Hmmm...Love and gratitude may be related, or overlap each other somewhat, but they are not the same thing.
Luk 7:40 And Jesus answered him, "Simon, I have something to say to you." And he replied, "Say it, Teacher." 41 "A moneylender had two debtors: one owed five hundred denarii, and the other fifty. 42 "When they were unable to repay, he graciously forgave them both. So which of them will love him more?" 43 Simon answered and said, "I suppose the one whom he forgave more." And He said to him, "You have judged correctly." 44 Turning toward the woman, He said to Simon, "Do you see this woman? I entered your house; you gave Me no water for My feet, but she has wet My feet with her tears and wiped them with her hair. 45 "You gave Me no kiss; but she, since the time I came in, has not ceased to kiss My feet. 46 "You did not anoint My head with oil, but she anointed My feet with perfume. 47 "For this reason I say to you, her sins, which are many, have been forgiven, for she loved much; but he who is forgiven little, loves little."
If you do not understand and believe what God has forgiven you for, you cannot have the love He describes for God. Nor will you grasp what God’s forgiveness means as it pertains to others. Understanding the debt we owed God and what He has forgiven us for is a foundational belief that, without it does not result in salvation.
Mat 18:24 "When he had begun to settle them, one who owed him ten thousand talents was brought to him. 25 "But since he did not have the means to repay, his lord commanded him to be sold, along with his wife and children and all that he had, and repayment to be made. 26 "So the slave fell to the ground and prostrated himself before him, saying, 'Have patience with me and I will repay you everything.' 27 "And the lord of that slave felt compassion and released him and forgave him the debt. 28 "But that slave went out and found one of his fellow slaves who owed him a hundred denarii; and he seized him and began to choke him, saying, 'Pay back what you owe.' 29 "So his fellow slave fell to the ground and began to plead with him, saying, 'Have patience with me and I will repay you.' 30 "But he was unwilling and went and threw him in prison until he should pay back what was owed. 31 "So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were deeply grieved and came and reported to their lord all that had happened. 32 "Then summoning him, his lord *said to him, 'You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 'Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?' 34 "And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him. 35 "My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart."
Missing this key part also means that you are not a Christian yet. Your debt is still in place.
Mat 6:12 'And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. 13 'And do not lead us into temptation, but deliver us from evil. [For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.]' 14 "For if you forgive others for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 "But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.
I can't say I love God just because I feel grateful toward Him. Imagine, asking a woman to marry you on such basis: "I find myself feeling powerfully grateful toward you, Beth! Marry me, please!" Beth would likely respond, "You want to marry me because you are grateful toward me? Do you love me?" And she would ask this question because she knows what we
all know to be true: gratitude and love are not the same thing.
47 "For this reason I say to you, her sins, which are many, have been forgiven, for she loved much; but he who is forgiven little, loves little." I get it, to you they are not the same thing. Jesus says that if you miss it though, no matter what you “believe” you love, you will not have the love of God that results in salvation. This is a foundational salvation fact. And if you do not have it, loving God, as He desires us to love Him, cannot be done …
Love, at its core, is
desire. I can examine everything in my life that I love and discover desire at its heart. And the greater the desire, the greater the love.
Zeal for God in accordance with your beliefs doesn’t even save us. Moslems fly planes into towers, people flagellate themselves, people go on crusades for God … but zeal, being on fire, spending 20 hours a day in prayer, fasting for weeks out of a desire love, zeal for God in accordance with your beliefs has nothing at all to do with salvation. Everyone who believes there is God believes they love the truth and have the truth, many would rather die than give up their beliefs and dedicate their lives to living in accordance with those beliefs.
Rom 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation.2 For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge. 3 For not knowing about God's righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God.
But having the “spirit” right, getting a zeal for God, doesn’t result in salvation either or all the Jews, Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses … would all have the correct gospel and all would be in heaven. Believing you are right with God and believing you are doing His will doesn’t even save you if you believe Jesus is your Lord God and Savior. The target is doing what it takes to get to truth, the things God commands us to keep on doing with His word over and over again, like
“Prove all things, hold fast to what is good.” Which is in the present tense. “Keep in proving all things over and over again as a habit and way of life, and never stop, and when you do, hold fast to what is good/true and not to your beliefs.”
There are plenty of folks who obey God.
Everyone who believes there is a God pretty much believes that they, and those that follow their belief group, have the truth, believe the truth and live the truth. Believing you do, even with all your heart, mind, soul and strength, does not save.
Mat 7:21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven,
but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22 "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' 23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.' 24 "Therefore
everyone who hears these words of Mine and does them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 "And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock. 26 "
Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. 27 "The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell--and great was its fall."
Jesus says that the vast majority, the Many, on the broad path that leads to destruction are the many who believe He is their Lord, God, Savior, and that everything in their lives points to them being right with God. I don’t question their zeal for God, their hearts desire for Him, their hours of prayer and reading the bible … but they miss the truth, while believing they are right with Him. The key in this passage is not believing you are doing His will, but getting to the truth of what His word really says and means and living in accordance with that.
Heb 5:12 For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you have need again for someone to teach you the elementary principles of the oracles of God, and you have come to need milk and not solid food. 13 For everyone who partakes only of milk is not accustomed to the word of righteousness, for he is an infant. 14 But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil.
This is only one feature of spiritual maturity - and not the most important one, I think. Discerning right from wrong well is merely a means to a greater end: deep, rich, joyful fellowship with God.
Yet God says He still considers you a nursing babe if you are not yet to this point, no matter what else you may have. God says you are still a nursing babe if you aren’t to this point no matter what other standard we may set. God says you are still a baby.
EmethAlethia said:
↑
I stated that it was us who needed to put in the efforts and the striving to figure out and do His will, a choice, a decision ... again, out of love because He first loved us and died for us... and that the consequences for choosing not to do so, for real Christians should be a motivation to pick ourselves up and try again ...
Heb 12:4 You have not yet resisted to the point of shedding blood in your striving against sin; 5 and you have forgotten the exhortation which is addressed to you as sons, "MY SON, DO NOT REGARD LIGHTLY THE DISCIPLINE OF THE LORD, NOR FAINT WHEN YOU ARE REPROVED BY HIM; 6 FOR THOSE WHOM THE LORD LOVES HE DISCIPLINES, AND HE SCOURGES EVERY SON WHOM HE RECEIVES." 7 It is for discipline that you endure; God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline? 8 But if you are without discipline, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate children and not sons.
"Put in the effort" is a dangerous way of thinking spiritually, in my experience.
Yet God commands us to “STRIVE”, and keep on “Striving”, even to the point of shedding your own blood … in other words, every possible effort. Spare nothing.
“We don't need to do so when we are fueled by
the power of the Spirit; our effort isn't necessary when
God is giving us both the desire and ability to do His will,”
Ok, so Paul lied, do not keep on habitually striving putting in every effort possible. Let’s correct the word of God.
Heb 12:4 You have not yet resisted to the point of shedding blood in your striving against sin; Relax and let God fix all your sins. He will give you the desire when He wants to do so. 5 and you have forgotten the exhortation which is addressed to you as sons, "MY SON, DO NOT REGARD LIGHTLY THE DISCIPLINE OF THE LORD, NOR FAINT WHEN YOU ARE REPROVED BY HIM; If God seems to be correcting you because you aren’t choosing to put in your own efforts, ignore it and relax. The Holy Spirit will jump in and fix it all for you without any effort. Trust God to fix you and go on with life.6 FOR THOSE WHOM THE LORD LOVES HE DISCIPLINES, AND HE SCOURGES EVERY SON WHOM HE RECEIVES." God is going to do all the fixing, don’t worry about Him reproving you for waiting on Him to fix you. Relax. The Holy Spirit has this. 7 It is for discipline that you endure; God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline? 8 But if you are without discipline, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. God won’t discipline you for those things that are to be done by Him. That would be unjust. If you seem to be being corrected by God, relax, He doesn’t do that. Wait for the Holy Spirit to take over and do it all for you.
as Paul wrote to the Philippian Christians. (
Philippians 2:13) "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me," Paul wrote (
Philippians 4:13), not "I can do all things through Christ
and through me putting in my own effort."
Php 2:12 So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.
The efforts are ours to put in, not God’s. Yes, if we are Christians, the desire to be pleasing to Him, “He who is forgiven much loves much.”, comes from Him. That love results in our desire to figure out and keep His commandments. “If you love Me you will keep My commandments.” It is our job to obey and work out our salvation, for ourselves… out of love.
As I already pointed out from Scripture, we only work out what God has first worked into us; we simply manifest His work in us. This is very different than me "putting in the effort" and expecting a supernatural result. I can only produce more of me.
Unfortunately God commands that we DO put in the efforts. And if we are His we will DO, we will strive, we will be what He desires … He does command it. “Work out your salvation with fear and trembling.”
God disciplines His children primarily by letting them have their own way, which He knows always leads to greater and greater frustration, failure and pain.
That’s not what He says… those in the world do get natural consequences for their actions, but they are not His kids, so God does not focus on reproof of the lost now. They will have their time of judgment.
1Co 11:28 But a man must examine himself, and in so doing he is to eat of the bread and drink of the cup. 29 For he who eats and drinks, eats and drinks judgment to himself if he does not judge the body rightly. 30 For this reason many among you are weak and sick, and a number sleep. 31 But if we judged ourselves rightly, we would not be judged. 32 But when we are judged, we are disciplined by the Lord so that we will not be condemned along with the world.
That’s how God says He reproves His kids NOW, while they are still on the earth. We can make up anything else we want, but that’s what He says. That’s “HIS” reproof of His kids. Otherwise we would be lost and judged with the world. If you refuse to “DO” this, for yourself and by yourself, God, if He is your Father, WILL do the above work of reproof in you because you refuse to put in the efforts yourself.
Heb. 12: 7 It is for discipline that you endure; God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline? 8 But if you are without discipline, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate children and not sons.
His discipline lets us "spin our wheels" in the muddy track of sin, miring ourselves more and more in it, until in desperation and humility we cry out to Him for help. And then, He responds to our pleas by saying to us, "I'm the Boss. Will you let me be the Boss of you all the time? It's the only circumstance under which I will change you."
Again, that’s not what God says. He says that if we refuse to listen and put in the efforts ourselves, that He will step in and do so.
Heb 12:9 Furthermore, we had earthly fathers to discipline us, and we respected them; shall we not much rather be subject to the Father of spirits,
and live? (and a number sleep. (1Co. 11:29) 10 For they disciplined us for a short time as seemed best to them, but He disciplines us for our good, so that we may share His holiness. 11 All discipline for the moment seems not to be joyful, but sorrowful; yet to those who have been trained by it, afterwards it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness. 12 Therefore, strengthen the hands that are weak
(1Co. 11:30 For this reason many among you are weak) and the knees that are feeble, 13 and make straight paths for your feet, so that the limb which is lame may not be put out of joint, but rather be healed.
