American Teachers Resign Over Oddly Similar Circumstances...

[tall73]

Crt is predicated on the fact that those type of biases are inbuilt and unconscious. So we are not responsible for them. But we need to be aware of them.

You can't know what you are unaware of. So you can know that they exist, but not which ones drive you or what to do about them.

And to the point I addressed earlier, taking steps to make the process eliminate bias is best. I am not sure if you read Ana's article but this part addresses that:

However, Lai said there is a more effective way to change these behaviors; one that doesn't rely on changing people's implicit biases: ridding society of the features that cause people to act in a biased way.

For example, reducing subjectivity makes it more difficult for a person's biases to affect decision-making. Instead of relying on a "gut feeling" for a hiring decision, for example, lay out the requirements first, and stick to them.

Trying to act on the knowledge you have biases, but not knowing which ones is hopeless. But if you review processes in a way that remove some of the bias potential that holds promise.

 

[Ana the Ist]

No, I am willing to look at the evidence they present.

Unless I present it.

I have already informed Ana The 1st I will no longer respond to them.

Which really makes these posts look silly. You're asking for evidence, I'm giving you examples of "Deep Equity's" own training.

Where? I followed all of the links and found none that linked to materials, only claims from the teacher. If these curriculum are so over the top as claimed why are they so hard to publish? The problem I keep seeing is that if the curriculum is as bad as is being claimed, no one would teach it. No one on the left wants to teach "All white people are bad" so if it was really teaching that there would be a huge outcry. Yet all we see are the same people who think that science is a vast left wing conspiracy making outlandish claims.

This stuff is all over the internet, you need only look.

What I find remarkable is that you believe teachers are quitting their jobs over a "conspiracy theory" that isn't really happening. Why? Do you think someone paid them to quit and then make up similar stories?

You're being manipulated by the media and I hate to say it seems justifiable when they make it look so easy.

 

[Bradskii]

You can't know what you are unaware of. So you can know that they exist, but not which ones drive you or what to do about them.

And to the point I addressed earlier, taking steps to make the process eliminate bias is best. I am not sure if you read Ana's article but this part addresses that:

However, Lai said there is a more effective way to change these behaviors; one that doesn't rely on changing people's implicit biases: ridding society of the features that cause people to act in a biased way.

For example, reducing subjectivity makes it more difficult for a person's biases to affect decision-making. Instead of relying on a "gut feeling" for a hiring decision, for example, lay out the requirements first, and stick to them.

Trying to act on the knowledge you have biases, but not knowing which ones is hopeless. But if you review processes in a way that remove some of the bias potential that holds promise.

Completely and totally agree 100%. Unfortunately, there are some posting in this thread that are incapable of reaching that same conclusion. They have it in their heads that this is some left wing, Marxist, pseudo-socialist, tree-hugging, vote capturing conspiracy. It's impossible to get past the political grandstanding to have a reasonable discussion.

 

[tall73]

Completely and totally agree 100%. Unfortunately, there are some posting in this thread that are incapable of reaching that same conclusion. They have it in their heads that this is some left wing, Marxist, pseudo-socialist, tree-hugging, vote capturing conspiracy. It's impossible to get past the political grandstanding to have a reasonable discussion.

I have not seen that in your conversation with Ana. He has not disputed bias. He has said if you can't know it, and it has limited ties to behavior, then why spend this much time teaching people about it, especially children?

Are children in a position to set up bias limiting systems in society? What good is it doing to tell small children to watch for unconscious bias? It will be years before that would do them any good.

You can teach them all people are valuable and to be respected. But instead time is spent to draw racial lines.

I think the wrongs of the past were very much about overt racism. And the more you press the race issue upon small children the more you are likely to have some respond in a way to bring back overt support your team type attitudes.

If you can't know your unconscious bias then forget it and just focus on acting fairly, and society can as well. You can discuss in the past when fairness was not used. And instead of focusing on how everyone is a hopeless racist point out that people have made progress fighting racism. Then they have something to strive for, which would be systems that promote fairness.

If the problem is the system, then start thinking of ways to remove value judgments from the system, and stop talking to little kids about it.

 

[rjs330]

I'm keeping my explanations as simple as possible. I'm pretty sure that you can follow them. Yet you still act as if they are beyond you.

You're not interested in a discussion. I normally say 'thanks for your input' at this point. But as you haven't actually made any then I think I'll forgo that.

 

[rjs330]

No, I am willing to look at the evidence they present. The issue is that when people first started hollering about CRT I went and looked at what it was. What I found bore no resemblance to the claims being made. Since these are the same people who misrepresented mainstream science, the media, and what I believe it means the bar for evidence has to b pretty high as they are already in the hole concerning credibility.



I have already informed Ana The 1st I will no longer respond to them.



Where? I followed all of the links and found none that linked to materials, only claims from the teacher. If these curriculum are so over the top as claimed why are they so hard to publish? The problem I keep seeing is that if the curriculum is as bad as is being claimed, no one would teach it. No one on the left wants to teach "All white people are bad" so if it was really teaching that there would be a huge outcry. Yet all we see are the same people who think that science is a vast left wing conspiracy making outlandish claims.

That's where you are wrong. There are plenty of people.wanting to teach that. Because they believe it. Are you aware of the mom in NY who is being sued for thousands of dollars for trying to get the curriculum. They don't just hand out the curriculum cause of what it teaches. And the lady in the video showed it. As did Anna.

But you are sweeping it aside cause you don't really want to deal with it. Or believe it.

 

[rjs330]

Holy Toledo. This is not credible. The problem is not the confirmation bias. I assumed that that would have been accepted as a given from the outset. But I've had to explain it in about the 4 or 5 last posts. The problems are caused by unconscious bias.

How many more times does this have to be said? Well, don't bother thinking about it. I'll tell you. Zero.

That's because you ASSUME children have racial bias that automatically causes racism. CRT teaches kids they are racist. And as we have seen it's never geared towards kids of of other colors. It's always aimed at the white kids.

Bias isn't preference. I prefer Heinz ketchup. So? Is it subconscious?

But you aren't teaching kids just about bias. You are teaching them they have RACIAL bias, without even know if they do or not. And teaching white kids they are subconsciously racist.

It's indoctrination.

 

[rjs330]

Completely and totally agree 100%. Unfortunately, there are some posting in this thread that are incapable of reaching that same conclusion. They have it in their heads that this is some left wing, Marxist, pseudo-socialist, tree-hugging, vote capturing conspiracy. It's impossible to get past the political grandstanding to have a reasonable discussion.

Let's see, it is left wing, it is Marxist so it has socialist leanings. Cause you don't see those in the right teaching it.

 

[Ana the Ist]

I have not seen that in your conversation with Ana. He has not disputed bias. He has said if you can't know it, and it has limited ties to behavior, then why spend this much time teaching people about it, especially children?

Are children in a position to set up bias limiting systems in society? What good is it doing to tell small children to watch for unconscious bias? It will be years before that would do them any good.

You can teach them all people are valuable and to be respected. But instead time is spent to draw racial lines.

I think the wrongs of the past were very much about overt racism. And the more you press the race issue upon small children the more you are likely to have some respond in a way to bring back overt support your team type attitudes.

If you can't know your unconscious bias then forget it and just focus on acting fairly, and society can as well. You can discuss in the past when fairness was not used. And instead of focusing on how everyone is a hopeless racist point out that people have made progress fighting racism. Then they have something to strive for, which would be systems that promote fairness.

If the problem is the system, then start thinking of ways to remove value judgments from the system, and stop talking to little kids about it.

I think there's a bit of an issue in the idea of removing bias from the system.

The example the article gives about a hiring manager listing traits and qualifications, and then sticking to them, is a good way to do this.

The problem arises when one assumes that because a disparity exists....there must be bias. That ends up with schools like Stuyvesant removing tests for getting accepted into the school....even if there's nothing biased about the tests. It results in schools removing AP courses, even if there's nothing biased about getting into the courses. It results in the ridiculous outline of California's educational reform for mathematics....where they stop grading students on mathematics.

That sort of stuff doesn't help anyone....it's just lowering the bar until anyone capable of crawling can get over it. It may result in equity....but it's the sort of equity that doesn't help anyone.

 

[Ana the Ist]

That's because you ASSUME children have racial bias that automatically causes racism. CRT teaches kids they are racist. And as we have seen it's never geared towards kids of of other colors. It's always aimed at the white kids.

Bias isn't preference. I prefer Heinz ketchup. So? Is it subconscious?

But you aren't teaching kids just about bias. You are teaching them they have RACIAL bias, without even know if they do or not. And teaching white kids they are subconsciously racist.

It's indoctrination.

Even the people who try to whine about "wanting to teach real history" basically give themselves away when they start talking about specifics. I read an article where a supposed high school student was complaining that they had to learn about native Americans from a "white perspective"....as if there was a bunch of native American historians from the pre-colonial era that we've been ignoring all this time.

They want the number of black people lynched to be taught, but not the number of white people lynched, why lynching stopped, or even other cross racial crimes like....the number of white women and children abducted and raped by native Americans.

There's no talk of wanting to teach about the Buffalo soldiers, black slave owners, their racist beliefs and views....or the roles they played in killing native Americans. It's not really a nuanced or more complete version of history they want taught....just some more talk of the awful things white people did in the past.

 

[Belk]

That's where you are wrong. There are plenty of people.wanting to teach that. Because they believe it.

Whom? Quote them.

Are you aware of the mom in NY who is being sued for thousands of dollars for trying to get the curriculum.

No. I am not aware. Feel free to provide a link

They don't just hand out the curriculum cause of what it teaches. And the lady in the video showed it. As did Anna.

Are these public schools? Are the curriculum not public domain?

But you are sweeping it aside cause you don't really want to deal with it. Or believe it.

No, I'm sweeping it aside because there is no evidence for it. Just the same screams from the constantly disaffected.

 

[Bradskii]

I have not seen that in your conversation with Ana. He has not disputed bias. He has said if you can't know it, and it has limited ties to behavior, then why spend this much time teaching people about it, especially children?

Are children in a position to set up bias limiting systems in society? What good is it doing to tell small children to watch for unconscious bias? It will be years before that would do them any go.

The point is that we need to teach children that we all have these inbuilt bias. We need to explain to them that we can deal with the kkk member or the white supremicst group - that's the easy part. What's difficult is to understand how everyday bias can lead to wide ranging problems. It's not difficult to give examples.

Teaching children about unconscious bias is a way to explain to them that they are not to blame for any problems that we have. But knowing about it will see them better prepared to address those problems.

 

[rjs330]

Even the people who try to whine about "wanting to teach real history" basically give themselves away when they start talking about specifics. I read an article where a supposed high school student was complaining that they had to learn about native Americans from a "white perspective"....as if there was a bunch of native American historians from the pre-colonial era that we've been ignoring all this time.

They want the number of black people lynched to be taught, but not the number of white people lynched, why lynching stopped, or even other cross racial crimes like....the number of white women and children abducted and raped by native Americans.

There's no talk of wanting to teach about the Buffalo soldiers, black slave owners, their racist beliefs and views....or the roles they played in killing native Americans. It's not really a nuanced or more complete version of history they want taught....just some more talk of the awful things white people did in the past.

Some really good points. Human kind has always had plenty of moments of bad acts of one towards another. No race or tribe or group has remained exempt from them. I would also think none have been worse than others. Whites are no worse than Asians and blacks are no better than native Americans.

We've also had times of good, where we recognized that wrong was done and we corrected it.

Yes they want " real history" as if we have to share every single time white people did something bad otherwise it's not real history while ignoring everything else.

 

[rjs330]

Whom? Quote them.



No. I am not aware. Feel free to provide a link



Are these public schools? Are the curriculum not public domain?



No, I'm sweeping it aside because there is no evidence for it. Just the same screams from the constantly disaffected.

Is Critical Race Theory Taught in K-12 Schools? The NEA Says Yes, and That It Should Be.

Critical Race Training in Education

Teachers’ Union Sues Mother to Block Release of CRT Records

SHOCKING: Fifth grade students recite critical race theory sponsored by Pizza Hut

Penn High School's Critical Race Theory Curriculum, Lesson 1: Microaggressions | REAL News Michiana

Penn High School's Critical Race Theory Curriculum, Lesson 2: The Pyramid of White Supremacy | REAL News Michiana

Concord School Refuses to Give Parent Curriculum | REAL News Michiana

White House Backs Teachers Unions, CRT Curricula | RealClearPolitics!


Despite repeated requests from parents and concerned citizens, the school district, in violation of both state and federal law, has refused to disclose the extent of its relationship with Pacific Education Group—a radical organization pushing Critical Race Theory on our children—or the curriculum itself.

Federal law mandates that parents have the right to access and review curriculum being taught to their children. The right of parents in this regard is sacrosanct. AFL is proud to defend parents and children against CRT indoctrination and extreme-left school boards who refuse to comply with the law.

AFL President Stephen Miller issued the following statement:

AFL is committed to defeating the illegal equity agenda and the poisonous ideology driving it: Critical Race Theory. In that mission, AFL is standing up for parents who are trying to save their children from racist CRT indoctrination.

One such group of Pennsylvania parents is courageously fighting back. The Tredyffrin-Easttown School District has publicly admitted to applying the odious CRT framework on its captive students. These parents have demanded to see the lesson plans and teaching materials being used in the classroom, weaponized against their own children—but the school, in defiance of both state and federal law, has refused to comply. In effect, it’s a cover-up. AFL has therefore formally filed a request, pursuant to Pennsylvania’s open records law, to obtain the records. If the school rejects the request in further violation of law, then we will take them to court and pry loose these records for all parents and all citizens to see. AFL will use every lawful remedy at our disposal to protect our children from Critical Race Theory. And we will proudly support the patriotic moms and dads stepping up as parent warriors to protect America’s kids from this racist indoctrination.

Read the full records request here.

Why is WH backing something that doesn't exist?

Again Ana provided evidence as well. Ignore away.

 

[rjs330]

The point is that we need to teach children that we all have these inbuilt bias. We need to explain to them that we can deal with the kkk member or the white supremicst group - that's the easy part. What's difficult is to understand how everyday bias can lead to wide ranging problems. It's not difficult to give examples.

Teaching children about unconscious bias is a way to explain to them that they are not to blame for any problems that we have. But knowing about it will see them better prepared to address those problems.

What problems? You are assuming again these kids have subconscious racial problems. Indoctrination! Plain and simple.

 

[tall73]

The point is that we need to teach children that we all have these inbuilt bias. We need to explain to them that we can deal with the kkk member or the white supremicst group - that's the easy part. What's difficult is to understand how everyday bias can lead to wide ranging problems. It's not difficult to give examples.

Teaching children about unconscious bias is a way to explain to them that they are not to blame for any problems that we have. But knowing about it will see them better prepared to address those problems.

Kids have enough to figure out without telling them they have dangerous bias they can't detect, and that they can't fix, and that they are a more difficult problem than the overt racist.

All of your understanding of your unconscious bias hasn't allowed you to manage your own racist thoughts, per your testimony, so why would you put that on a kid?

The adults around them are responsible for working on the system. And even with adults the realization of unconscious bias (if you think it translates to behavior) is just a reminder that we have to make more objective systems that limit the role of bias-prone decision making, not sit around wondering what our sub-conscious is doing to ruin people around us.

 

[Belk]

Is Critical Race Theory Taught in K-12 Schools? The NEA Says Yes, and That It Should Be.

I read Reason regularly. While I don't always agree they are at least approachable. What of this article would you like to discuss?

Perhaps this piece?

Progressives are essentially correct that the definition of CRT is being tortured to match conservative grievances

Critical Race Training in Education

Teachers’ Union Sues Mother to Block Release of CRT Records

SHOCKING: Fifth grade students recite critical race theory sponsored by Pizza Hut

Penn High School's Critical Race Theory Curriculum, Lesson 1: Microaggressions | REAL News Michiana

Penn High School's Critical Race Theory Curriculum, Lesson 2: The Pyramid of White Supremacy | REAL News Michiana

Concord School Refuses to Give Parent Curriculum | REAL News Michiana

White House Backs Teachers Unions, CRT Curricula | RealClearPolitics!

Brietbart and the like. Certain to be well balanced. What specific evidence presented here should we address?

Despite repeated requests from parents and concerned citizens, the school district, in violation of both state and federal law, has refused to disclose the extent of its relationship with Pacific Education Group—a radical organization pushing Critical Race Theory on our children—or the curriculum itself.

Federal law mandates that parents have the right to access and review curriculum being taught to their children. The right of parents in this regard is sacrosanct. AFL is proud to defend parents and children against CRT indoctrination and extreme-left school boards who refuse to comply with the law.

AFL President Stephen Miller issued the following statement:

AFL is committed to defeating the illegal equity agenda and the poisonous ideology driving it: Critical Race Theory. In that mission, AFL is standing up for parents who are trying to save their children from racist CRT indoctrination.

One such group of Pennsylvania parents is courageously fighting back. The Tredyffrin-Easttown School District has publicly admitted to applying the odious CRT framework on its captive students. These parents have demanded to see the lesson plans and teaching materials being used in the classroom, weaponized against their own children—but the school, in defiance of both state and federal law, has refused to comply. In effect, it’s a cover-up. AFL has therefore formally filed a request, pursuant to Pennsylvania’s open records law, to obtain the records. If the school rejects the request in further violation of law, then we will take them to court and pry loose these records for all parents and all citizens to see. AFL will use every lawful remedy at our disposal to protect our children from Critical Race Theory. And we will proudly support the patriotic moms and dads stepping up as parent warriors to protect America’s kids from this racist indoctrination.

Read the full records request here.

Why is WH backing something that doesn't exist?

Hey look, more claims.

Again Ana provided evidence as well.

I will not respond to that individual. Do you need it in semaphore? Smoke signals?

Ignore away.

 

[variant]

What problems? You are assuming again these kids have subconscious racial problems. Indoctrination! Plain and simple.

We wouldn't teach such things without good evidence that they were true.

See here for example:
Bias Starts as Early as Preschool, but Can Be Unlearned

Such ideas are not indoctrination, they are observed and known ideas from the world.

 

[variant]

Kids have enough to figure out without telling them they have dangerous bias they can't detect, and that they can't fix, and that they are a more difficult problem than the overt racist.

The idea is to teach people about such biases so they can be corrected.

 

[tall73]

The idea is to teach people about such biases so they can be corrected.

So far in this thread there has been a lot of discussion about whether they can be corrected. Unconscious bias is just that--unconscious. I suggested that people who over time have seen their biases revealed can make improvements in regards to their thinking and action. And those who spend time reflecting can over the years make great progress in this regard.

This was particularly in connection to the discussion of unbidden thoughts that surface and can then be analyzed. I am not sure if you have read all of that discussion.

Some here took issue with Ana that he does not claim to have unbidden racist thoughts surface. Yet, if you really can improve in these areas, rigorously challenge your preconceptions, etc. and if, as he noted, he had an upbringing that early on set him on a good course in this regard, why couldn't he be at the point where he is not having racist thoughts pop into his head? Instead of accepting his statement they insisted he was defensive.

As to subconscious bias, by their nature you can never know all the decisions being made by your sub-conscious. Studies can reveal particular ones for particular people. But even if I have participated in bias studies of a few sorts, there still are all kinds of blind spots I may have as to my subconscious.

That is why I stressed that the best course we can take is to whenever possible design systems that weed out potential for bias. I gave the examples, as discussed from other studies and threads, regrading anonymizing job applications, or blind auditions for musical groups ,etc. as examples that eliminate the possibility of bias based on groups or appearance. These types of systemic changes are what you would need, when possible, to weed out unconscious bias in a meaningful way.

Now in regards to children, they are not ready to analyze systems for society. You can teach them each person has value, should be treated fairly, etc. But they are not ready to think through the notion of a sub-conscious that is making judgments behind the scene that are not something they can directly analyze, and that could be harming others without them even realizing. They don't have the ability to manage that.

If you look at the article you posted most of the ways they were to learn about bias were dealing with manifestations of bias through behavior. We have always needed to teach kids about treating people fairly, that everyone has value, dispelling stereotypes, reviewing behavior, etc.

Teaching kids that their sub-conscious will betray them is not a helpful lesson at that age. They have not even learned to regulate the thinking and behavior they are aware of.