the standard of righteousness

[Doug Brents]

Lol, the road was paved ? Thats not truth friend !

The Straight and Narrow Way was paved by Christ. He is the Way! Without Him there is no way to Heaven. If you believe that’s not truth, then we have nothing more to talk about.

 

[Doug Brents]

Faith has nothing to do with Rom 5:18-19 or Rom 5:9. Im afraid you taking credit away from the blood of Christ, the obedience of Christ. Faith is a Gift of God to know about Justification spiritually in the mind and heart of the regenerate, but Christs death is the meritorious cause of the Justification of Gods elect.

Indeed, if Rom 5:18-19 were the only Scripture on the subject, then faith would have nothing to do with it. But since there are many other passages that tell us that we receive the benefit of the gift Jesus gave on the cross through our faith, faith has EVERYTHING to do with it.

 

[Clare73]

Faith has nothing to do with Rom 5:18-19 or Rom 5:9. Im afraid you taking credit away from the blood of Christ, the obedience of Christ. Faith is a Gift of God to know about Justification spiritually in the mind and heart of the regenerate, but
Christs death is the meritorious cause of the Justification of Gods elect.

Christ's death paid the penalty for man's sin and bought the benefits of salvation for them.

Let's start with justification, which is simply a declaration of "not guilty," of being in right standing with God's justice,
declared by God because of our faith, but always because of the work of Jesus on the cross which remitted our sin and made us "right" with God.

Romans 4:3, Romans 4:5 are about justification by faith apart from works.

Romans 5:19 is about the righteousness of Christ accounted/imputed to us, as it was credited/imputed to Abraham (Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:3) because of faith apart from works.

Both the justification (declaration of "not guilty") and the imputing of Christ's righteousness are because of the same faith, and occur at the same time, being the result of salvation (debt paid, sin removed) because of that same faith.

But all that comes to us through this faith (salvation, justification, righteousness) was "bought and paid for" by Jesus' atoning work on the cross.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

If the fruit saves AFTER, you weren't saved to begin with, you can only be saved if you weren't. No such thing as saving a saved person. No one is saved two times.

Actually, there are four different aspects of salvation that the Bible talks about. One could falsely conclude that Jesus saved all of mankind because He is the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world (like Universalists do), but that would be misunderstanding one aspect of salvation and its place in man's redemption.

I will give you a real life illustration to help you relate because that is what Jesus did when He wanted to illustrate spiritual truth. If a husband cheats on his wife, can he just change his behavior and never say he is sorry to her and expect the relationship to be okay? In other words, if we stop the bad behavior, but we truly do not have any remorse over what we did, and we don’t show that with the one we offended, then there is no real purpose of forgiveness. We are saved by God's grace in the fact that the Lord cleanses you of all past sin when you first came to Him seeking His forgiveness (i.e. Asking Jesus to forgive you of your sins). We are saved by trusting that Jesus died for our sins, He was buried, and He was risen three days later (1 Corinthians 15:1-4). This is wiping the slate clean so you can begin a new. You are saved in the fact that you have been forgiven of sin just as Jesus forgave others their sins. Are you honestly trying to tell me that the woman who was crying in thankfulness that her sins were forgiven was not saved? That would be pretty silly to even suggest such a thing because why would she be crying if she was lost and yet forgiven? That makes no sense whatsoever.

Make up your mind first you "believe" the fruit saves, now it doesn't? If the fruit doesn't save, we are not talking about the same parable. On my bible only the good ground was saved, because they bare fruit "some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold." The others were never saved because they bare no fruit.

So Rick is driving down the road and he swerves to miss a truck that is about to hit him head on. He saved himself and his family in the car. Then later that day, he says something to a guy in traffic who is driving badly, and the guy says something about wanting to kill him. Rick decides to back off and apologizes for his heated words to the man. Little did Rick know that if he did not apologize to this man he would have been shot dead by this other guy who was looking for a reason to hurt someone badly. So again, Rick showing mercy and the other guy forgiving Rick's heated words led again to Rick and his family's salvation. They were saved two times in one day.

But again, I already provided verses that show clearly that we are saved by God's grace and not works in numerous places (Ephesians 2:8-9) (Titus 3:5) (Romans 4:3-5). Your not having to deal with these verses does not make them go away.

Im not gonna tell you when you are saved, or at which work you were saved.
Im telling you it does have to do with the works, you must bare as much fruit as you can for God, at least thirtyfold, and on the last day, He will decide, based on your works.
Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Right, and the first work of God is to believe in Jesus.

“Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.” (John 6:29).

This is being saved by God's grace and mercy.

Granted, the Bible at times also speaks in a way that Grace is not a work like when the apostle Paul speaks of grace.

“And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.” (Romans 11:6).

Luke 23:40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?
41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.
42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

Both thieves "believe" Jesus the difference is one of them mocked Him, and the other defended Him. So the true faith was granted to the benevolent thief, and he rebuked the other thief, he spoke, this is a fruit from his true faith, he is witnessing, and he ministered to the other thief.
Next he recognized he was justly receiving the reward for his sins, death. He confessed. But Jesus had done nothing wrong, Jesus was blameless. And finally he plead for mercy, to be remembered.
All of this works are evident of true living faith. And is only after this that Jesus tells him he will be saved.

Yes, I have used this case against Belief Alone Proponents and their error in thinking they can sin and still be saved by having a belief alone in Jesus. Well, said, but... do you honestly think at the heart it was the thiefs actions alone that truly saved him or was it God's grace? The thief did give to the poor and yet if one does not do so according to the Bible in this life, they are not going to make into the Kingdom (Matthew 25:31-46). But bottom line, what saved him ultimately? It must have been God's grace and mercy via by Jesus Christ. For according to the Law, the woman caught in the act of adultery should have been stoned, but Jesus said he that is without sin let him cast the first stone. Again, do you fail to understand that Jesus forgives people and that is a part of salvation? Why do people need to be forgiven of sin if that is not a part of salvation? Did David just simply lose the joy of his salvation when he sinned or did he lose his salvation in Psalms 51? I am inclined to believe that he needed to restore his salvation and the joy that naturally comes with it.

No, I believe it can, because God can do all things "[...]will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy."

This is a favorite verse used by Calvinists. God does not show mercy in the Calvinistic sense (if that is what you are implying).

Romans 9:9-16 is a refutation of the Israelite's false belief of “Works Alone Salvationism” (without Jesus and His grace) but salvation is by him who calls upon the name of the Lord Jesus (Compare Romans 9:11 with Romans 10:13).

But I wouldn't bank on that, I would not tell anyone they can wait untill they are in a death bed to get right with God.

Nowhere did I ever say for a person to do this, though. Nobody can outsmart God. If that is their intention, then obviously that is not going to work because they want their life of sin and then they want Heaven, too. But… like the thief on the cross, he did not live a life full of holiness and or doing great works to show his faith. The thief primarily had to rely upon the Lord’s mercy to be saved.

This parable goes to show only the mercy of God can save us.
The difference between the two is: the pharisee didn't ask for forgiveness, the publican did. The publican fears the Lord, the pharisee doesn't. The publican confesses, the pharisee doesn't. The pharisee exalts himself above his brother and breaks the 2nd commandment, the publican is humble, and doesn't.
So before the publican can be justified, he must first realize only God can justify him, and therefore trust only God, be humble, fear the Lord, keep the commandments, confess his sins, and ask for mercy.
As you can see much work needs to be done in a persons life before she is jutified by God.
You don't convince me that because you read 1 Corinthians 15 you are a justified, humble, God fearing, law abiding, saved person who has confessed their sins and asked for mercy.. Because you haven't, you have only received the seed, you haven't bare fruit. Like the pharisee thanked God thinking he was justified when he wasn't, so are you thanking God for the seed, thinking you are "initially justified" when you are not.

The Tax Collector was said to be justified and he simply admitted he was a sinner before God. Not sure how this truth agrees with your theology, friend. It simply doesn’t.

But you want to be "initially saved" before you do any of the works.. You are saying the publican was "initially justified" before he even prayed for mercy.

No. The Tax Collector was justified WHEN he prayed for mercy. I also did not write the Bible and so it is not what I want to be true, but it is simply a fact of the Bible. What do you do with verses like Romans 11:6, and Titus 3:5, and Ephesians 2:8-9? Again, I am not stating that a believer who lives out their faith will remain in a state of believing in God’s grace alone with no changed life, either. The believer then needs to continue in Gods plan of salvation by entering the Sanctification Process by the power of God working through them.

Or that all the soils where the seed landed were "initially saved", before they even grew and bare fruit..
You are going against Scripture and the parables of Jesus that we have looked at.
It's like someone picked up salvation and turned it upside down.
Isaiah 1:4 Ah sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, a seed of evildoers, children that are corrupters: they have forsaken the Lord, they have provoked the Holy One of Israel unto anger, they are gone away backward.

Again, if a plant is growing and has life it symbolizes that it has eternal life. For the plant being choked by thorns shows that it was losing eternal life. Do you not believe that saints can lose salvation? That is what this parable is teaching. They did not endure with God through God’s plan of salvation. They received the message with joy. Again, why would they be joyful if they were still lost? What you propose makes absolutely no sense. You have taken works too far so as to replace God’s saving grace and that is wrong, my friend.

So "Initial salvation" is not salvation at all, just remove the word "salvation", because they are not saved. Don't deceive people, It's like a 10 steps stairway, you put your foot on the 1st step and say I have "initially climbed" this stairway.. You haven't, im sorry man.

No sir. What you say is not true. What is the gospel in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4? Did you not receive this gospel? Is it believing something, or is it doing something? Are you saved by this gospel?

It ain't over untill it's over, and it ain't over yet..
John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Right, this only proves my case that salvation is not as one dimensional as you assume. Our bodily resurrection is another aspect of salvation.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The reason you don't understand my point, and see these things as a contradiction, is because you deny sin in yourself.

Believers are to walk by faith and not by sight (or their own experience). So if you believe that your experience is the same as everyone else’s experience that is just a false assumption.

But again, what does 2 Corinthians 7:1, and Galatians 5:24 say? How would you interpret these verses in light of what you just said?

To deny the need for grace is arrogance.

Actually I believe Christians need to be concerned with two aspects of salvation. The believer needs to first be initially saved by God’s grace and make that their foundation, and then they are to enter the Sanctification Process by the Lord’s power as a part of God’s plan of salvation. For while there is the gospel of the grace of God (Acts of the Apostles 20:24), with the definition of the gospel being mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, there is also the CALL of the gospel (of which I imagine you have no clue about). 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 gives us the call of the gospel (Note: This is not the gospel, but it is the call of the gospel). The call of the gospel (verse 14) is that…. God has chosen you to salvation through “Sanctification of the Spirit,” and a belief of the truth (verse 13).

Those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.

While I do believe we must be humble in receiving God’s grace (seeking forgiveness with the Lord) like in the Parable of the Tax Collector and the Pharisee (Luke 18:9-14), believers also must agree with the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine according to godliness, too. If not, they are proud and they know nothing.

1 Timothy 6:3-4
“If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing…”

So if any man does not agree or consent with the words of Jesus and the doctrine according to godliness, they are proud and they know nothing. James 4:6 says God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble.

This is incredibly convoluted!
1 John 1.8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us.

This is a word to Christians--not about their past as non-Christians, but about their present experience as Christians! We know that because the letter is addressed to Christians, focusing upon the validity of their current Christian faith.

Those who claim that things they've done *as Christians* in the past are not sin are liars. Those who claim they don't have a Sin Nature presently are also liars. So, these Christians who deny sin are very much like unbelievers who also deny sin.

Okay. First, the apostle John was warning the brethren about those who were trying to seduce them.

“These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.” (1 John 2:26).

Second, 1 John 1:8 is a warning about the false gnostic belief that denied sin’s existence. For again, we both AGREE on 1 John 1:10. We both agree that 1 John 1:10 is a false belief of a person denying that they have never sinned in the past ever. For we both AGREE that we have sinned in our past life before coming to Jesus Christ. If this is the case, then 1 John 1:8 is saying a similar thing. It is a denial of sin’s existence in the present tense if a person sins. It’s a gnostic belief that is basically saying sin is an illusion. So John prescribes that one should not ignore sin if they do happen to sin, but they need to confess of it in order to be forgiven of that sin as the proper remedy. For if we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. For there is nothing in the context about some kind of sin nature as you mentioned in 1 John 1:8. This is referring to a warning to the brethren about how they should not be seduced by the false gnostic belief that says a person can deny sin’s existence (Whereby they think they can sin and still be saved). In other words, 1 John 1:8 is written to most of Christianity today who believes they are saved solely on trusting in the finished work of the cross (even if they were to sin).

Three, what do you do with 1 John 2:4? Do you just throw that verse away? For you cannot believe and accept 1 John 2:4 and also accept the candy coated immoral “we all sin 24/7” interpretation on 1 John 1:8. Also, 1 John 1:9 is a remedy of being cleansed of all unrighteousness by our confessing sin. How exactly does that work in your view of 1 John 1:8?

 

[DaDaBrothers]

It ain't over untill it's over, and it ain't over yet..
John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

You are only truly saved when God says so, at judgement day. Likewise Christ only raises you at the last day.
Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment
The truth is: until the day of your judgement, you don't know if you’re saved or not, because God has the final say in the matter, at the end of your life. Until then we’re still beeing judged, for what we do..

Are you honestly trying to tell me that the woman who was crying in thankfulness that her sins were forgiven was not saved?

Her sins were forgiven, so if she were to be judged right there, she would be justified, but life goes on.. Im telling you she must "go and sin no more" just like Jesus told her, she must show her faith by her works, she must prove herself loyal, because if she goes rigth back into adultery again there is no point in forgiving her.

They were saved two times in one day.

They were saved two times from two different threats. I told you no man is saved two times from hell (very specific threat). Because there is only one judgement day. After this the reward.

Right, and the first work of God is to believe in Jesus.

“Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.” (John 6:29).

Everything in salvation is thanks to God’s Grace, I admitted that God does the watering, the sowing, the seed, everything basically, but he gave us free will.. "Believe" is of course refering to true faith with works, no man is saved by dead faith. But even my faith is God’s Grace, I couldn’t have believed on Him without the Father had drawn me first. So I have to thank Him, even for the oppurtunity to believe on Him in the first place.

was the thiefs actions alone that truly saved him or was it God's grace?

God’s Grace, of course. (Im not saying works alone) Im saying our works are worth it, if we work for God He will pay us very well.. So if we look closely.. God is pleased with faith. So it’s not too far fetch to say: the thief’s works of true faith pleased God there, consoling the Lord Jesus and giving Him strenght when he needed it. So it is evident the thief’s works have pleased God and He decided to be gracious towards him. Still It wasn’t the works that saved him, it was the grace of God.

For according to the Law, the woman caught in the act of adultery should have been stoned, but Jesus said he that is without sin let him cast the first stone. Again, do you fail to understand that Jesus forgives people and that is a part of salvation?

No, before judgement Jesus will forgive and give everyone the chance to repent during your lifetime. But after death is a different story, that is why we will be judged by God, who is without sin, and He will cast the stone if she is in adultery.

The Tax Collector was said to be justified and he simply admitted he was a sinner before God.

Luke 19:8 And Zacchaeus stood, and said unto the Lord: Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor; and if I have taken any thing from any man by false accusation, I restore him fourfold.

He repented, his hearth was changed, he was no longer greedy, but he now gave to the poor, all fruits of true living faith. And then in the next verse salvation comes to his house.
So, now that he has been forgiven, all he has to do is not go back to his sin.

The believer then needs to continue in Gods plan of salvation by entering the Sanctification Process by the power of God working through them.

Yes, you know what? I understand now what you mean with "Initially saved", they are forgiven, justified, saved, by the grace of God, "initially" not yet, not fully, not defenitely, not eternally secured. And after this, the true test beggins, to see what they do with God’s Grace, do they turn it into lasciviousness and go back to sin by their lack of faith, or are they true believers who forsake their sins and live for God.
And then God will judge based on what they did. But still, I would call it "Initially forgiven" or "1st Work of Grace", because "saved" and justified are terms I associated with God’s final decision on Judgement day. My bad.

if a plant is growing and has life it symbolizes that it has eternal life

Yes "symbolizes", but is just that, a glimpse. So it doesn’t have eternal life yet, the plant must grow until it bares fruit (endure to the end) and only on the last day will eternal life be given. Eternal life is the reward after judgement, let the plant grow in fear of the Lord, not thinking it is already justified.

Is it believing something, or is it doing something?

Both, Faith without works is dead, If you believe something, you act upon it, If you believe Jesus is King, you bow your knee. If you don’t do the works it means you have no faith.

Our bodily resurrection is another aspect of salvation.

You see it has just another aspect of salvation, as if you were "Initially saved" already and then were saved again, and another time by mistake, and by the time you arrive in front of the throne of God, you think you have already been "saved" five times in a row so you are saved already but ops you forget you haven’t even been judged yet..
I see it as the only salvation, the only time you can say, Aww, Now Im saved, because God said so (after judgement), and then you start singing giving thanks and praises for ever and ever, Amen.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

It ain't over untill it's over, and it ain't over yet..
John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

I am not in disagreement with final salvation like Glorification (Whereby God bodily resurrects us) on the account of our faith in His grace, and our faithfulness to Him.

You are only truly saved when God says so, at judgement day. Likewise Christ only raises you at the last day.
Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment
The truth is: until the day of your judgement, you don't know if you’re saved or not, because God has the final say in the matter, at the end of your life. Until then we’re still beeing judged, for what we do..

Then why did the apostle John say this to the brethren?

“These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.” (1 John 5:13).​

They had an assurance that they may know that they have eternal life by believing in the NAME of the Son of God. It was not believing in their obedience to His commands, but believing in the NAME of the Son of God.

But in your version of the truth: Did they travel to the future and see themselves saved at the judgment to have an assurance that they know that they have eternal life? Is that what you believe the apostle John is talking about?

Yes, I believe in Final Salvation, but 1 John 5:13 is not talking about that.
So we have to rightly divide “Initial salvation verses,” (or trusting in His grace verses), vs. “Sanctification for salvation verses,” etc.

Her sins were forgiven, so if she were to be judged right there, she would be justified,

Right, she would have been saved. She was initially saved. That’s what I am talking about.

but life goes on.. Im telling you she must "go and sin no more" just like Jesus told her, she must show her faith by her works, she must prove herself loyal, because if she goes rigth back into adultery again there is no point in forgiving her.

Right, and I am not in disagreement with the second aspect of salvation whereby we need to be faithful as a part of the Sanctification Process AFTER we are saved by God’s grace. But nobody can just be faithful and obey God without first being saved by God’s grace because a person’s past slate of sin needs to be wiped out by His grace. So yeah. There is an Initial Salvation but that is not where salvation ends of course. Salvation continues and progresses with the Sanctification Process by the Spirit.

They were saved two times from two different threats. I told you no man is saved two times from hell (very specific threat). Because there is only one judgement day. After this the reward.

Right, one threat is that your sin needs to be wiped out and that can only happen if you seek forgiveness with the Lord Jesus Christ, and you believe in the gospel in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 that says to believe that Christ died for your sins, He was buried, and He was risen three days later. The other threat is not continuing with God in the Sanctification Process so as to live a holy life. For without holiness, no man shall see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14). But if we also deny in being saved initially by His grace, that is also just as equally bad. For the Jew was not able to enter into righteousness because they sought righteousness initially by the works of the Law and not by faith. The Jew made salvation all about works and no grace.

Everything in salvation is thanks to God’s Grace, I admitted that God does the watering, the sowing, the seed, everything basically, but he gave us free will.. "Believe" is of course refering to true faith with works, no man is saved by dead faith. But even my faith is God’s Grace, I couldn’t have believed on Him without the Father had drawn me first. So I have to thank Him, even for the oppurtunity to believe on Him in the first place.

You don’t appear to believe that you are saved until you did a good work (of which you are not sure which good works determine will save you).

God’s Grace, of course. (Im not saying works alone) Im saying our works are worth it, if we work for God He will pay us very well.. So if we look closely.. God is pleased with faith. So it’s not too far fetch to say: the thief’s works of true faith pleased God there, consoling the Lord Jesus and giving Him strenght when he needed it. So it is evident the thief’s works have pleased God and He decided to be gracious towards him. Still It wasn’t the works that saved him, it was the grace of God.

But our actions should reflect our being saved by God’s grace, though. You appear to think that if you do works of faith initially that is what accesses the saving grace of God and this is not so (Note: Yes, I am aware of 1 Corinthians 15:10 and 1 John 1:7, but these things are after we are saved by His grace). The way to access the saving grace of God is to realize that it is not by our doing any kind of works initially (Ephesians 2:8-9) (Titus 3:5) (Romans 4:3-5) (Romans 11:6). We must throw ourselves down before the mercy of God alone and seek His forgiveness and ask Jesus to come into our life and to change our heart. We must believe that what saves us is the GOSPEL in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. This gospel is for salvation and it is based on a belief alone. We must believe for salvation (as a part of our initial salvation) that Christ died for our sins, He was buried, and He was risen three days later for our salvation. This is a belief alone. This is a part of how we get initially saved. 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 is the gospel that we RECEIVE and STAND UPON. It’s what 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 says. Just read it for yourself.

No, before judgement Jesus will forgive and give everyone the chance to repent during your lifetime. But after death is a different story, that is why we will be judged by God, who is without sin, and He will cast the stone if she is in adultery.

You most likely think “repent” exclusively means to forsake sin like many today.

I believe the Sinner’s Prayer is just another way of the Bible saying to “Repent.”

A Biblical Case For Repentance (or the Sinner’s Prayer):

At the heart, I believe the Bible teaches that "Repentance" means, "Asking God for forgiveness" or the Sinner’s Prayer (Which of course naturally then leads to the "fruits of repentance", i.e. obedience to the Lord):

Important Note: While I may believe "Repentance" does involve to a certain degree a "change of mind" (like a person changing their mind about their old life of sin), I do not think "Repentance" exclusively means a “change of mind.”

"Asking God for forgiveness of sin" can either refer to: The "Sinner's Prayer" (Initial Salvation) (Romans 10:13), and or the seasoned believer "Confessing one's sin" (Continued Salvation) (See 1 John 1:9, 1 John 2:1).

Anyways, here are my ten points using Scripture showing that "repentance" means "asking God for forgiveness of sin.”

#1. Acts 2:38,
The New Living Translation says in Acts 2:38 to "repent of your sins."
Douay Reheims says in Acts 2:38 to "Do penance."
New Life Version says in Acts 2:38 to "Be sorry for your sins"

#2. Luke 17:3 says, "Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him." This doesn't make any sense if "repent" means believe in Jesus (as some teach) or to have a change of mind about sin (as others teach) or to exclusively forsake sin. Yes, we are to forsake sin as a part of repentance but that comes later after repentance (Which is to ask God for forgiveness of our sin). For how can we reconcile with a brother if we do not say we are sorry vs. just going on about life as if we did nothing wrong?

#3. Jesus said in Matthew 12:41 that the Ninevites will rise up in Judgment against this generation because they repented at the preaching of Jonah. If you were to turn to Jonah chapter 3, you would be able to see in Jonah 3:6-10 that the King of the Ninevites had told his people to:

(a) Cry out to God (i.e. Repentance) (See Jonah 3:8).
(b) Turn from their sins or evil ways (i.e. The Natural Fruits of Repentance).
​

#4. Matthew 3:6 (which then lines up with Matthew 3:8). Also, in Mark 1:4-5, it says John preached the "baptism of repentance" for the remission of sins (verse 4), and it then defines this "baptism of repentance" by saying they confessed their sins when they were baptized (verse 5).

#5. We see in Acts of the Apostles 8:22 a clear example of Peter telling Simon to "repent" of his wickedness in trying to pay for the Holy Spirit. Peter is telling Simon to make a prayer towards God. For Peter says that he should pray that God might forgive him. In other words, Peter is telling Simon to repent of a one time event of wickedness by way of prayer to GOD. This only makes sense if "repent" means to "ask for forgiveness."

#6. Ezekiel 14:6 says,
"Repent, and turn yourselves from your idols;" Repent makes the most sense here if a person is asking God for forgiveness by way of prayer instead of a person just believing in God. Naturally a person believes in God as their Savior if they are planning on forsaking their idols.

#7. We see repentance is the topic of discussion in Luke 15 (Luke 15:6) (Luke 15:10); This is then followed up by the "Parable of the Prodigal Son" with the son desiring to be reconciled with his father. We learn the WAY the Prodigal Son desired to be reconciled with his father when he said,

"I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee, And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants." (Luke 15:18-19).

In other words, the Prodigal Son was seeking forgiveness. This ties into the point of repentance in Luke 15:6 and Luke 15:10.

#8. Luke 10:13 says,
"Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works had been done in Tyre and Sidon, which have been done in you, they had a great while ago repented, sitting in sackcloth and ashes." This rules out the theory that repentance is exclusively forsaking sin. Granted, forsaking sin always follow true repentance (Asking God for forgiveness of one's sins) but forsaking sin is not repentance. The word "repented" here is describing a one time event because they "repented", sitting in sackcloth and ashes. In Jonah 3:6 we learn that the King of Nineveh sat in sackcloth and ashes. In Jonah 3:8, the King of Nineveh tells people to put on sackcloth, and cry mightily unto God (i.e. repentance): and then turn from their evil way (i.e. the fruits of repentance).

#9. John the Baptist says we are to bring forth fruits worthy of repentance (Luke 3:8). Fruits are deeds (or obedience to God). How can repentance be the same thing as the fruit? Is the fruit the same thing as the tree?

#10. Jeremiah 8:6 says, "I hearkened and heard, but they spake not aright: no man repented him of his wickedness, saying, What have I done? every one turned to his course, as the horse rusheth into the battle." Here we see the word "repented of wickedness" tied with the words, "What have I done?" This is an acknowledgement of one's sin to God as a part of asking His forgiveness.​

Notable Additional Verses that Deal with Repentance
(But They Do Not Use The Word "Repent" or "Repentance"):

"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." (Romans 10:13).

13 "And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted. (Luke 18:13-14).

Proverbs 28:13 says whosoever confesses and forsakes sin shall have mercy.

I will address the rest of what you wrote in another post (Lord willing and according to His timing).

May you blessed in the Lord.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Luke 19:8 And Zacchaeus stood, and said unto the Lord: Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor; and if I have taken any thing from any man by false accusation, I restore him fourfold.

He repented, his hearth was changed, he was no longer greedy, but he now gave to the poor, all fruits of true living faith. And then in the next verse salvation comes to his house.
So, now that he has been forgiven, all he has to do is not go back to his sin.

We do not have a complete record of every believer in the Bible and what they did. But we know that by looking at the whole counsel of God’s Word that we need to first be saved by God’s grace before we obey (Especially when the New Covenant went into effect with Christ’s death). Zacchaeus was not a rebellious sinner being told to repent. Jesus commanded Zacchaeus to come down from the tree and that He would abide in His house. Zacchaeus’ response was not a hesitant one. This could potentially suggest that Zacchaeus already decided to get his heart with the Lord before His physical incarnate encounter with Jesus.

Luke 19:5-6
5 And when Jesus came to the place, he looked up, and saw him, and said unto him, Zacchaeus, make haste, and come down; for to day I must abide at thy house.
6 And he made haste, and came down, and received him joyfully.

Yes, you know what? I understand now what you mean with "Initially saved", they are forgiven, justified, saved, by the grace of God, "initially" not yet, not fully, not defenitely, not eternally secured. And after this, the true test beggins, to see what they do with God’s Grace, do they turn it into lasciviousness and go back to sin by their lack of faith, or are they true believers who forsake their sins and live for God.
And then God will judge based on what they did. But still, I would call it "Initially forgiven" or "1st Work of Grace", because "saved" and justified are terms I associated with God’s final decision on Judgement day. My bad.

Thank you for seeing it. I say this because the Bible says in places like Ephesians 2:8-9 that by grace are ye saved by faith and not of works lest any man should boast. This is referring to the 1st work of grace and or in being initially saved by seeking forgiveness with the Lord Jesus Christ. But yes. They must continue with God to the end in being faithful to the Lord so as to be saved in the End, too. Salvation has four different tenses. Jesus saved all of mankind in the sense of providing an atonement for mankind as a way of escape, but in order for this atonement or plan of salvation to work, they need to be saved by God’s grace through faith and then they need to be faithful to the Lord in the Sanctification Process.

Yes "symbolizes", but is just that, a glimpse. So it doesn’t have eternal life yet, the plant must grow until it bares fruit (endure to the end) and only on the last day will eternal life be given. Eternal life is the reward after judgement, let the plant grow in fear of the Lord, not thinking it is already justified.

The plant may not have FINAL eternal life, but it did have eternal life at the beginning because the plant growing and being alive is symbolic of eternal life. They received the Word with joy. Nobody who is not saved experience joy at receiving God’s Word. Why would they receive the Word with joy if they are not saved? They would be in fear if they still needed to do something so as to be saved later by doing works, but that is not what is described in this parable.

Both, Faith without works is dead, If you believe something, you act upon it, If you believe Jesus is King, you bow your knee. If you don’t do the works it means you have no faith.

James is talking about the kind of faith AFTER one is saved by God’s grace without the deeds of the Law. James is not talking about how to get initially saved by God’s grace through faith in Christ like in Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5, Romans 4:3-5, and Romans 11:6.

You see it has just another aspect of salvation, as if you were "Initially saved" already and then were saved again, and another time by mistake, and by the time you arrive in front of the throne of God, you think you have already been "saved" five times in a row so you are saved already but ops you forget you haven’t even been judged yet..
I see it as the only salvation, the only time you can say, Aww, Now Im saved, because God said so (after judgement), and then you start singing giving thanks and praises for ever and ever, Amen.

But this is dangerous because it falls under one trying to be saved by Works Alone without recognizing that we are initially and foundationally saved by God’s grace. We cannot put the cart before the horse. This is what the parable of the Tax Collector and the Pharisee is all about. The Pharisee was more justified because he cried out to God in seeking forgiveness of his sins with the Lord. The Pharisee did not do this and therein lied the problem. Again, I am not against the second aspect of salvation with a believer having to enter the Sanctification Process as a part of God’s plan of salvation. It’s not that we get saved two times, but salvation is progressive and moves from one phase to the next as we grow and mature in the Lord in our walk with Him by studying His Word. Believers can be IN THE KINGDOM and yet later cast out because of their sin (by Christ’s angels). They are in the Kingdom because of God’s grace, but if they justified sin, they are going to be cast into the furnace of fire (See: Matthew 13:41-42). For Jesus has to cast out those who do iniquity in His Kingdom before He can give His kingdom back to God the Father. Jesus is the source of eternal life (1 John 5:12) (1 Timothy 6:16). So if we abide in Christ by receiving Him initially with our seeking forgiveness of our sins with Him, and by our believing in the gospel message in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, then we will CONTINUE with Him by obeying His commands. Jesus is the SOURCE of ETERNAL LIFE.

“And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.” (1 John 5:20).

 

[prophecy_uk]

BibleHighlighter: "Some have suggested that 1 John 2:1 is not connected to 1 John 1:9"



Yes, we do as told, SEE THE MATCHING TESTIMONY IN THESE THREE QUOTES, which MATCH 1 John 2:5.

To forget what was behind, to reach to what is before us ( the race set before us) we press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling in Jesus Christ, this is for as many as be perfect, leaving all the principles of discussion of the doctrine of Christ, to go unto perfection, to quit looking back to 1 John 1:9, of returning into vomit. This is keeping the word of Christ, Gods love is perfected in us by all those things, not by looking back at all..



Philippians 3:13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

Hebrews 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

Hebrews 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

1 John 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.




Then, when we lay aside the sin ( not turning back into it) we then run the race before us ( some think that is turning back sometimes/occasionally)

But we run to obtain an incorruptible crown, not mans idea of a corruptible crown, by being temperate in all things, by bringing our body into subjection to not be a castaway/hypocrite.

For all did sin to come short of this glory/prize of running forward, now justified by Christ, who is the propitiation, for the sins THAT ARE PAST.

Loving not our brother is not knowing God, God sent the Son to be PROPITIATION FOR OUR SINS, and if we love one another it is when God dwells in us and His love then is perfected in us.

If a MAN SINS, we have an advocate with the Father, to be PROPITIATION FOR OUR SINS, Jesus Christ, and who keeps His word ( of righteousness) in him the love of God then is perfected.

Because the ones who love their brother now ( they go forward to that mark of perfection in Christ) never stumble, but the ones who say they are in the light, but hate their brother ( looking back stumbling "occasionally") are a murderer, and no eternal life ( Jesus Christ is eternal life) is abiding in them as no love is in them at all. Little children are forgiven for His name sake, this is the difference, His name in them and His word abiding in them ( when His word abides in them they overcome the name of the beast) and if you walk as men, you are yet carnal and not spiritual at all..





1 Corinthians 9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.
25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.
26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:
27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

1 John 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.
12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

1 John 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

1 John 2:9 He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.
10 He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.
11 But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.
12 I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake.

1 John 2:14 I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.


1 John 3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

1 Corinthians 3:And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

 

[prophecy_uk]

Randy: "The Apostle John in 1 John 1 verifies that Christians have a sin nature. Everything the NT authors write assume that Christians have a Sin Nature, since they are constantly exhorted to essentially "grow up." They are to fight spiritual warfare, and to resist temptation. They are to put on Christ, and to avoid our carnal impulses."


Putting on Christ is a new nature, exhortation is because many are called and few are chosen, and do not put on Christ. When we put on Christ you do fight spiritual warfare, against the devils spirit still in the children of disobedience, who claim Christ is in them in sin. See below how no unclean person is in the Kingdom, so when they claim 1 John 1 says they keep getting unclean to be cleansed again, they lie..

Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

John 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Acts 26:18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

Ephesians 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

Colossians 3:5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:

Ephesians 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

 

[prophecy_uk]

Clare: "We "are by nature objects of God's wrath" (Ephesians 2:3), which nature we are born with.
Objects of wrath is not because our nature is righteous, but sinful."




Time past they walked according to this world, the spirit of this world, the power of the air, the spirit that works in the children of disobedience, who are by nature children of wrath..


Ephesians 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.




Now, quickened together wih Christ, raised up to sit with Christ in Heavenly places, we being renewed in the Spirit, put on the new man created after the (image) righteousness and true holiness of God..



Ephesians 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:


Ephesians 4:23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

 

[prophecy_uk]

BibleHighlighter: "There is an Initial Salvation but that is not where salvation ends of course. Salvation continues and progresses with the Sanctification Process by the Spirit."


The flesh profits nothing, the Spirit does all, and quickens us from the sin, so there is no forgiveness of sin without the Spirit quickening us at the same time.

Because to have a carnal mind is yet in sin and death by sin, the Spirit is life and sets us free ( from sin ) and then when Christ is in you, the body is dead to sin ( when forgiven and cleansed of all sin ) bu.t the Spirit gives life because of righteousness, so doing unrighteousness is of course death ( cant have it both ways) because the letter kills, but the Spirit in us (is what gives and brings life/forgiveness of the sins that brought the death) and cleaned to walk in righteousness..

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Romans 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

Romans 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

2 Corinthians 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

 

[prophecy_uk]

Clare: "Precisely. . .the Jew is born with his nature (Galatians 2:15)--Jewish genes,
just as all mankind is born with its nature--sin."


Not genes as you speak, but as God's word speaks, Jews by nature, which is not sinners by nature, as Christ is not that minister of sin that many wish he was, but if you do transgression then you are a sinner of the Gentiles...


Galatians 2:15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,

Galatians 2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.



This continues, the uncircumcision by nature ( the believer in Christ as Christ made of twain one NEW MAN) and all are children of God now, to be Abraham's seed according to the promise, neither Jew nor Greek, for all are one in Christ Jesus. Abraham being the father of us all, ( of the many nations) fulfils the law, as he is NOT A JEW, in the flesh, but, HE IS A JEW, when circumcision of the heart ( we are all this by the circumcision of Christ)..



Galatians 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Romans 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

Ephesians 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

Romans 2:27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.


Not all Israel that are of Israel, but in Isaac are they all called, as all children of the flesh are neither the children of God, nor the children of Israel, but the children of the promise are, children of God, a Jew and are Israel, and those today who say they are Israel, are not, neither are they the circumcision, but we are who worship God in the Spirit and nothing in the flesh who are evil workers....



Romans 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Philippians 3:2 Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision.
3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.



Then new Jerusalem is the city of God, and we know the new name of Christ is this too, as His bride ( the church) is prepared ready for Him to this new Jerusalem and new Israel and the new man is the new Jew/ new circumcision of Christ



Revelation 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

Revelation 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

 

[prophecy_uk]

BibleHighlighter: "I will give you a real life illustration to help you relate because that is what Jesus did when He wanted to illustrate spiritual truth. If a husband cheats on his wife, can he just change his behavior and never say he is sorry to her and expect the relationship to be okay? In other words, if we stop the bad behavior, but we truly do not have any remorse over what we did, and we don’t show that with the one we offended, then there is no real purpose of forgiveness. We are saved by God's grace in the fact that the Lord cleanses you of all past sin when you first came to Him seeking His forgiveness (i.e. Asking Jesus to forgive you of your sins)."


Here is against that real life illistration. which says we should have remorse for our dishonest relationship.

God tells us, that Israel was not the wife, neither was God the husband nor their God. The whoredoms had to be put away ( of Israel) as they followed other lovers, until she discovered it was better with her with her first husband ( God first loved us/first love, and loved us washing us f those sins/ignorance)..



1 John 4:19 We love him, because he first loved us. ( Revelation 1:5)

Revelation 2:4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.


Hosea 2:2 Plead with your mother, plead: for she is not my wife, neither am I her husband: let her therefore put away her whoredoms out of her sight, and her adulteries from between her breasts;

Hosea 2:7 And she shall follow after her lovers, but she shall not overtake them; and she shall seek them, but shall not find them: then shall she say, I will go and return to my first husband; for then was it better with me than now.





Then God betroths us to Him, in righteousness, in the judgment, in the lovingkindness, and the mercies of Hos grace, when we are betrothed to Him in faithfulness..




Hosea 2:19 And I will betroth thee unto me for ever; yea, I will betroth thee unto me in righteousness, and in judgment, and in lovingkindness, and in mercies.
20 I will even betroth thee unto me in faithfulness: and thou shalt know the Lord.



Then us ( the adulteress) abide for God without being unfaithful, or being the harlot, to not be for another man ( of this world or for the devil) then God can be for us, then we seek the Lord and His goodness in the latter days of Christ..


Hosea 3:1 Then said the Lord unto me, Go yet, love a woman beloved of her friend, yet an adulteress, according to the love of the Lord toward the children of Israel, who look to other gods, and love flagons of wine.
2 So I bought her to me for fifteen pieces of silver, and for an homer of barley, and an half homer of barley:
3 And I said unto her, Thou shalt abide for me many days; thou shalt not play the harlot, and thou shalt not be for another man: so will I also be for thee.
4 For the children of Israel shall abide many days without a king, and without a prince, and without a sacrifice, and without an image, and without an ephod, and without teraphim:
5 Afterward shall the children of Israel return, and seek the Lord their God, and David their king; and shall fear the Lord and his goodness in the latter days.



Then we cannot take the members of Christ and make then any longer to be the members of a harlot, as we being joined to the Lord now ( in faithfulness and righteousness) are one Spirit, and we are presented to Christ as a chaste virgin..


1 Corinthians 6:15 Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid.
16 What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.
17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.

2 Corinthians 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

 

[prophecy_uk]

BibleHighlighter: "So Rick is driving down the road and he swerves to miss a truck that is about to hit him head on. He saved himself and his family in the car. Then later that day, he says something to a guy in traffic who is driving badly, and the guy says something about wanting to kill him. Rick decides to back off and apologizes for his heated words to the man. Little did Rick know that if he did not apologize to this man he would have been shot dead by this other guy who was looking for a reason to hurt someone badly. So again, Rick showing mercy and the other guy forgiving Rick's heated words led again to Rick and his family's salvation. They were saved two times in one day.

But again, I already provided verses that show clearly that we are saved by God's grace and not works in numerous places (Ephesians 2:8-9) (Titus 3:5) (Romans 4:3-5). Your not having to deal with these verses does not make them go away."





Looking at Titus 3, which shows a little more, we are SAVED by the washing of regeneration and the renewing of the Holy Ghost...


Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;



So Rick driving down the road, this time, is saved from the dangers of this world ( both spiritual warfare and day to day life) by heeding ( believing ) in the words of Jesus, to pray always to escape all of the things that come to pass, so we can stand, as Jesus delivered us from the wrath ( dangers ) to come, by praying to God always for being counted worthy to fulfil all God';s good pleasure to always glorify the name of our Lord Jesus Christ in us ( in Rick) but when the day of wrath ( danger) comes, who is able to stand..


Luke 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

1 Thessalonians 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

2 Thessalonians 1:11 Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:
12 That the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and ye in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Revelation 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

 

[prophecy_uk]

BibleHighlighter: "Right, and the first work of God is to believe in Jesus.

“Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.” (John 6:29).

This is being saved by God's grace and mercy."




You have to know righteousness to believe in righteousness, this is why it also says, the people in whose heart is the law of God, as we cant know the Lord, nor know righteousness, without God writing it in us by the Holy Ghost in the new covenant, so saved is all things at once or there is nothing..

Isaiah 51:7 Hearken unto me, ye that know righteousness, the people in whose heart is my law; fear ye not the reproach of men, neither be ye afraid of their revilings.

Romans 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.





BibleHighlighter: " For according to the Law, the woman caught in the act of adultery should have been stoned, but Jesus said he that is without sin let him cast the first stone. Again, do you fail to understand that Jesus forgives people and that is a part of salvation? Why do people need to be forgiven of sin if that is not a part of salvation? Did David just simply lose the joy of his salvation when he sinned or did he lose his salvation in Psalms 51? I am inclined to believe that he needed to restore his salvation and the joy that naturally comes with it."




Jesus forgives people, and the law is not forgiveness, that law was cruelty, as to kill is cruelty.

That is why, they needed to be without sin, as sin is hatred. Then Jesus without sin, can forgive and change us, to say go and sin no more (sinning more is nonsense ideas)

Then we have the law of kindness now, as the law needed to be changed, magnified to become honourable, and that righteousness of the law is fulfilled in us or broken and pretense and vain talk/excuses is all they have to offer instead, as we need to be as Christ, holy, harmless, separate from sinners, not sinning with them but learn what undefiled is, look it up some time..



Proverbs 31:26 She openeth her mouth with wisdom; and in her tongue is the law of kindness.

Isaiah 42:21 The Lord is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he will magnify the law, and make it honourable.

Romans 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Hebrews 7:26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;




BibleHighlighter: "If that is their intention, then obviously that is not going to work because they want their life of sin and then they want Heaven, too. But… like the thief on the cross, he did not live a life full of holiness and or doing great works to show his faith. The thief primarily had to rely upon the Lord’s mercy to be saved."



Intentions can only be good if God writes His good laws into our heart, that is by the Holy Spirit being given. You know if anyone does not have the Holy Spirit ( born again of God) if they do filthiness, and are an unclean person. This is how you know the thief goes with Christ, as on earth he would have done as all other with one mind and one Spirit do, the new covenant is man being cleaned of the filthiness, go read below..




Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Ephesians 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

Proverbs 30:12 There is a generation that are pure in their own eyes, and yet is not washed from their filthiness.

Ezekiel 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

2 Corinthians 7:1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

Ephesians 5:4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.

James 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.





BibleHighlighter: " The Tax Collector was said to be justified and he simply admitted he was a sinner before God" "No. The Tax Collector was justified WHEN he prayed for mercy."



Luke 18:14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.



The publican was justified rather than the other, because humbling ourselves is the way to Gods righteous Kingdom, rather than exalting ourselves. That is a work, by believing in righteousness in your heart, and by behaving in those ways before God.

Remember how Christ did this work, of faith, by humbling Himself to the death of the cross, and we are to do this same humbling way to the death too, we have to be faithful from the beginning of life( Jesus Christ in us) until the ending of our life to receive the crown of life.. ( endure to the end to be saved)..



Philippians 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Revelation 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.




BibleHighlighter: "Again, if a plant is growing and has life it symbolizes that it has eternal life. For the plant being choked by thorns shows that it was losing eternal life. Do you not believe that saints can lose salvation? That is what this parable is teaching"




Depends what plant it is, if it is the planting of the Lord ( a good tree) they are trees of righteousness, but if it is a plant of satan ( corrupt tree and the chaff) they produce immediately thorns and briars ( evil fruit).

The same as the devils seed cannot escape the damnation of hell, so Gods seed are more than conquerors..


Isaiah 61:3 To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the Lord, that he might be glorified.

Matthew 12:33 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.

Luke 6:43 For a good tree bringeth not forth corrupt fruit; neither doth a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.



Matthew 23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

Romans 8:37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

Jeremiah 13:23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil.

 

[Brightfame52]

Indeed, if Rom 5:18-19 were the only Scripture on the subject, then faith would have nothing to do with it. But since there are many other passages that tell us that we receive the benefit of the gift Jesus gave on the cross through our faith, faith has EVERYTHING to do with it.

They received the benefit of Christs obedience without faith. Rom 5:18-19

 

[Brightfame52]

Christ's death paid the penalty for man's sin and bought the benefits of salvation for them.

Let's start with justification, which is simply a declaration of "not guilty," of being in right standing with God's justice,
declared by God because of our faith, but always because of the work of Jesus on the cross which remitted our sin and made us "right" with God.

Romans 4:3, Romans 4:5 are about justification by faith apart from works.

Romans 5:19 is about the righteousness of Christ accounted/imputed to us, as it was credited/imputed to Abraham (Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:3) because of faith apart from works.

Both the justification (declaration of "not guilty") and the imputing of Christ's righteousness are because of the same faith, and occur at the same time, being the result of salvation (debt paid, sin removed) because of that same faith.

But all that comes to us through this faith (salvation, justification, righteousness) was "bought and paid for" by Jesus' atoning work on the cross.

Christs death actually Justified them He died for before they had faith. Faith would later be given the Justified to show them their Justification by Christ, hence the Just shall live by Faith, but they have to be Just first.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

To all:

Just so that you may know: Some may have implied by their words that I do not believe in the washing of regeneration of the Holy Ghost for salvation. However, I do believe in the washing of the regeneration of the renewing of the Holy Ghost for salvation in Titus 3:5. This is not something I was denying by any means because I did not bring it up. So anyone wanting to correct me on that would simply be assuming something falsely about what I believe. The Bible is extensive, and to mention everything on all points is too time consuming whereby I would have to write a book to address the issue. I am only addressing the main issue with another poster and I am not looking to cover every aspect of salvation as if I am writing a book.

May God bless you all in the name of Jesus Christ.

 

[DaDaBrothers]

They had an assurance that they may know that they have eternal life by believing in the NAME of the Son of God. It was not believing in their obedience to His commands, but believing in the NAME of the Son of God.

Yes, anyone who believes on the Son, may be assured he has eternal life.
1 John 2:25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.
John speaks in the present because God is so true to His word that you can say you already have it. But we still have to face death, right? We are not eternal yet. After death, judgement, and only after all this, will we eat of the Tree of Life, and will have eternal life.

In order to have eternal life you must believe in Jesus and abide in Him.
1 John 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
To abide in Him is to keep His word, His commandments, and walk even as He walked.
1 John 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1 John 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

So, until you keep His word, His commandments, and walk even as He walked (without sin) you dont have the Son, and you dont have eternal life.

she would have been saved. She was initially saved

She was forgiven, not saved. You are using the word saved to say forgiven. She must endure to the end before she is really saved.

first being saved by God’s grace because a person’s past slate of sin needs to be wiped out by His grace

Again using the word saved to say forgiven, forgiven by God’s Grace. Now the person can walk without sin.

Salvation continues and progresses

Salvation doesn’t continue, life does, and it continues because she is not saved yet, and is still up for judgement, if she were saved she would be in heaven.
Salvation is the point in time when God saves you from hell, then you are saved, until then you are beeing judged.

You don’t appear to believe that you are saved until you did a good work (of which you are not sure which good works determine will save you).

You don’t have eternal life until you believe and have the Son, and in order to have the Son you must do the works too, faith without works is dead. The works that determine if you are saved are those mentioned in 1 John : walk even as He walked, don’t sin, keep His commandments, keep His word.. You want to call it "saved" because you read 4 verses? I know you dont believe someone is "saved" right there, because you have your 2nd side of the coin where the real salvation is. So why call it "initially saved" if they are not saved?

You appear to think that if you do works of faith initially that is what accesses the saving grace of God

Yes, not only me but Scripture too. You must do the works of faith to have true faith in the Son and abide in Him, then your true belief will save you and abiding in him will grant you eternal life. But if by "saving grace" you mean forgiven, no, you dont need to work to be forgiven, He is rich in mercy and will forgive our sin, so we can get back up and live for Him, and "sin no more".

1 Corinthians 15:1-4. This gospel is for salvation and it is based on a belief alone.

Belief alone is death, you are not saved by dead faith. Either do the works or you have no faith. If by "salvation" you mean forgiven, yes, He is willing to forgive our sins, so you can "go and sin no more", because now you know what your sin did to the Lord.

Why would they receive the Word with joy if they are not saved?

Luke 8:18 Take heed therefore how ye hear: for whosoever hath, to him shall be given; and whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he seemeth to have.

Maybe they were deceived ? They tought they were "saved" when they werent. Scripture is clear, they "seemeth to have" but they didnt have anything, and even their joy will be taken away.

So it is clear you must believe on the Son to be saved, and you know what believe on the Son implies.
James 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
Dont deceive yourself, dont say you believe on Him and sin, dont say you abide in Him and sin, dont say you have eternal life if you dont have the Son, dont say you are saved because that is up for God to decide..
And dont use the word "saved" when you have the word forgiven. Reading four verses doesnt "save" anyone, believe on the Son instead, and I mean true faith with works.