Pfizer vaccine receives FDA approval.

[dogs4thewin]

I know nothing of their politics. I just know not to blindly trust if there is evidence of adverse effects.

ANYTHING medical is going to come with risks.

 

[Trogdor the Burninator]

No, they weren't rushed to market. They were studied for years, and often decades.

Incorrect. No-one has waited "for decades" while a vaccine in major use has been studied. The polio vaccine trials commenced in 1954 and completed in 1955, and it was licenced in the same year. Mass vaccinations then ran through to the end of the 1950s and beyond. Not "decades" or even "years"

 

[Trogdor the Burninator]

Sorry, no, I heard Fauci is connected to Pfizer despite MSM claims, and the Canadians I know hate Justin Trudeau.

So what was the point of asking the question if your response was always going to be "I don't believe your source"?

 

[TLK Valentine]

Sorry, no, I heard Fauci is connected to Pfizer despite MSM claims,

Did you hear it from anyone worth listening to?

 

[Pommer]

Sorry, no, I heard Fauci is connected to Pfizer despite MSM claims, and the Canadians I know hate Justin Trudeau.

I’m pretty sure that the director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases and the chief medical adviser to the president, is not legally able to “be connected” to any private-sector for-profit enterprise.

So either your “source” is wrong or you’re getting a PULITZER for this outstanding investigative reporting!

 

[HappyHope]

ANYTHING medical is going to come with risks.

Amen. The situation we have here is a little more specific. It mixes government, faith, and medicine. When it comes to government and medical circumstance, I have learned to label it "extreme caution" up to outright "danger."

Why?
1) As child my mother took me to a free state clinic to have a shot. After placing the needle in, the attendant quickly withdrew the needle without injecting me and apologized profusely. She had forgotten to draw the medicine. It was full of air. She said she had seen too many kids that day. She had not been thinking. Praise the Lord she came to before hurting me. Scary.

2) When I joined the military, they said I was a certain blood type and slapped it on my dog tags. This blood type is inconsistent with what the doctor told my parents at my birth and with my parents' blood types.

3) In Germany when I was in active labor, I kept calling the military hospital and begging them to let me come in to give birth. They reluctantly allowed to come in after a bit. I gave birth within 30 minutes of arriving, and promptly passed out afterwards. I had had to half walk down a hill/half carried by my husband to get there. (We weren't' authorized a rental car. Storknest situation from Turkey.) Kind of scary situation.

4) Second pregnancy: I was told to take antibiotics from military physicians during the first few weeks of pregnancy for a minor condition often solved through cranberry products. Antibiotics especially in the first trimester is a HUGE pregnancy NO NO. The baby died halfway through the pregnancy. An off-base civilian university doctor told me my baby might have been harmed by me taking antibiotics in the first few weeks of pregnancy.

5) In Japan I was in labor with my third baby when the military hospital forced me to sign a document saying I wasn't in labor. I had to go home and wait until my water broke. When it did, I went back to the hospital and gave birth within an hour of my water breaking at home.

6) In Turkey I went to the dental clinic with a toothache. A military dentist came out into the crowded waiting room and had me open my mouth in front of everyone and tell me I was fine. Back in the states about year later, a civilian dentist told me I needed a root canal. I had not been fine in Turkey.

7) When my husband was active duty he worked on fighter jets and was often covered in JP8 lubricant and the like. It was rumored these mechanics tended to have mostly daughters. There were flightline jokes about it. On a medical visit a military physician confirmed the military medical community had noticed the connection between crew chiefs, JP8, and daughters not sons. The hubby and I were shocked at the admittance. I understand now JP8 is not used to lube jets like in the past. Not sure if JP8 it was every officially acknowledged. I do know we conceived 3 girls for what it's worth.

8) My great aunt lost her first baby when military physicians gave her something that made her too drowsy to push during labor. The baby died.

9)****Not my personal experience but I remember when the first F22 pilots kept dying and refusing to fly the F22. They were potentially up for court marshal by going against direct orders. It was a scary situation. I felt for them. Those pilots at first were being forced to fly the unsafe aircraft Praise the Lord they discovered the problem and the suffering stopped.

Why have F-22 pilots passed out at the controls? Pentagon solves mystery.

When it comes to government and medicine, I see government as kind of an emotionless, rigid machine that can chew people up if one is not careful. I've learned to be careful.

 

[RestoreTheJoy]

Incorrect. No-one has waited "for decades" while a vaccine in major use has been studied. The polio vaccine trials commenced in 1954 and completed in 1955, and it was licenced in the same year. Mass vaccinations then ran through to the end of the 1950s and beyond. Not "decades" or even "years"

False. You need to review your history. By the way, no one even bothered with experimenting on animals with Covid, as it was so unsuccessful in earlier trials with mnra technology. Straight to humans.

"Research to understand polio was gradual for the first few decades of the 20th century. In 1935, a vaccination was attempted, first on monkeys and then on children in California. Though this vaccine yielded poor results, two more decades of research paved the way for the development of vaccines by Jonas Salk in 1953, and Albert Sabin in 1956.

After a trial of more than 1.6 million children, Salk's vaccine was adopted in the US by 1955.

How long it took to develop 12 other vaccines in history

History of polio vaccination

 

[TLK Valentine]

False. You need to review your history. By the way, no one even bothered with experimenting on animals with Covid, as it was so unsuccessful in earlier trials with mnra technology. Straight to humans.

"Research to understand polio was gradual for the first few decades of the 20th century. In 1935, a vaccination was attempted, first on monkeys and then on children in California. Though this vaccine yielded poor results, two more decades of research paved the way for the development of vaccines by Jonas Salk in 1953, and Albert Sabin in 1956.

After a trial of more than 1.6 million children, Salk's vaccine was adopted in the US by 1955.

How long it took to develop 12 other vaccines in history

History of polio vaccination

What are the odds that advances in science and research methodology have improved -- at least slightly -- in the last century?

 

[RaymondG]

What are the odds that advances in science and research methodology have improved -- at least slightly -- in the last century?

Is it ok that some are not as eager to bet on those odd as you are? Nothing wrong with a genuine fear of butterflies.....they are respected. I believe those who have a fear of the vaccine should be respected the same.

 

[TLK Valentine]

Is it ok that some are not as eager to bet on those odd as you are?

The odds that something which, a century ago took years to do can now be done in a matter of months, you mean?

Nothing wrong with a genuine fear of butterflies.....they are respected. I believe those who have a fear of the vaccine should be respected the same.

Your beliefs are noted -- whether or not they are respected is your problem and yours alone.

You believe "respect" to be an entitlement -- you are wrong.

 

[RaymondG]

The odds that something which, a century ago took years to do can now be done in a matter of months, you mean?

Yes those odds. Odds taken to avoid the 1% odds of dying from a disease..... There are some, as you know who took those odds and have died because of it. So they died trying to avoid the 1% chance of dying. Yeah of course, this is normal for vaccines.

I say it is normal for some to not trust new ones as well.

Your beliefs are noted -- whether or not they are respected is your problem and yours alone.

You believe "respect" to be an entitlement -- you are wrong.

So you tell me that you started a thread asking the below question:

Well, it's official now.

Thoughts?

....Knowing that you would only respect the thoughts of those who agreed with your side? Noted.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

Is it ok that some are not as eager to bet on those odd as you are? Nothing wrong with a genuine fear of butterflies.....they are respected.

The difference is fear of butterflies does not hurt others. Fear of medical expertise does hurt others when that fear causes people to spread a disease that has done so much damage and continues to do damage.

 

[RaymondG]

The difference is fear of butterflies does not hurt others. Fear of medical expertise does hurt others when that fear causes people to spread a disease that has done so much damage and continues to do damage.

Does it really? Those without the vaccine have been told to wear mask and socially distance.....and are now not allow to enter most establishments and cant work most jobs. Those who have been vaccinated were told, in the beginning, that they can take off the mask....dont need to quarantined after exposure, they can go wherever they want and work any job they want.

I have abided by the no vaccine mandated before being forced to vax....and still continue after, because I like personal space and not having to shave....and im not one to go many places.

There are many, include the OPer, who have gotten the virus before and after being vaccinated. For those people, it is possible that they were walking around without a mask, entering any building they desired, and working any job they desired, while carrying the virus and spreading it just as much as those who were unvaccinated could.. only difference would be the unvaccinated would have been required to have on a mask and stay away from people, while the vaccinated would not of had these restrictions.

Think about it....who is most likely to spread the disease here? Are the vaccinated not hurting others when they spread the virus simple because they chose to get a shot and take off the mask?

 

[TLK Valentine]

Yes those odds. Odds taken to avoid the 1% odds of dying from a disease.....

How many of that 1% have been people you knew?

There are some, as you know who took those odds and have died because of it. So they died trying to avoid the 1% chance of dying. Yeah of course, this is normal for vaccines.

I know no such thing... and I'm not going to learn it from your "sources."

....Knowing that you would only respect the thoughts of those who agreed with your side? Noted.

If you haven't figured out by now that your ideas aren't entitled to "respect" simply because they're yours, there's not much I or anyone else can do for you -- you're going to have to learn the hard way.

 

[RaymondG]

How many of that 1% have been people you knew?

I've told you already, that my family has been taking care of covid patients from the start... so of course we have seen people who have died from it. Not as respect worthy as your reading about it on the internet....but there are a few who will appreciate it.

And why would you ask one about person experiences right after telling them their opinions will not be entitled to be respected?

I know no such thing... and I'm not going to learn it from your "sources."

If you do not know that people can and have died from vaccines, it now puts into question everything you have said on these 19 pages......for it has been mad clear that you only look at and respect information that supports your claims.

If you haven't figured out by now that your ideas aren't entitled to "respect" simply because they're yours, there's not much I or anyone else can do for you -- you're going to have to learn the hard way.

It might be helpful to put a disclaimer in your OP.

"Although I am asking you for your opinion and thoughts.....I will not respect them if I do not agree with them....so do not feel entitled to such."

Not everyone knows or expects that their thoughts will not be respected, especially when they are asked to give them.

 

[TLK Valentine]

I've told you already, that my family has been taking care of covid patients from the start... so of course we have seen people who have died from it. Not as respect worthy as your reading about it on the internet....but there are a few who will appreciate it.

I've lost three friends and one family member to COVID. You cannot possibly imagine how little you opinion matters.

And why would you ask one about person experiences right after telling them their opinions will not be entitled to be respected?

Because if you have not yet figured out that respect is a thing to be earned through effort, you are beyond help.

If you do not know that people can and have died from vaccines, it now puts into question everything you have said on these 19 pages......for it has been mad clear that you only look at and respect information that supports your claims.

Earn my respect, then -- post a source.

It might be helpful to put a disclaimer in your OP.

"Although I am asking you for your opinion and thoughts.....I will not respect them if I do not agree with them....so do not feel entitled to such."

Not everyone knows or expects that their thoughts will not be respected, especially when they are asked to give them.

You are not entitled to your opinion, or to have it taken seriously. You are entitled only to that which you can support and defend.
Again, if you haven't figured that out by now, you will find few people in this world willing to humor you.

 

[RaymondG]

I've lost three friends and one family member to COVID. You cannot possibly imagine how little you opinion matters.



Because if you have not yet figured out that respect is a thing to be earned through effort, you are beyond help.



Earn my respect, then -- post a source.



You are not entitled to your opinion, or to have it taken seriously. You are entitled only to that which you can support and defend.
Again, if you haven't figured that out by now, you will find few people in this world willing to humor you.

Sorry for your lose....May you find comfort in all that gives you comfort. Thanks for the conversations.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

Think about it....who is most likely to spread the disease here? Are the vaccinated not hurting others when they spread the virus simple because they chose to get a shot and take off the mask?

There are very few places today where being vaccinated means you take off your mask. So the group you are talking about - people who are vaccinated but otherwise act irresponsibly - is a very small group. I find that the same people who distrust the vaccine also distrust masks. So unless there is a mask mandate that applies to everyone, they will not wear masks. There is no doubt that going unvaccinated is harmful to the common good.

 

[KCfromNC]

Does it really?

Yes. The unvaccinated are now clogging up hospitals because they refused to get vaccinated and caught covid. They're taking space away from people who acted responsibly.

 

[prodromos]

From The Israeli Public Emergency Council For The Covid19 Crisis
The Science And The Ethics Regarding The Risk Posed By Non-Vaccinated Individuals

1. The rate of vaccinated individuals among individuals with verified COVID19 cases is close to and even identical to their relative proportion in the population, even when sorted by age group, and even thoughthe regulations of the Ministry of Health encourage a large number of tests among the unvaccinated.
2. A number of studies and publications, as well as official documents from the S. Centers for Disease Control and from Public Health England, show that the viral load in vaccinated and unvaccinated individuals is similar. Since viral load is the most significant factor in the ability to infect, it seems that there are no significantdifferences in the chances of infecting others between vaccinated and unvaccinated. Beyond that, it seems that even vaccinated persons can be super-spreaders who infect many other people, among them other vaccinated persons.
3. Studies show that the rate of transmission of asymptomatic persons is 20 times lower than that of symptomatic patients (who are tested and isolated anyway, regardless of their vaccination status), so that the likelihood of an asymptomatic healthy person who does not know that they carry the virus to infect another person is significantly lower than 1%. Considering the rate of verified cases in the population, the chance of being infected from a randomencounter (as opposed to contact with household members) is about 1 in tens of thousands (the product of the percentage of contagious patients in the population and the rate of asymptomatic contagion).These findings show that despite the apparent effectiveness in protecting against severe illness, the effectiveness of the vaccination in preventing transmission and contagion is not significant and may even be negligible.From here it follows that an unvaccinated individual is not fundamentally different when it comes to the direct risk to transmit the virus compared to a vaccinated individual.
4. Countries with the highest vaccination rates, up to 80-90% of the population, still experience significant epidemic Iceland, for example, where 81% of the total population have been vaccinated (compared to 67% in Israel), iscurrently experiencing the highest wave of morbidity it has experienced since the onset of the pandemic. To illustrate, in order to reach Iceland’s vaccination level, Israel would have to vaccinate another 1.4 million citizens, well over the million of currently unvaccinated citizens (and even then, as mentioned, a new wave of the pandemic could not be prevented.) These data show that the vaccination of the remaining population will not prevent the next wave, as it seems that thesewaves continue to occur despite high rates of vaccination. Therefore, unvaccinated persons are not what causes the pandemic to continue, nor do they endanger the vaccinated in that aspect. In fact, it seems that the hope of eradicating COVID19 by achieving “herd immunity” through vaccination of a high-enough percentage of the population has been proven to be unrealistic.
5. At the time of writing this, COVID19 hospital beds make up about 3% of hospital beds in Israel, and about 30% ofpatients in critical condition are unvaccinated. In addition, the lion’s share of those who have not been vaccinated are young persons, whose likelihood of creating excessive burdens on the system are extremely low. The number of unvaccinated individuals in Israel is significantly lower than one million, as this population includes many who cannot or should not get vaccinated:

There is no scientific evidence whatsoever supporting the claim that non-vaccinated individuals are risking the public’s health in any way more than vaccinated people or that their lack of being vaccinated is a factor that facilitates the continuation of the pandemic or that causes a threat of collapse to the healthcare system. Vaccination should be treated as a primary means for providing personal protection against severe illness or death, especially for persons at high risk.