time" on earth. Which "short time" or "little season" was going to happen once the millennium had expired.
Revelation 12 never claims Satan was loosed for a season. Now you are changing chapter 12 to reconcile your changing of chapter 20.

A resurrection did start the Millennium. They were dead. They lived and reigned with Christ 1000 years. They did not reign for 1000 years and then beheaded, and then lived again after the 1000 years.

"I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

Their beheading and given new life was prior to, not after they reigned 1000 years.

The only person who was beheaded in the first century prior to the Cross was John the Baptist. Are you claiming he lived 1000 years before the Cross up until he was beheaded? You are the one claiming the 1000 years happened before a resurrection.


For all normal life one is not beheaded prior to the time they lived. Normally they do not live 1000 years and then are beheaded, just to live again after the 1000 years.


Those resurrected lived normal lives during the time the mark of the beast was a thing. They were beheaded. Their souls stood before thrones, and they were judged. Then they lived and reigned 1000 years. This 1000 years is in addition to, and after they already lived and were beheaded.

Satan was loosed after this 1000 years. Satan was not even bound when they were beheaded. He was bound when they were resurrected. Then there is a 1000 years, before he is loosed.
 
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From your earlier list of questions...


Answer: The Old Covenant ended when there was a "change in the law" with the change in the high priesthood (Hebrews 7:12). Also, Paul said the Old Covenant elements were "decaying" and ready to vanish away. (Hebrews 8:13). Anything that is decaying is ALREADY DEAD. From that point, it's just rotting, and in need of cremation.


Answer: The "New Covenant in my blood" would be inaugurated when Christ first ascended to the Father the morning after His resurrection, was consecrated our high priest forevermore, and sprinkled His blood on heaven's mercy seat as our mediator. "For a testament is of force AFTER men are dead..." (Hebrews 9:17). "How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your consciences from dead work to serve the living God? And for this cause, He is the mediator of the new testament..." (Hebrews 9:14-15).



Answer: The "last days" started with Christ's public earthly ministry in AD 30. "God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets," (With the law and the prophets being until John the Baptist) "Hath in THESE LAST DAYS spoken unto us by His Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also He made the world." Christ's public preaching ministry began from the time that Christ said "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of heaven is AT HAND; Repent ye and believe the gospel", (Mark 1:15) John had just been cast into prison, and Christ had just launched His public ministry of preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God and performing miracles.



Answer: The "last days" had wound down to what John called "the LAST HOUR" in 1 John 2:18. Also, 1 Peter 4:7 said that "The END OF ALL THINGS IS AT HAND; be ye therefore sober and watch unto prayer." The "gathering" of the resurrected saints in AD 70 on Pentecost day was the culmination of those "last days" during Israel's "latter end" which Moses had spoken of long before in the "song of Moses" (Deut. 32:29).

Back tomorrow to get a few more of your questions...

Thank you for taking the time to respond. I truly appreciate it.
 
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parousia70

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The "New Covenant in my blood" would be inaugurated when Christ first ascended to the Father the morning after His resurrection, was consecrated our high priest forevermore, and sprinkled His blood on heaven's mercy seat as our mediator.

How do you reconcile that with Hebrews 9:24?

Hebrews 9:24
For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us;

How often does Jesus travel from earth into Heaven to present His perfect sacrifice for us?

Based on your statement and this passage from Hebrews, you must believe at least twice, right?

But scripture says only once:

25 not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood of another— 26 He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.

If I understand you correctly, you are asserting that, sometime after He came out of the tomb and appeared to Mary, but before he appeared to His apostles, that Christ ascended to heaven and presented Himself as the firstfruits offering, then returned to earth once that offering was accepted By God.

If this is your position, I still don't see How you can reconcile it with Hebrews 9:24?
"For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:"

The writer of Hebrews, writing in the 60's AD, some 30 years after your proposed "ascension & return" claimed that at the time he was writing, Christ was presently in heaven offering himself as the sacrifice for us.

Your view has Him offering Himself the 2nd day after Passover, Having that offer Accepted By God, returning to earth, then ascending again and offering himself AGAIN, which the writer of Hebrews explicitly says CAN NOT BE:

Hebrews 9:25-26
"25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; 26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.'

Im definitely curious to know what sort of "get around" to this you are applying to support your contention.
 
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Revelation 12 never claims Satan was loosed for a season.

John claims that Satan in great wrath had at that time come down to the earth and the sea (the land of Israel and the Gentile nations) for a "short time". What is a "short time" but a "little season"? The same "little season" of Satan's being loosed after the millennium?

Their beheading and given new life was prior to, not after they reigned 1000 years.

This is a common misperception. It's actually the other way around. Scripture never says that they were martyred and THEN AFTER THAT lived and reigned along with Christ. All that Revelation 20:4 means is that during their lifetime on earth as children of faith, that each of those mentioned had shared at some point of the 1,000-year phase in the increased benefits when Christ had Satan bound. Some of them "lived and reigned" (or "reigned in life by one Christ" - Rom. 5:17) without having to be martyred during their natural lifetime. Some were martyred, but not all. John saw both kinds of these souls.

I wouldn't get hung up on the whole "beheaded" word. There is another Greek word that specifically means "decapitation", but it isn't the word used here in Revelation 20:4.

Satan was not even bound when they were beheaded. He was bound when they were resurrected.

No, that's not the case. Satan was LOOSED on earth when the "First resurrection" of Christ and the 144,000 First-fruits Matt. 27 group was raised in AD 33. He and his angels were kicked out of heaven for all time, and cast down to the earth then, at the point when the newly-resurrected Christ had ascended and become the saints' high priest representative for all time. With Christ becoming our "advocate" on high, Satan had no judicial right to accuse the brethren anymore, and was thrown out of heaven's "court room".

It's very, very simple. The Rev. 20 millennium ended when Christ ascended and the Devil descended. Easy to remember.
 
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Im definitely curious to know what sort of "get around" to this you are applying to support your contention.

No "get around" about it at all. The presence of Christ's blood sprinkled on heaven's mercy seat is there for all time, a permanent replacement for the blood of those temporary animal sacrifices on earth which had only been a type of Christ's blood offered once for all. Christ's glorified resurrection body could go anywhere in heaven or on earth or in the universe, and His blood would still be there sprinkled on the mercy seat, a mute witness on our behalf, which God the Father had accepted back at the first ascension, the morning after His resurrection.

There is a favorite hymn from my childhood that I love. Part of it goes,

"Arise, my soul, arise
Shake off thy guilty fears!
The bleeding sacrifice
On my behalf appears....

His blood atoned for all our race
His blood atoned for all our race
And sprinkles now the throne of grace."

It's a beautiful hymn about Christ's blood sacrifice being offered and accepted on behalf of the children of faith.
 
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If I understand you correctly, you are asserting that, sometime after He came out of the tomb and appeared to Mary, but before he appeared to His apostles, that Christ ascended to heaven and presented Himself as the firstfruits offering, then returned to earth once that offering was accepted By God.

Exactly right. Christ told Mary He was going to ascend to the Father (right then before the morning had fully dawned). This is why God gave the prophecy of "I have begotten thee from the womb BEFORE THE MORNING". (Psalms 110:3 LXX). For God to "beget" Christ was to have Jesus stand before God in heaven that morning in a glorified, resurrected body - the very first one in a human body to ever do so in history. Something was "birthed" in heaven early that morning that had never existed before. The "Firstborn", "Firstbegotten" Christ arrived in heaven, and was "brought near before the Ancient of Days" and given a kingdom and dominion, and glory (Daniel 7:13-14).
 
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parousia70

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No "get around" about it at all. The presence of Christ's blood sprinkled on heaven's mercy seat is there for all time, a permanent replacement for the blood of those temporary animal sacrifices on earth which had only been a type of Christ's blood offered once for all.

Wait... How could he sprinlkle His Blood there when you contend He was Physicaly healed of His wounds BEFORE he appeared there, in order to fufill the requirement He be without spot or blemish?

Did He bring a goblet of the blood already spilled on the cross up there with Him or seomthing?
 
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Well, parousia70, we know that "the life of the flesh is IN THE BLOOD" (Leviticus 17:11). Christ's glorified resurrection body was a bloodless one. He told the disciples to handle Him and see that it was He Himself, because a Spirit did not have flesh and bones such as He was displaying for them to see and handle. Notice: He made no mention of having blood at that point, because He had just offered it in heaven earlier that day.

Preterists are correct that "flesh and BLOOD cannot inherit the kingdom of God". But "flesh and BONES" without blood CAN inherit it in the eternal state.

You remember, of course, that all the slain Old Covenant animal sacrifices would have the blood drained from them before they were offered for acceptance on the altar. Even birds had their blood wrung out at the base of the altar. The bowls before the altar were used to carry the blood to the mercy seat for sprinkling. This provided a picture of what Christ would do in the heavenly temple on His resurrection day ascension. Everything of the earthly tabernacle and Temple was based on a pattern of what Moses knew were the better, heavenly things. For Christ to offer His blood for acceptance in heaven that day He was resurrected was to literally offer the "life of His flesh" on our behalf. It remains there today, a "once for all" sacrifice, applied on behalf of all God's children.
 
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The Mt. of Olives has not been split in half. Still future.
So, you think it will literally be split in half, eh? Can't possibly be any symbolism there? Do you think we should take the following passage all literally as well?

Luke 3:4 As it is written in the book of the words of Isaiah the prophet:“A voice of one calling in the wilderness, ‘Prepare the way for the Lord, make straight paths for him. 5 Every valley shall be filled in,
every mountain and hill made low.The crooked roads shall become straight, the rough ways smooth
.6 And all people will see God’s salvation.’”
 
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That's not what Revelation 12:12 says. It gives us the information that the millennium was already ended at that point when John was writing, because Satan was already loosed for that "short time" on earth. Which "short time" or "little season" was going to happen once the millennium had expired.
The "short time" and the "little season" are not referring to the same periods of time. Look up the Greek words translated as "short time" in Revelation 12:12 and compare them to the Greek words translated as "little season" in Revelation 20:3 and you will see they are not the same.

The Greek word translated as "short" in Revelation 12:12 does not mean a literal small amount but rather means a limited or relatively small amount. The same word was used when Jesus said "Many are called, but few are chosen". Obviously, the word "few" there is used in a relative sense and is not referring to a literally small number.
 
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Well, we can compare this "LITTLE season" with the "LONG season" in Joshua 24:7 of 40 years of wilderness wanderings for the Israelites. Joshua and God considered 40 years a LONG set period of time to fulfill God's particular purpose for them.

So, a "LITTLE season" would necessarily have to be a set time period of shorter duration than a long season. In other words, a "SHORT time" for Satan to be loosed would last less than 40 years. The only distinction between "kairos" and "chronon" is that "kairos" carries the added implication that God has designed a special purpose for that set-apart period of appointed time. Both of these terms apply to the appointed short amount of time that Satan was being allowed to wage war against the saints as John was writing Revelation.
 
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