American Teachers Resign Over Oddly Similar Circumstances...

Belk

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The link really is a whole lot of nothing.

Hmm...


But I'm not surprised you can't see it.

An English teacher has resigned from a top New Jersey prep school that is using critical race theory to create a “hostile culture of conformity and fear” — causing white and male students to believe they are “oppressors,” she said.

Yet for some reason none of that shows up in the training. You are repeating claims from disgruntled employees. If their claims are true where is this information in the training?
 
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Ana the Ist

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If being obtuse was an Olypic sport, you'd win gold every time.

Uh huh.

This is just me. But if I were to discuss crt with some young people I would begin by explaining that everyone has a subconscious that affects a lot of what we do. I'd use umpteen examples of how this works in practice. And as we'd be relating this to racism and I'd ask for a show of hands as to who considered themselves racist. No hands would go up.

This is not the question I asked.

Then I'd show them results of psychological tests and experiments that would indicate that we all have a tendency to prefer our own 'group' whether it was their classmates versus another class or their school over another, or their team over another or their country etc. (I wouldn't ask any of them to do these tests). And I'd ask if this tendency towards one's group might include ethnic background. I'd expect to see a reasonable amount of agreement.

We don't all prefer our own groups.

For those that didn't agree, I'd show them more experiments and tests that show that this is indeed the case. And then I'd ask if this subconscious bias might result in one group being disadvantaged over another. And I'd ask for examples. I'd expect quite a few.

Not the question I asked.

Then I'd suggest that any disadvantage one group was under was not, therefore, based on rational thought (although I'd ask for examples of overt racism and expect a lot of examples) but subconscious bias. So that we could not be individually blamed for something that was not under our direct control. But...if it does lead to problems then I'd ask if anyone had any solutions to combat them.

Not the question I asked.

I said...

Well if you don't know which ones (unconscious biases) I have....how are you going to point them out?
 
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rjs330

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And as we'd be relating this to racism and I'd ask for a show of hands as to who considered themselves racist. No hands would go up.

Then I'd show them results of psychological tests and experiments that would indicate that we all have a tendency to prefer our own 'group' whether it was their classmates versus another class or their school over another, or their team over another or their country etc. (I wouldn't ask any of them to do these tests). And I'd ask if this tendency towards one's group might include ethnic background. I'd expect to see a reasonable amount of agreement.

And does any of that mean that any of those students are racist? Cause you applied it and asked if any of them are racist. Now you go in to try and show how they are, but don't even know it.

How do you know any of them are?

This is nothing short of indoctrination.
 
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rjs330

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An English teacher has resigned from a top New Jersey prep school that is using critical race theory to create a “hostile culture of conformity and fear” — causing white and male students to believe they are “oppressors,” she said.

Yet for some reason none of that shows up in the training. You are repeating claims from disgruntled employees. If their claims are true where is this information in the training?

I see so you are utterly dismissing the claims? Once again not surprised. As Ana has provided curriculum, I am assuming you have dismissed that as well? Post 53

And this has some of the materials.in it as well

Teacher at posh NJ prep school quits over critical race theory
 
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Bradskii

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Uh huh.

Well if you don't know which ones (unconscious biases) I have....how are you going to point them out?

As I said, if I were in a group of schoolkids discussing crt then I would explain (as I did above) that we all have unconscious bias. I would obviously show experiments where this is shown beyond any reasonable doubt. But, again as I said above, I would not ask them to do any tests themselves. This isn't an exercise to determine 'who is the most racist guy in the class'. It's an exercise to show that we all have these biases and that they affect us in ways that we are not consciously aware. Obviously.

So if anyone explaining crt to schoolkids attempted to suggest that the white kids were racist and the black kids were not and the white kids were in some way responsible for the disadvantages that black society suffer then they'd only be exhibiting less of an understanding of crt than you seem to have have.
 
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Bradskii

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And does any of that mean that any of those students are racist? Cause you applied it and asked if any of them are racist. Now you go in to try and show how they are, but don't even know it.

How do you know any of them are?

This is nothing short of indoctrination.
I'm keeping my explanations as simple as possible. I'm pretty sure that you can follow them. Yet you still act as if they are beyond you.

You're not interested in a discussion. I normally say 'thanks for your input' at this point. But as you haven't actually made any then I think I'll forgo that.
 
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Ana the Ist

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As I said, if I were in a group of schoolkids discussing crt then I would explain (as I did above) that we all have unconscious bias. I would obviously show experiments where this is shown beyond any reasonable doubt. But, again as I said above, I would not ask them to do any tests themselves. This isn't an exercise to determine 'who is the most racist guy in the class'. It's an exercise to show that we all have these biases and that they affect us in ways that we are not consciously aware. Obviously.

I didn't ask how you would explain blah blah blah to a classroom.

There's hundreds, maybe thousands, maybe countless unconscious biases.

How do you know what one a person has?
 
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Bradskii

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I didn't ask how you would explain blah blah blah to a classroom.

There's hundreds, maybe thousands, maybe countless unconscious biases.

How do you know what one a person has?

Of those many thousands, the ones that determine your choice of partner or style of whisky or sock colour don't really affect anyone else. The ones that actually do determine how you treat people obviously do.

Crt is predicated on the fact that those type of biases are inbuilt and unconscious. So we are not responsible for them. But we need to be aware of them.
 
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Ana the Ist

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Of those many thousands, the ones that determine your choice of partner or style of whisky or sock colour don't really affect anyone else. The ones that actually do determine how you treat people obviously do.

Not true....unconscious biases like confirmation bias affect all sorts of decisions, including how you interact with people.

Not to mention, being aware of something like confirmation bias does almost nothing to reduce it. If I reminded you every day about it, you might be able to mitigate it a little...but to eliminate it completely is basically impossible outside of a scientific methodology.

There's no long term evidence that we can change unconscious biases in the long term. There's a literal pile of research showing we can't.

In fact, there's no real strong correlation between unconscious biases and behavior.

Change the bias, change the behavior? Maybe not

Change the bias, changes in the behavior will follow. It seems logical enough.

If true, reducing implicit bias could be put to practical use for anything from ending discrimination (removing a bias in favor of white males) to losing weight (dialing down a cookie bias).

In a meta-analysis of research papers published on the subject of implicit bias, however, Lai found that the evidence does not show this kind of causal relationship.

The evidence doesn't support your beliefs.

Crt is predicated on the fact that those type of biases are inbuilt and unconscious. So we are not responsible for them. But we need to be aware of them.

I'd ask if you were just making up what you believe CRT is about....but it's rather obvious you are.

There's no difference in the "analysis" of CRT...and the beliefs of someone who is just racist against whites. There's literally thousands of research on social issues in the US and they all ultimately blame white people. They have to...or they aren't CRT. CRT blatantly rejects the idea of race nuetrality....so the only one teaching CRT wrong would be you.
 
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Bradskii

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Not true....unconscious biases like confirmation bias affect all sorts of decisions, including how you interact with people.

Which is exactly what I said: 'The ones that actually do determine how you treat people obviously do.'

Not to mention, being aware of something like confirmation bias does almost nothing to reduce it.

Why aren't you responding to what I write? I have constantly said that confirmation bias causes problems and...'if it does lead to problems then I'd ask if anyone had any solutions to combat them'. We need to tackle the problems that bias causes.

You don't seem to be making any effort at all to read what I post. I have to repeat everything I say and reconfirm that which I've written and even quote myself to try and get any points across.
 
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Ana the Ist

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Which is exactly what I said: 'The ones that actually do determine how you treat people obviously do.'

Which is why I gave you a hypothetical question....I included things like skin color, hair color, eye color, height, physical fitness, tone of voice , accent, etc.

These are all things that can have unconscious biases associated with them. It's also part of why the way some people use the term "white privilege" as if it's the one answer to every situation is wrong.

For example...

Standing tall pays off, study finds

The taller a person is, the more likely they get promoted on average....the more money they make on average.

The obvious question this leads to in relation to ideas about "white privilege" would be....

All other things being equal, who is more likely to be promoted? An above average height black man or a below average height white man? If someone has to decide who to promote and they're aware of both of these biases....which one of these is more important to consider, height or skin color? If the short white man isn't chosen....is he right to assume it's because he's short? If the tall black man isn't chosen....is he right to assume that it's because he's black?

Once you realize that all of these biases are a factor all of the time....any concentrated effort to address any one of them (at the exclusion of all others) is entirely self serving. Short people want to eliminate short bias, ugly people want to eliminate beauty bias, fat people want to eliminate fat bias, and so on and so on....

So the second question is why are we focusing almost entirely on racial biases? Why not focus on female bias since it has the largest group?

Women-are-wonderful effect - Wikipedia

The answer, I've found, is most easily discernible by looking at the narrative and who is selling it and who is buying it. The left wants votes. The left tells racial minorities that nothing they do is responsible for their lot in life....they're just victims of white people who are unconsciously racist against them (or who have created magically racist systems that don't even require individual racism). Why sell such a narrative? Well obviously it's appealing to hear that your failures are all someone else's fault....but also, because the laws are now fair....it's hard to come up with a valid reason why they should vote for Democratic Party Members (I would normally say Democrats but there's some weird rules about that word).

Why aren't you responding to what I write?

Because despite my extraordinary patience in answering your many many questions no matter how long it took....you deliberately avoid answering any of mine.

Instead of just saying "I have no way of knowing what unconscious biases a person is subject to....obviously no one does if even the person with the biases doesn't know".....you gave me some bizarre hypothetical scenario about how you would teach unconscious biases (in a very biased way) to a bunch of children and then you called it CRT.

I have constantly said that confirmation bias causes problems and...'if it does lead to problems then I'd ask if anyone had any solutions to combat them'. We need to tackle the problems that bias causes.

Of course it causes problems! In all of human history the only way to practically avoid confirmation bias is through the scientific method.

That's not a very practical method for every day interaction though....so confirmation bias is less a "problem" and more a "fact of life".

The simple way of saying this is "life isn't fair"....but it isn't fair for anyone, and that is fair in it's own way.
 
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Bradskii

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Of course it causes problems! In all of human history the only way to practically avoid confirmation bias is through the scientific method.

That's not a very practical method for every day interaction though....so confirmation bias is less a "problem" and more a "fact of life".

Ye gods...you are still massively missing the point. Confirmation bias as it affects race leads to problems. We need to accept that there are problems, understand why they occur and address them. To find solutions to the problems that unconscious bias causes.

Your position has gone from the risible position of refusing to acknowledge that the problems even exist (how many times did I have to ask the most basic of questions trying to get an agreement on simple proposals?) to saying that gee, there's nothing we can do about it. It's just a 'fact of life'. Via the extraordinary route of claiming that this is some vote winner.
 
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Ana the Ist

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Ye gods...you are still massively missing the point. Confirmation bias as it affects race leads to problems. We need to accept that there are problems, understand why they occur and address them. To find solutions to the problems that unconscious bias causes.

You're assuming there is a solution. Find me any long term solution to something like "confirmation bias" and then we can talk.

If your solution involves indoctrination of children, I'm inclined to think that the solution is a bigger injustice than the problem.

The same goes for solutions that involve racial discrimination. I can't, for example, require a company to hire someone of a certain race without denying that job or opportunity to every other race. That's not even racial discrimination we have to speculate about happening. Indoctrinating children to tell them how they should view people of other races just sets back any hope for racial equality. Telling them to view black people as incapable of achieving things of their own merit or ability or that they require special consideration is never going to lead children to seeing them as equals.


Your position has gone from the risible position of refusing to acknowledge that the problems even exist (how many times did I have to ask the most basic of questions trying to get an agreement on simple proposals?)

I gave you multiple opportunities to explain "the problem"....you kept saying that you would later.

You still haven't. I honestly don't know what you think the problem is.
 
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Bradskii

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You're assuming there is a solution. Find me any long term solution to something like "confirmation bias" and then we can talk.

Holy Toledo. This is not credible. The problem is not the confirmation bias. I assumed that that would have been accepted as a given from the outset. But I've had to explain it in about the 4 or 5 last posts. The problems are caused by unconscious bias.

How many more times does this have to be said? Well, don't bother thinking about it. I'll tell you. Zero.
 
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Belk

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I see so you are utterly dismissing the claims?

No, I am willing to look at the evidence they present. The issue is that when people first started hollering about CRT I went and looked at what it was. What I found bore no resemblance to the claims being made. Since these are the same people who misrepresented mainstream science, the media, and what I believe it means the bar for evidence has to b pretty high as they are already in the hole concerning credibility.

Once again not surprised. As Ana has provided curriculum, I am assuming you have dismissed that as well? Post 53

I have already informed Ana The 1st I will no longer respond to them.


Where? I followed all of the links and found none that linked to materials, only claims from the teacher. If these curriculum are so over the top as claimed why are they so hard to publish? The problem I keep seeing is that if the curriculum is as bad as is being claimed, no one would teach it. No one on the left wants to teach "All white people are bad" so if it was really teaching that there would be a huge outcry. Yet all we see are the same people who think that science is a vast left wing conspiracy making outlandish claims.
 
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rturner76

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Pleas do tell? What system do we have that is a racist system?
Two things are the courts and corporate America. black first-time offenders consistently get more jail time than whites. Corporate America is white at the executive level. The buddy system and nepotism put whites at an advantage when it comes to hiring and promoting.
 
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Ana the Ist

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Holy Toledo. This is not credible. The problem is not the confirmation bias. I assumed that that would have been accepted as a given from the outset. But I've had to explain it in about the 4 or 5 last posts. The problems are caused by unconscious bias.

You didn't read the link I provided or the quotes. There's no real evidence unconscious bias has a strong correlation to behavior.

And confirmation bias is an unconscious bias.
 
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