Anglicanism vs Catholicism

Paidiske

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As a convert from Methodism to the Episcopal Church, the latter's membership requirements always seems unclear to me. So, I am curious about your statement, "membership requires more than that."

I attended, communed, and gave sporadically for a few years before becoming confirmed. Years prior to confirmation, I remember one Sunday being told where I could pick up my information to vote in the annual meeting (eligible only to members). That was the first I realized they considered me a member before I did. I was never quite sure how I got that standing. I had never done any sort of letter of transfer from my UMC or even had a conversation with my Rector about membership. So, how does it happen? Is it common that one becomes a member without knowing it?

Hmm. I wonder if they are more lax about this in America than I am used to here.

Here, generally one would fill out a form applying to become a member, and would be voted into membership at the parish annual meeting. The main requirements are a valid baptism and renunciation of membership elsewhere. There is a gray area about parish membership when one has not been episcopally received as an Anglican first. In practice it often happens but according to the strict letter of the law I believe it's not meant to.

I had a very different first encounter with membership rules; I had been attending, giving, and participating (but not communing) for some time when someone invited me to become a member (fill out the form etc). When I replied that I hadn't been baptised I was assured that was a formality and it didn't matter. The parish priest had to come to me some time later, very embarrassed, and explain that in fact I was ineligible for membership before baptism.
 
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The Liturgist

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Except that the Province of Christ the King is not in communion Canterbury, and you are saying that these groups are still in communion with their founding bodies. Perhaps more like SSPX?

A lot of Anglican churches maintain two lists of "members." One is those people who broadly fall under your pastoral umbrella. Visiting three times and showing an interest would be enough to get you on that list. But the other is those who have voting rights, can stand for governing bodies, etc., and for that there's a more formal process.

I think SSPX would be a good analogy.
 
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The Liturgist

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Hmm. I wonder if they are more lax about this in America than I am used to here.

Here, generally one would fill out a form applying to become a member, and would be voted into membership at the parish annual meeting. The main requirements are a valid baptism and renunciation of membership elsewhere. There is a gray area about parish membership when one has not been episcopally received as an Anglican first. In practice it often happens but according to the strict letter of the law I believe it's not meant to.

I had a very different first encounter with membership rules; I had been attending, giving, and participating (but not communing) for some time when someone invited me to become a member (fill out the form etc). When I replied that I hadn't been baptised I was assured that was a formality and it didn't matter. The parish priest had to come to me some time later, very embarrassed, and explain that in fact I was ineligible for membership before baptism.

That had to be very awkward for him, but I think we are all glad you were baptized, as that led you to the beautiful life you have and put y you in a position to be friends with all of us. :)
 
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Paidiske

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That had to be very awkward for him, but I think we are all glad you were baptized, as that led you to the beautiful life you have and put y you in a position to be friends with all of us. :)

Oh, for sure, and that would be the normal course of events. Having not been baptised as an infant, and raised outside the church, though, I had to navigate some difficult issues before I got to that point.
 
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Oh, for sure, and that would be the normal course of events. Having not been baptised as an infant, and raised outside the church, though, I had to navigate some difficult issues before I got to that point.

I can certainly understand; I am just glad you navigated them and are here with us now!
 
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There is also a Norwegian Catholic Church which is in communion with the Polish National Catholic Church.

@ Corpus Christi Day in Norway

The feast that was most mentioned, perhaps because it makes them stand out culturally and brings a great many of them together, is Corpus Christi, the June procession in honor of the Eucharist. It used to be held just at the church, but over time has spread out into the streets. The procession in 2015 began at St. Paul’s church and traveled along a route through the museum area, along the lake at the center of Bergen, and up the hill to St. John’s church, a very large Church of Norway church on the hill above St. Paul’s, where they celebrated Mass in Norwegian. Along the way, the procession stopped at each of several altars representing some of the major ethnic groups of the parish. Some people in the parish — particularly the Vietnamese, but also a few Norwegians, dressed in traditional costumes.

People in the streets are said to have reacted with surprise, and see it as strange, but also stopped to ask questions. One participant concluded, “Corpus Christi is a way of asserting that Catholics belong here as much as anyone and are a part of Norwegian society. We are allowed to show that we are believers, and we have a right to show that and be heard.” A multicultural society and the increased number of Catholics, he said, make it easy for them to say that they have a public place in this society.

Corpus Christi remains religious feast for Catholic Norwegians
 
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PloverWing

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I attended, communed, and gave sporadically for a few years before becoming confirmed. Years prior to confirmation, I remember one Sunday being told where I could pick up my information to vote in the annual meeting (eligible only to members).

Did the voting info come from an ordinary member of the parish? Even as a vestry member, I don't know who's an official member of my parish and who isn't, because I think the priest is the only one who ever looks at the official register.

Here, generally one would fill out a form applying to become a member, and would be voted into membership at the parish annual meeting. The main requirements are a valid baptism and renunciation of membership elsewhere. There is a gray area about parish membership when one has not been episcopally received as an Anglican first. In practice it often happens but according to the strict letter of the law I believe it's not meant to.

Here in the US, I haven't seen a vote on membership at an annual meeting, so that part of the procedure may be different. Most commonly, people coming from other denominations are either Confirmed or Received, though the links in post #14 above suggest a gray area there, as you said. I think membership does always involve a conversation with the priest to say "I want to be a member here." I no longer remember if I had to fill out a form in 1991 when I joined my current parish. :)
 
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seeking.IAM

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Did the voting info come from an ordinary member of the parish? Even as a vestry member, I don't know who's an official member of my parish and who isn't, because I think the priest is the only one who ever looks at the official register.

No, it was part of the formal annual meeting process. Our church has a sign-in book at annual meeting for voting members and pre-printed annual meeting packets for members. They had me set up as a member to vote without my awareness I was one. I finally decided I wanted to become an Episcopalian and was confirmed a year or two later. Since then, I've served on the Vestry, as Jr. Warden, and Sr. Warden twice. I don't know who is and who isn't a member either.

In my UMC past, becoming a member always involved a formal process, including a service and vows in front of the congregation during worship. Outside of Confirmation, TEC - my TEC at least - seems to do the whole membership process much more low key while placing its greater emphasis on Confirmation. As an aside, becoming a member of a UMC as I recall always included a vow to financially support the church. I am not aware of a vow of support being required for either membership or Confirmation in TEC.

This experience has always made comparative denominational membership stats sketchy to me since the making and counting of members seems different from one denomination to another.
 
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Deegie

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Here in the US, I haven't seen a vote on membership at an annual meeting, so that part of the procedure may be different. Most commonly, people coming from other denominations are either Confirmed or Received, though the links in post #14 above suggest a gray area there, as you said. I think membership does always involve a conversation with the priest to say "I want to be a member here." I no longer remember if I had to fill out a form in 1991 when I joined my current parish. :)

I similarly have never seen an Episcopal church in the U.S. which votes on membership. As described in Canon 17 of the national church, any baptized person whose baptism is recorded in the church (whether conducted in that church or elsewhere) is a member. That typically comes from either being baptized in the church or by requesting to join and thus having one's information previous baptismal information recorded. As mentioned upthread, the next category is "communicant", which requires receiving communion three times in the preceding year. Finally, there is "communicant in good standing", which additionally requires being "faithful in corporate worship" and "working, praying, and giving for the spread of the Kingdom of God".

Once they are on the parish register, people only get removed from membership by death or transfer to another parish. There is an inactive status for those who simply drift away, but they technically remain members.

Here is how my diocesan canons describe who is eligible to vote in parish elections and annual meetings:

All baptized persons of the age of sixteen years and upwards, who regularly attend the public services of the Church in the Parish, and are recognized as members of the Parish by the Rector and at least one of the Wardens, or, if the Rector be not present, by the two Wardens, and whose names appear on the books of the Parish Treasurer as having contributed by pew rent, by pledge, by subscription or otherwise to the funds to meet the expenses or other obligations of the Parish during the six months immediately previous to the Meeting, it being understood that the pledge or obligation for such contributions shall have been incurred prior to the said six months; and in addition declare their willingness to conform to the Doctrine, Discipline and Worship of the Church.

Our annual meetings rarely ever have any vote contentious enough to even keep track of which people present are eligible to vote and which aren't. Even Vestry elections are typically uncontested at my parish. The only time we had to pull out the records and actually hand out paper ballots to "voting members" (a term we invented so as to not alienate the occasional attendees who considered themselves members but really weren't) was for a vote regarding taking on a new mortgage. It was divided and required a fairly high threshold to pass. Of course, the canon quoted above made it rather tricky for us...what is "regular" attendance? We ended up choosing to be inclusive and set it at roughly three times a year -- although without having individual attendance records, the rector and wardens had to use our best judgment. If we remembered seeing them a few times, that was good enough for us.
 
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Paidiske

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Generally, the vote on membership would be a vote to receive the revised electoral roll. And then I'd probably make special mention of new members and invite the parish to welcome them with applause, kind of thing. It's not the parish voting on whether or not to accept someone personally (as if they might vote against someone).

We would typically revise our membership rolls annually, and that would include removing people who are no longer active members of the parish. There's a bit of discretion in deciding what that means, but you can be considered inactive if we haven't seen you for three months without a good reason, I think. Generally it'd take more than that, though, because we prefer to keep people connected if we can.

This is how our parish governance act sets out such matters:

Parish Electoral Roll
17. The parish electoral roll shall be maintained by the secretary of the parish council for the purposes of enrolment by parishioners for voting at parish meetings.
18. The parish electoral roll shall -
18.1. contain the name and address of each eligible parishioner who signs a declaration in the form in Schedule 1 to this Act; and
18.2. be in such form as Bishop in Council may determine.
19. A person is an eligible parishioner if they -
19.1. are not less than eighteen years (18) old;
19.2. have been baptised;
19.3. are a communicant member of the Anglican Church;
19.4. are not on the electoral roll of another Anglican parish; and
19.5. are a regular worshipper in the parish.
20. The parish electoral roll shall be revised at least every three years by the secretary of parish council and the incumbent.
21. The parish secretary shall, upon receipt of a request from a parishioner to remove their name from the parish electoral roll, comply with that request.
22. A parishioner who is an eligible parishioner and who has signed the declaration, shall be eligible: 22.1. to vote at the annual meeting and any other parish meeting; and
22.2. subject to this Act, to be elected as a churchwarden, parish councillor or any other parish or diocesan officer.
 
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Deegie

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Thanks -- it's so interesting how things are done elsewhere. Removing parishioners from the membership rolls is always a tricky thing. Our parish statistics (limited to number of members and dollar amount of giving) are posted publicly on the national TEC website for everyone to see. No one wants to be the one who decides to prune the list and be responsible for a precipitous drop on the graph!
 
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The Liturgist

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Thanks -- it's so interesting how things are done elsewhere. Removing parishioners from the membership rolls is always a tricky thing. Our parish statistics (limited to number of members and dollar amount of giving) are posted publicly on the national TEC website for everyone to see. No one wants to be the one who decides to prune the list and be responsible for a precipitous drop on the graph!

That sort of pruning can get parishes closed, so I can’t blame people for not doing it. The Church of England probably has the most accurate data because of historical legal obligations that attach to C of E vestries, and I would imagine this applies to the other state churches in Europe, such as the Church of Scotland and the Lutheran churches. However, in Germany and Scandinavia, a curious phenomenon exists where fairly large numbers of people pay the church tax without attending or even believing, which is nice of them; I don’t understand it, and church tax revenues are declining, but there is still this noticeable gap between attendance and revenue.
 
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Paidiske

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Thanks -- it's so interesting how things are done elsewhere. Removing parishioners from the membership rolls is always a tricky thing. Our parish statistics (limited to number of members and dollar amount of giving) are posted publicly on the national TEC website for everyone to see. No one wants to be the one who decides to prune the list and be responsible for a precipitous drop on the graph!

Our stats are published as well. I tend to be a fairly ruthless pruner, though, and it's because I find that most parishes, to some degree, live in denial of their reality. Membership numbers falsely inflated by not removing people who have well and truly left, plays into that denial, and into a culture that's complacent about having to attract and welcome new people.
 
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The Liturgist

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Our stats are published as well. I tend to be a fairly ruthless pruner, though, and it's because I find that most parishes, to some degree, live in denial of their reality. Membership numbers falsely inflated by not removing people who have well and truly left, plays into that denial, and into a culture that's complacent about having to attract and welcome new people.

Whereas I can’t blame people who don’t prune, the approach you take is better.

Failure to prune did lead to one episode of pastoral abuse, of a friend of mine who converted to the Russian Orthodox Church is still on the parish register of a mainline US denomination (non-Anglican) and when I encountered the pastor of that parish he, despite her having informed the parish and himself that she was leaving, complained bitterly to me that she no longer did anything for the parish (she had been the organist until they removed their organ and switched to rock music; what was she supposed to do, play the electric guitar or other rock instruments she has no formal training on for a church she was no longer a member of, but had become actively opposed to?)

This was wrong on so many levels, because it violated her privacy, and it amounted to gossip about and backbiting of another person by a cleric, which is prohibited by many ancient canon laws which unfortunately it seems no one ever follows any more (but Anglican churches excel at not abusing people, and this was not an Anglican church).

I think I am going to post in General Theology all of the ancient canons that relate to the behavior of presbyters, bishops, deacons, and others in Holy Orders, because it would be interesting to compare them to the canons and policies of churches like the Anglican churches which do not have issues with abuse at the parish level, certainly none that I have heard of (the only complaints one ever hears is about the bishops, and regardless of where the particular Anglican church is in terms of controversial issues, bishops can’t make everyone happy, and I know of only two, possibly three Anglican bishops who may have engaged in misconduct in the entire world, in the entire history of the church, although the third case could have involved missionaries, and in that case and one of the others, the evidence is tenuous, and in the other case, the bishop did confess and resign. This is an extremely good record, I think.
 
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mark46

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Hi there,
so this may be a rather long winded one but I'm returning to religion/new to religion. I was raised with a diluted form of anglicanism essentially. So I've been wanting to get back into the church however the more I read, the more I feel the C of E itself has been diluted and is coming away from the scriptures.

I've been reading about high-church anglicanism and anglo-catholicism, and catholicism itself. I understand the whole via media approach kept alot of the old traditions and movements such as the oxford movement has had influences; but for there to still be distinct differences between two churches and multiple groups within the anglican church.

If people would kindly offer some insight and explain some of the key differences that would be fantastic.

Over the last decade or so, our family has been a member of an Anglican church that is almost 50% former Roman Catholics. We are part of ACNA, a US Anglican church. On occasion, I also attend the local Roman Catholic Church. The will always consider me a member. I would note that my Anglican church is not Anglo-Catholic.

To understand a bit more about Anglicanism, I recommend the following book which I found very readable and informative.

The Anglican Way: A Guidebook by McKenzie, Thomas (2014) Paperback: AmazonSmile: Books
 
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mark46

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Our stats are published as well. I tend to be a fairly ruthless pruner, though, and it's because I find that most parishes, to some degree, live in denial of their reality. Membership numbers falsely inflated by not removing people who have well and truly left, plays into that denial, and into a culture that's complacent about having to attract and welcome new people.

Hmm. Our very large (for Anglicans) church has never had a membership role. Our pastor has never wanted such. Of course, we have mailing lists and email lists. Our church is open to all. Communion is open to all baptized Christians. We find no need to have a special class called "members".
 
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Paidiske

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Hmm. Our very large (for Anglicans) church has never had a membership role... We find no need to have a special class called "members".

Does your governance not involve things like an annual meeting and lay office bearers (wardens, parish council members, and the like)? What determines eligibility to vote and stand for office in your parish?
 
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mark46

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Does your governance not involve things like an annual meeting and lay office bearers (wardens, parish council members, and the like)? What determines eligibility to vote and stand for office in your parish?

I apologize. I checked. There is membership.
===========
When we arrived over 12 years ago, my memory is that we were told that there was no formal membership then. I'm sure that we were not yet a member when I took leadership training. I decided not to become a formal part of leadership (mainly because of the fight with TEC).

Yes, we definitely have votes to approve those who step forward to be wardens and delegates to the diocesan convention.

Perhaps, my memory is bad. Perhaps, we have changed as part of becoming part of ACNA. As an aside, our diocese has never recognized any authority of TEC over us. Our diocese is older than the TEC.

I suspect that it is a memory issue since we have always had an annual diocesan convention, and we are the largest or 2nd largest member.
 
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Sean611

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Hi there,
so this may be a rather long winded one but I'm returning to religion/new to religion. I was raised with a diluted form of anglicanism essentially. So I've been wanting to get back into the church however the more I read, the more I feel the C of E itself has been diluted and is coming away from the scriptures.

I've been reading about high-church anglicanism and anglo-catholicism, and catholicism itself. I understand the whole via media approach kept alot of the old traditions and movements such as the oxford movement has had influences; but for there to still be distinct differences between two churches and multiple groups within the anglican church.

If people would kindly offer some insight and explain some of the key differences that would be fantastic.

You could write a multi-volume book series and still not explain all of the nuances which would be required to answer your question. LOL! :)

I think the simplest way to explain this issue would be to explain why some Anglicans embrace different strands of Anglicanism (this will still fall short of the mark though). The English Reformation was different that the continental reformation (think Luther and Calvin). Henry VIII essentially established cesaro-papalism with himself as the head of the church in England, rather than the pope. Other than this large exception, the church in England was still pretty much Roman Catholic in worship and theology. After the death of Henry VIII, the protestant Edward VI ascended the throne and he was raised protestant, so the church took a more protestant direction (Reformed). With Edward's death (he died young), Mary I (Henry's daughter with Queen Catherine) became queen and she restored Catholicism. After Mary's death, Elizabeth I ascended to the throne of England (Henry's daughter with Anne Boleyn). As you can probably imagine, the church was firmly split between factions of Catholics, Calvinists, and Lutherans.

The Elizabethan Settlement and the 39 Articles of Religion attempted to quell the religious descension which had been running rampant in England since Henry VIII threw off the papal chains. In my opinion, the settlement was also an attempt to harmonize Lutheran, Calvinist, and Catholic theology in a way in which no church "camp" really got everything they wanted. From what I understand of the settlement, though not perfect, was largely successful. Therefore, this is why the Articles tend to be a bit vague when compared to other confessional statements of faith.

In the 17th century, the Caroline Divines attempted to assert the Church of England was not a new church at all, but simply a reformed Catholicism (do not read "reformed" here in a strictly Calvinist sense) that had existed in England prior to papal dominion and the subsequent theological errors of Rome. This is where the term via media comes from, a church that avoided the extremes and errors of both Roman Catholicism and continental Protestantism. (think "middle way") However, in the 17th century the Puritan faction attempted to get rid of the prayer book, bishops, and other aspects of Anglicanism which were associated as being "Romish" after the beheading of King Charles I. Skip forward to the 19th century and you have the Oxford Movement (Tractarian) which sought, within the Church of England (and elsewhere), to achieve Catholic renewal in terms of worship and theology. It is important to note that most of these camps believe themselves to be truly Anglican and that their expression of Anglicanism keeps with the catholic tradition which existed in England prior to papal and Latin Catholic domination.

Therefore, you have many Anglicans who tend to lean toward one tradition or the other as being expressive of true English (Celtic) Christianity. This is a totally incomplete description of English Christian history, but hopefully this helps with some of the basic questions you asked. :)

I should also note, there are also evangelical, traditionalist, charismatic, and progressive camps within Anglicanism as well. I believe the lack of a super-firm (and authoritative, depending on your jurisdiction) confessional statement of Anglicanism is probably why there are so many different strains and "camps" within Anglicanism.
 
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Arcangl86

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Our stats are published as well. I tend to be a fairly ruthless pruner, though, and it's because I find that most parishes, to some degree, live in denial of their reality. Membership numbers falsely inflated by not removing people who have well and truly left, plays into that denial, and into a culture that's complacent about having to attract and welcome new people.
Not pruning an also cause issues if it goes on long enough with having quorum for parish meetings. If your ASA is 30% of your "official" membership and quaroum is 50%, then you will never get quorum.
 
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