Preterism-phony as a Ford Corvette

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Douggg

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Agag was the generic name for any king or ruler of the Amalekites
Are you saying like "pharaoh" was a generic name for any ruler of Egypt back in those days?
 
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parousia70

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I do not buy into that.

So you can"t say? Youy Don't Know?
c'mon, take a stab.

How do you think God would communicate nearness in Human terms to Humans?
What words besides "it is near, comign soon, must shortly take place for the time is at hand" could God Possibly Use to correctly and unambiguously communicate actual human nearness of events to Humans?

Jesus seems to be able to do so:

Matthew 24:33
33 Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door.

All agree Jesus is communicating to Humans actual Human Nearness in this passage.

Jesus is NOT saying "when you see all these things, know that it is near to God but still thousands of years away to Humans".

Is he?
 
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sovereigngrace

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So you can"t say? Youy Don't Know?
c'mon, take a stab.

How do you think God would communicate nearness in Human terms to Humans?
What words besides "it is near, comign soon, must shortly take place for the time is at hand" could God Possibly Use to correctly and unambiguously communicate actual human nearness of events to Humans?

Jesus seems to be able to do so:

Matthew 24:33
33 Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door.

All agree Jesus is communicating to Humans actual Human Nearness in this passage.

Jesus is NOT saying "when you see all these things, know that it is near to God but still thousands of years away to Humans".

Is he?

That too is talking about the future coming of Christ. It is telling us that the signs of the times will tell us when He is near in human terms.
 
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parousia70

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That too is talking about the future coming of Christ. It is showing us the signs of the times will tell us He is coming imminently.

So it appears you agree.
When God wants to Communicate something is near to Humans, or even as you say imminent, Jesus Says What?
He Says:
Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door.

Do you Suppose James was Aware of Jesus' admonition in Matthew 24:33 when he wrote:

James 5:8-9
8 You too, be patient and stand firm, because the Lord’s coming is near. 9 Don’t grumble against one another, brothers and sisters, or you will be judged. The Judge is standing at the door!


How would James' audience understand James did NOT mean the same thing Jesus meant in Matt 24:33, when James uses the same language?

It appears your contention is, when Jesus, who is God, says: Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door, He means Near and at the Door as it relates to Men, yet when James, who is a man says: "the Lord’s coming is near.... The Judge is standing at the door!" he means Near and at the Door as it relates to God.

And James' audience would know this difference...how?
 
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sovereigngrace

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So it appears you agree.
When God wants to Communicate something is near to Humans, or even as you say imminent, Jesus Says What?
He Says:
Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door.

Do you Suppose James was Aware of Jesus' admonition in Matthew 24:33 when he wrote:

James 5:8-9
8 You too, be patient and stand firm, because the Lord’s coming is near. 9 Don’t grumble against one another, brothers and sisters, or you will be judged. The Judge is standing at the door!


How would James' audience understand James did NOT mean the same thing Jesus meant in Matt 24:33, when James uses the same language?

It appears your contention is, when Jesus, who is God, says: Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door, He means Near and at the Door as it relates to Men, yet when James, who is a man says: "the Lord’s coming is near.... The Judge is standing at the door!" he means Near and at the Door as it relates to God.

And James' audience would know this difference...how?

How "quickly" is "quickly" in human earthly terms?
How "soon" is "soon" in human earthly terms?
How "near" is "near" in human earthly terms?
How "shortly" is "shortly" in human earthly terms?

I know what my answers would be if i was busting to go to the restroom!
 
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Ed Parenteau

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When jesus returns, it WILL be a physical kingdom, as Scripture says. He will reign with His saints from Jerusalem during the millenium.

That completely contradicts the verses I gave you.

And no, it doesn't say He will reign with His saints. It says they will reign with Him.
Ephesians 2: 6and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
The church started at Pentecost, so from the following, show me where it ends.
Ephesians 3:
21to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, forever and ever. Amen.
 
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Lost4words

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Revelation 1

1 The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants what must soon take place; and he made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, 2 who bore witness to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw. 3 Blessed is he who reads aloud the words of the prophecy, and blessed are those who hear, and who keep what is written therein; for the time is near.

Not thousands of years in the future!

Many 'experts' misunderstand and misinterpret Revelation. They say they read it 'plainly' but, greatly twist the plainest words that are written just to make them fit their own unique beliefs.
 
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parousia70

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My last post addresses all this. You simply didn't address it.
Well, You "addressed it" by saying:
The letting out God’s vineyard to “other husbandmen” relates to the Gospel reaching out to the Gentiles. It is talking about the period following Christ's defeat of sin, death and Satan, which included when He appeared unto the disciples for 40 days and prepared then for their empowerment at Pentecost to fulfill the great commission. It was definitely before AD70
Again, the Text testifies the exact opposite of your view, as I pointed out, and you didn't address.

Jesus says (which should settle it) the vineyard gets Let to others "When the lord of the Vineyard comes to destroy them"

You say, NO, It happens BEFORE that time.

Again, when faced with choosing which of these two polar opposite views to accept as true and correct, Yours or Jesus', My money is on Jesus.
 
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parousia70

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How "quickly" is "quickly" in human earthly terms?
How "soon" is "soon" in human earthly terms?
How "near" is "near" in human earthly terms?
How "shortly" is "shortly" in human earthly terms?

I know what my answers would be if i was busting to go to the restroom!

Context determines it.

For a bathroom trip whe your back teeth are floating, near better be around the corner or in the next room.

Boise is Nearer to Seattle than it is to New York.

The Moon is Nearer to the Earth than is Jupiter.

2021 is Nearer to Y2K than it is to 1776

These are ALL Human earthly terms.

It is important to note that when it comes to human time statements, Soon, Quickly, At hand, about to take place, near, a little while, never go beyond the typical lifespan of a human being.

Near, soon, at hand, aboot to take place is not 150 years.

In the Context of the Impending Firey and Final end of the 1500 year long Mosaic Temple, Old Covenant Enconomy, anytime in the final 40 years could that end be resonably considered to be Near, soon and about to take place.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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If that is true, then John was lying when he wrote that the Scarlet Beast was "ABOUT TO ASCEND out of the abyss" (Revelation 17:8). The Scarlet Beast was ALSO "ABOUT TO...GO INTO DESTRUCTION" soon after John was writing. This Scarlet Beast's lifespan was going to be exceedingly short, once it had briefly revived for a time.

This meant a SOON arrival on the scene in John's days, and also a SOON COMING DESTRUCTION of that same Scarlet Beast.

And since the Scarlet Beast and the False Prophet / Land Beast were to be thrown in TOGETHER to the Lake of Fire, then their SOON destruction happened simultaneously as well

All this takes is some basic reading comprehension. You are mistaken in the timing of the fulfillment of this.
Revelation 17:8 does not say that the beast was ABOUT TO ascend out of the abyss. I assume you are coming to this conclusion because of your understanding of the Greek word "mello", which is translated as "shall" in the KJV version of Rev 17:8. That word does not necessarily refer to something that is soon to happen. It can be used to refer to something that is soon to happen, but it doesn't have to refer to something that will soon happen. It can be used to refer to something that is certain to happen at some point without giving any specific indication of the timing.

The word is used in this passage:

Matthew 11:13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John. 14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for (Greek: mellō - Strong's G3195) to come.

In that passage, Jesus was saying that John the Baptist was the Elijah to come. He was referencing this prophecy:

Malachi 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord: 6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

So, Elijah was to come at some point after this prophecy was given. As it turned out he didn't actually come until about 400 years after the prophecy was written. So, this show that what is ABOUT TO happen can take at least 400 years to actually happen. But, you are trying to say it has to refer to something that would happen literally very soon. That is not the case.

So, Revelation 17:8 is not talking about something that had to happen soon. It's talking about something that was certain to happen at some point just as the Elijah prophesied about in Malachi 4 was certain to come at some point, but how long it would be was not indicated. The same is true regarding how long it would be until the beast ascended from the abyss. The timing is not specifically indicated. It only indicates that it was certain to happen.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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Revelation 1

1 The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants what must soon take place; and he made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, 2 who bore witness to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw. 3 Blessed is he who reads aloud the words of the prophecy, and blessed are those who hear, and who keep what is written therein; for the time is near.

Not thousands of years in the future!
Oh, really? Then what about Revelation 20-22? You think that is already fulfilled?

Many 'experts' misunderstand and misinterpret Revelation. They say they read it 'plainly' but, greatly twist the plainest words that are written just to make them fit their own unique beliefs.
So, do you believe the entire book soon took place then? If not, then how do you go about determining what literally soon took place and what didn't? It seems like you should think that all of it soon took place based on how you interpret Revelation 1:1-3. But, then that would likely make you a full preterist. Don't want that. You've just created a bit of a dilemma for yourself here.
 
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Lost4words

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Oh, really? Then what about Revelation 20-22? You think that is already fulfilled?

So, do you believe the entire book soon took place then? If not, then how do you go about determining what literally soon took place and what didn't? It seems like you should think that all of it soon took place based on how you interpret Revelation 1:1-3. But, then that would likely make you a full preterist. Don't want that. You've just created a bit of a dilemma for yourself here.

No dilemma for me my friend. None at all! ;)
 
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sovereigngrace

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Context determines it.

For a bathroom trip whe your back teeth are floating, near better be around the corner or in the next room.

Boise is Nearer to Seattle than it is to New York.

The Moon is Nearer to the Earth than is Jupiter.

2021 is Nearer to Y2K than it is to 1776

These are ALL Human earthly terms.

It is important to note that when it comes to human time statements, Soon, Quickly, At hand, about to take place, near, a little while, never go beyond the typical lifespan of a human being.

Near, soon, at hand, aboot to take place is not 150 years.

In the Context of the Impending Firey and Final end of the 1500 year long Mosaic Temple, Old Covenant Enconomy, anytime in the final 40 years could that end be resonably considered to be Near, soon and about to take place.

Whatever way you look at Preterism it is selective in its analysis. There is a sever lack of objectivity. Preterists narrowly define "quickly," "soon," "near" and "shortly" as 40 years in order to fit their mistaken paradigm and in order to deny a future coming of Christ. This is manipulating the text to prove a belief that doesn't add up and is antibiblical.

There is no way that we would typically and normally consider "quickly," "soon," "near" and "shortly" in a human earthly sense as 40 years. Quite the opposite. It is a generation - a long time.
 
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Lost4words

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Yes it is a dilemma. When was the thousand years then?

There you go again....

Misunderstanding Revelation! Interpreting it with 'modern glasses on' believing its all futuristic.

Revelation was written for the Apostles generation.

Revelation 1

1 The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants what must soon take place; and he made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, 2 who bore witness to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw. 3 Blessed is he who reads aloud the words of the prophecy, and blessed are those who hear, and who keep what is written therein; for the time is near.
 
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jgr

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it's separate from a physical temple structure.

The following understood whereof Paul was speaking:

Martin Luther:

First Principles, pp. 196-197

For who is the man of sin and the son of perdition, but he who by his teaching and his ordinances increases the sin and perdition of souls in the church; while he yet sits in the church as if he were God? All these conditions have now for many ages been fulfilled by the papal tyranny.

John Knox:

The History of the Reformation of Religion in Scotland, p.65

Yea, to speak it in plain words; lest that we submit ourselves to Satan, thinking that we submit ourselves to Jesus Christ, for, as for your Roman kirk, as it is now corrupted, and the authority thereof, whereon stands the hope of your victory, I no more doubt but that it is the synagogue of Satan, and the head thereof, called the pope, to be that man of sin, of whom the apostle speaks.

John Calvin:

Commentary on 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4:

Paul, however, does not speak of one individual, but of a kingdom, that was to be taken possession of by Satan, that he might set up a seat of abomination in the midst of God’s temple — which we see accomplished in Popery.

Scripture declares that God is the alone Lawgiver (James 4:12) who is able to save and to destroy; the alone King, whose office it is to govern souls by his word. It represents him as the author of all sacred rites; (644) it teaches that righteousness and salvation are to be sought from Christ alone; and it assigns, at the same time, the manner and means. There is not one of these things that the Pope does not affirm to be under his authority. He boasts that it is his to bind consciences with such laws as seem good to him, and subject them to everlasting punishment. As to sacraments, he either institutes new ones, according to his own inclination, (645) or he corrupts and deforms those which had been instituted by Christ — nay, sets them aside altogether, that he may substitute in their place the sacrileges (646) which he has invented. He contrives means of attaining salvation that are altogether at variance with the doctrine of the Gospel; and, in fine, he does not hesitate to change the whole of religion at his own pleasure. What is it, I pray you, for one to lift up himself above everything that is reckoned God, if the Pope does not do so? When he thus robs God of his honor, he leaves him nothing remaining but an empty title of Deity, (647) while he transfers to himself the whole of his power. And this is what Paul adds shortly afterwards, that the son of perdition would shew himself as God.

The Westminster Confession of Faith (1647):

There is no other head of the church but the Lord Jesus Christ. Nor can the pope of Rome in any sense be head thereof; but is that Antichrist, that man of sin and son of perdition that exalteth himself in the church against Christ and all that is called God.

The Baptist Confession of Faith (1689):

"The Lord Jesus Christ is the Head of the church, in whom, by the appointment of the Father, all power for the calling, institution, order or government of the church, is invested in a supreme and sovereign manner; neither can the Pope of Rome in any sense be head thereof, but is that antichrist, that man of sin, and son of perdition, that exalteth himself in the church against Christ."

King James:

From the dedication letter for the 1611 King James Bible:

(3) Then not to suffer this to fall to the ground, but rather to take it up, and to continue it in that state, wherein the famous Predecessor of Your Highness did leave it: nay, to go forward with the confidence and resolution of a Man in maintaining the truth of Christ, and propagating it far and near, is that which hath so bound and firmly knit the hearts of all Your Majesty’s loyal and religious people unto You, that Your very name is precious among them: their eye doth behold You with comfort, and they bless You in their hearts, as that sanctified Person who, under God, is the immediate Author of their true happiness. And this their contentment doth not diminish or decay, but every day increaseth and taketh strength, when they observe, that the zeal of Your Majesty toward the house of God doth not slack or go backward, but is more and more kindled, manifesting itself abroad in the farthest parts of Christendom, by writing in defence of the Truth, (which hath given such a blow unto that man of sin, as will not be healed,) and every day at home, by religious and learned discourse, by frequenting the house of God, by hearing the Word preached, by cherishing the Teachers thereof, by caring for the Church, as a most tender and loving nursing Father.

Matthew Henry:

Commentary on 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4:

He is called the man of sin, to denote his egregious wickedness; not only is he addicted to, and practises, wickedness himself, but he also promotes, countenances, and commands sin and wickedness in others; and he is the son of perdition, because he himself is devoted to certain destruction, and is the instrument of destroying many others both in soul and body. These names may properly be applied, for these reasons, to the papal state; and thereto agree also,2. The characters here given, v. 4. (1.) That he opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God, or is worshipped; and thus have the bishops of Rome not only opposed God’s authority, and that of the civil magistrates, who are called gods, but have exalted themselves above God and earthly governors, in demanding greater regard to their commands than to the commands of God or the magistrate. (2.) As God, he sits in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
 
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3 Resurrections

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Then what about Revelation 20-22? You think that is already fulfilled?

It falls within the "AT HAND" time brackets for Revelation's unsealed, written prophecies in Revelation 1:3 and Revelation 22:10, so yes, it was fulfilled, according to GOD'S definition in Ezekiel 12:21-28 of when "AT HAND" prophecies are fulfilled.

Revelation 10:4 is the lone exception that includes prophecies NOT fulfilled in those first-century days, since these were UNWRITTEN and SEALED UP for later generations.

When was the thousand years then?

Already over and done just before John was writing Revelation, as John said in Revelation 12:12 compared to Revelation 20:3 and 7.
 
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Douggg

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You can't get anything right in your eschatology. The AOD will be when the antichrist enters the coming temple in Jerusalem, sets up his statue in it, which the false prophet will supernaturally (by Satan's power) make speak, & the AC declares himself to be God.
ToD when the Antichrist enters the coming temple, sits, claims to have achieved God-hood.

AoD when the statue image is made of him and placed in the temple courtyard where everyone can see it. The temple courtyard is basically the temple mount platform as it is today.
 
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sovereigngrace

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There you go again....

Misunderstanding Revelation! Interpreting it with 'modern glasses on' believing its all futuristic.

Revelation was written for the Apostles generation.

Revelation 1

1 The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants what must soon take place; and he made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, 2 who bore witness to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw. 3 Blessed is he who reads aloud the words of the prophecy, and blessed are those who hear, and who keep what is written therein; for the time is near.

You are not answering my question. When did the thousand years begin? How does it begin? When does it end? How does it end?

BTW, I believe we are in Revelation 20 now.
 
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