What are the reasons behind a person wrongfully rejecting the Trinity? (Trinity Christians Only)

[ViaCrucis]

By "incarnate into" I meant infleshment of the Spirit Son of God.
He became flesh. . .the Spirit Son of God was enfleshed (incarnated), took on flesh, a human body, in the womb of Mary.
That is redundant. He received upon himself flesh by the enfleshment.
Incarnation is enfleshment.

But there is a world of difference between the Son inhabiting a human and the Son becoming human.

Nestorianism says God dwelt in a man, rather than that God became a man.

That's why Christological concepts like anhypostasia and enhypostasia are important.

I was thrown off because you seem to have been making a distinction between Jesus, the man; and the Divine Logos; when there is no distinction to be made since it is the same Person. There is one Divine Person, Jesus Christ, the eternal Son of God. This one Person became human, without any change or lessening of what He was already, namely God.

That's why I'm belaboring the point about "into" here. The Son did not inhabit a human; the Son became human. The Son did not occupy Himself in a man named Jesus, the Son is the man named Jesus. Since there is no hypostasis for the humanity apart from the Divine Logos (anhypostasia), and it is the Divine Logos that "personalizes" the humanity (enhypostasia). Thus we are speaking of the humanity, the human flesh, of God.

As long as this is what's being communicates, that's what matters.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Andrewn]

This would be Modalism, which is false.

"Alister Edgar McGrath FRSA (born 1953) is a Northern Irish theologian, priest, intellectual historian, scientist, Christian apologist, and public intellectual. He currently holds the Andreas Idreos Professorship in Science and Religion in the Faculty of Theology and Religion, and is a fellow of Harris Manchester College at the University of Oxford,[8][9] and is Professor of Divinity at Gresham College.[10] He was previously Professor of Theology, Ministry, and Education at King's College London and Head of the Centre for Theology, Religion and Culture,[11] Professor of Historical Theology at the University of Oxford, and was principal of Wycliffe Hall, Oxford, until 2005. He is an Anglican priest.[12][13]

"Aside from being a faculty member at Oxford, McGrath has also taught at Cambridge University and is a Teaching Fellow at Regent College. McGrath holds three doctorates from the University of Oxford: a doctoral degree in molecular biophysics, a Doctor of Divinity degree in theology, and a Doctor of Letters degree in intellectual history.

"McGrath is noted for his work in historical theology, systematic theology, and the relationship between science and religion, as well as his writings on apologetics.[14] He is also known for his opposition to New Atheism and antireligionismand his advocacy of theological critical realism[15].[16][17][18][19] Among his best-known books are The Twilight of Atheism, The Dawkins Delusion?, Dawkins' God: Genes, Memes, and the Meaning of Life, and A Scientific Theology.[20] He is also the author of a number of popular textbooks on theology.[21]"

Alister McGrath - Wikipedia

In contrast to Modalism, the Father, the Son, and the HS are 3 personae / hypostases / qnome that existed from eternity. Plz look carefully at post #489. I would rather believe the orthodoxy of McGrath and others.

As far as the word "person" is concerned:

"Personhood is the status of being a person. Defining personhood is a controversial topic in philosophy and law, and is closely tied to legal and political concepts of citizenship, equality, and liberty. According to common worldwide general legal practice, only a natural person or legal personality has rights, protections, privileges, responsibilities, and legal liability. . . . In most societies today, postnatal humans are defined as persons. Likewise, certain legal entities such as corporations, sovereign states and other polities, or estates in probate are legally defined as persons.[7]"

Person - Wikipedia

 

[ViaCrucis]

"Alister Edgar McGrath FRSA (born 1953) is a Northern Irish theologian, priest, intellectual historian, scientist, Christian apologist, and public intellectual. He currently holds the Andreas Idreos Professorship in Science and Religion in the Faculty of Theology and Religion, and is a fellow of Harris Manchester College at the University of Oxford,[8][9] and is Professor of Divinity at Gresham College.[10] He was previously Professor of Theology, Ministry, and Education at King's College London and Head of the Centre for Theology, Religion and Culture,[11] Professor of Historical Theology at the University of Oxford, and was principal of Wycliffe Hall, Oxford, until 2005. He is an Anglican priest.[12][13]

"Aside from being a faculty member at Oxford, McGrath has also taught at Cambridge University and is a Teaching Fellow at Regent College. McGrath holds three doctorates from the University of Oxford: a doctoral degree in molecular biophysics, a Doctor of Divinity degree in theology, and a Doctor of Letters degree in intellectual history.

"McGrath is noted for his work in historical theology, systematic theology, and the relationship between science and religion, as well as his writings on apologetics.[14] He is also known for his opposition to New Atheism and antireligionismand his advocacy of theological critical realism[15].[16][17][18][19] Among his best-known books are The Twilight of Atheism, The Dawkins Delusion?, Dawkins' God: Genes, Memes, and the Meaning of Life, and A Scientific Theology.[20] He is also the author of a number of popular textbooks on theology.[21]"

Alister McGrath - Wikipedia

In contrast to Modalism, the Father, the Son, and the HS are 3 personae / hypostases / qnome that existed from eternity. Plz look carefully at post #489. I would rather believe the orthodoxy of McGrath and others.

As far as the word "person" is concerned:

"Personhood is the status of being a person. Defining personhood is a controversial topic in philosophy and law, and is closely tied to legal and political concepts of citizenship, equality, and liberty. According to common worldwide general legal practice, only a natural person or legal personality has rights, protections, privileges, responsibilities, and legal liability. . . . In most societies today, postnatal humans are defined as persons. Likewise, certain legal entities such as corporations, sovereign states and other polities, or estates in probate are legally defined as persons.[7]"

Person - Wikipedia

I have respect for McGrath, as such I hope that he isn't suggesting that we use "person" in the sense of a "mask", as that very much is Modalism, and which Tertullian himself rejected.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Butch5]

Each of the seven early day churches (speaking to the state of the churches later on in history) are led by the Holy Spirit. Thus is why the word “spirit” appears as capitalized (Spirit) in the King James Bible because they are not led by their own spirit but by the Holy Spirit.

Revelation 1:4 - “John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;”

Revelation 3:1 - “And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.”

KEY VERSE that tells us what the 7 Spirits are the 7 lamps of fire.

Revelation 4:5 - “…and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.”

Lamp stands are the same thing as candlesticks. The lamps of fire (or candlesticks) are the churches.

Revelation 1:20 - “…the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.”

Revelation 5:6 - “…and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.”

Based on these passages, we must conclude that the seven spirits of God are:

#1. Before His Throne,

#2. He has (holds/possesses) them, just as He holds the seven stars in His right hand (Rev 1:20),

#3. The seven lamps of fire, which burn before His Throne ARE the seven Spirits of God.

#4. The seven horns and seven eyes ARE the seven Spirits of God, who are sent out into all the earth.

#5. The seven candlesticks (lamps of fire burning) are the 7 Spirits of God.

So then there are seven Holy Spirits not one. That means 9 in the Gidhead.

 

[Butch5]

There are seven eyes that range to and fro throughout the earth that is mentioned in Zechariah 4:10. This is in context to the seven lamps (Zechariah 4:2). The churches do witness for the Lord.

What context is that?

 

[Butch5]

“Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist,” (1 John 4:2-3).

Obviously the 7 churches properly confessed Jesus Christ is come into the flesh. That is how we know know they are of the Spirit of God (i.e. that they have and are led by the Holy Spirit).

What about the rest of the churches who confessed Jesus Christi is come in the flesh? Are they spirits too.

Hiw isbthe breath of God a church.?

Remember, the eyes are the seven spirits. They Bible tells us what they are.

If every spirit that confesses Jesus is come in the flesh, is of God how many Holy Spirits are there? Could be millions. That's a big Godhead

 

[Andrewn]

I have respect for McGrath, as such I hope that he isn't suggesting that we use "person" in the sense of a "mask", as that very much is Modalism, and which Tertullian himself rejected.

McGrath is not using "persona" in the sense of a "mask." But it is not "person," either. He clearly says that God is One person, in the modern sense of the word, and this is the important point that Christians need to be taught.

Anyone who believes that Jesus Christ is eternal cannot be a Modalist.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

"Alister Edgar McGrath FRSA (born 1953) is a Northern Irish theologian, priest, intellectual historian, scientist, Christian apologist, and public intellectual. He currently holds the Andreas Idreos Professorship in Science and Religion in the Faculty of Theology and Religion, and is a fellow of Harris Manchester College at the University of Oxford,[8][9] and is Professor of Divinity at Gresham College.[10] He was previously Professor of Theology, Ministry, and Education at King's College London and Head of the Centre for Theology, Religion and Culture,[11] Professor of Historical Theology at the University of Oxford, and was principal of Wycliffe Hall, Oxford, until 2005. He is an Anglican priest.[12][13]

"Aside from being a faculty member at Oxford, McGrath has also taught at Cambridge University and is a Teaching Fellow at Regent College. McGrath holds three doctorates from the University of Oxford: a doctoral degree in molecular biophysics, a Doctor of Divinity degree in theology, and a Doctor of Letters degree in intellectual history.

"McGrath is noted for his work in historical theology, systematic theology, and the relationship between science and religion, as well as his writings on apologetics.[14] He is also known for his opposition to New Atheism and antireligionismand his advocacy of theological critical realism[15].[16][17][18][19] Among his best-known books are The Twilight of Atheism, The Dawkins Delusion?, Dawkins' God: Genes, Memes, and the Meaning of Life, and A Scientific Theology.[20] He is also the author of a number of popular textbooks on theology.[21]"

Alister McGrath - Wikipedia

In contrast to Modalism, the Father, the Son, and the HS are 3 personae / hypostases / qnome that existed from eternity. Plz look carefully at post #489. I would rather believe the orthodoxy of McGrath and others.

As far as the word "person" is concerned:

"Personhood is the status of being a person. Defining personhood is a controversial topic in philosophy and law, and is closely tied to legal and political concepts of citizenship, equality, and liberty. According to common worldwide general legal practice, only a natural person or legal personality has rights, protections, privileges, responsibilities, and legal liability. . . . In most societies today, postnatal humans are defined as persons. Likewise, certain legal entities such as corporations, sovereign states and other polities, or estates in probate are legally defined as persons.[7]"

Person - Wikipedia

He appears to teach against Modalism according to his own book. So McGrath is not teaching the idea that God simply puts on a mask or mode. So that is not what he is saying (Unless he has duped the Christian book publishers somehow or he changed his beliefs at some point).

See the comments on his book on how it briefly describes the error of Modalism.

Understanding the Trinity

 

[Bible Highlighter]

So then there are seven Holy Spirits not one. That means 9 in the Gidhead.

The Holy Spirit who is one person who makes up the Triune God (3 in one God) who dwells in each of the 7 churches. The Holy Spirit (one person of the Trinity) dwells in each of the 7 churches.

But by your illogical statement:

It’s like I put the same kind of fuel in all 7 cars by feeding a gas line into each gas tanks from a really large main gas container, and you state that all the 7 fuels are different somehow. So your statement is simply a bundle of confusion.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

What about the rest of the churches who confessed Jesus Christi is come in the flesh? Are they spirits too.

Hiw isbthe breath of God a church.?

Remember, the eyes are the seven spirits. They Bible tells us what they are.

If every spirit that confesses Jesus is come in the flesh, is of God how many Holy Spirits are there? Could be millions. That's a big Godhead

We are done having a continued discussion in this thread because you are not respecting my wishes for the thread. It’s like you invited yourself over my house when you were not invited. This thread does not include a belief in Binitarianism (Which is what you really believe by what you stated to me by email). I am asking Trinitarians and not Binitarians the question in the OP. So you are not welcome here in this thread because you do not qualify to contribute to this thread.

I am asking you nicely, please stop posting in my thread.
For how would you like if somebody kept disrespecting the OP of a thread you created? So do unto others as you want done unto yourself please. For who likes it when somebody else keeps interrupting a thread we created off the topic of the OP?

 

[Andrewn]

He appears to teach against Modalism according to his own book. So McGrath is not teaching the idea that God simply puts on a mask or mode. So that is not what he is saying

The only reason we're discussing the idea that God is One person is because McGrath said it. If I said it, the idea would have been just relegated to the Modalism can. You did this initially, not realizing the source.

Christian orthodoxy is that God is One person, in the modern sense of the word. But He is also 3 hypostases. McGrath, in the quoted statement, chose a word to describe the 3 hypostases. That word is not "mask."

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The only reason we're discussing the idea that God is One person is because McGrath said it. If I said it, the idea would have been just relegated to the Modalism can. You did this initially, not realizing the source.

Christian orthodoxy is that God is One person, in the modern sense of the word. But He is also 3 hypostases.

I think we would need McGrath here to explain it. People’s beliefs can change, and or their words can be taken out of context and twisted to fit their own viewpoint. In either case if he truly believed that God is one person he is in serious error and his discussion against Modalism is simply his own lack of understanding it. Modalism is the denial of three distinct persons because Modalism is teaching that God the Father (one person) simply puts on a mask or mode to pretend to be the Son, and or to pretend to be the Holy Spirit. The unique person of the Son does not really exist in Modalism because it is simply the Father in disguise as the Son. This is simply not the case because the Father sends the Son, and Jesus talks with the Father, and you can blaspheme the Holy Spirit and never be forgiven, and yet this is not the case with the Son.

 

[Andrewn]

I think we would need McGrath here to explain it. People’s beliefs can change, and or their words can be taken out of context and twisted to fit their own viewpoint. In either case if he truly believed that God is one person he is in serious error and his discussion against Modalism is simply his own lack of understanding it.

Perhaps you know better than McGrath!!!!!

Modalism is the denial of three distinct persons

No, this is the definition of Monotheism.

In Modalism, all the Godhead is understood to have dwelt in Jesus Christ from the incarnation. Oneness Pentecostals believe that Jesus was "Son" only when he became flesh on earth, but was the Father before being made man. They refer to the Father as the "Spirit" and the Son as the "Flesh."

Modalism is teaching that God the Father (one person) simply puts on a mask or mode to pretend to be the Son, and or to pretend to be the Holy Spirit. This is simply not the case because the Father sends the Son, and Jesus talks with the Father, and you can blaspheme the Holy Spirit and never be forgiven, and yet this is not the case with the Son.

This statement erects a straw man and beat it do death .

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Perhaps you know better than McGrath!!!!!

I honestly do not know what he believes. He is not here to defend himself. So it is speculation at best in what he says on this matter without him being present to speak for himself. But again, if he truly does currently believe God is one person and not three persons in one God, he would be in serious error because the Bible says in 1 John 5:7 that there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost, and these three are one. It does not say that these three are identical in every way, and they are merely names only. God is not the author of confusion.

No, this is the definition of Monotheism.

And Trinitarians are Monotheists, too.

In Modalism, all the Godhead is understood to have dwelt in Jesus Christ from the incarnation. Oneness Pentecostals believe that Jesus was "Son" only when he became flesh on earth, but was the Father before being made man. They refer to the Father as the "Spirit" and the Son as the "Flesh."

No. True Modalists do not believe the unique person of the Son exists and it is actually the Father in disguise in the flesh and not actually the unique person called the Son. So statements that Jesus said that the Father dwells in me and I dwell in the Father is complete and utter nonsense in the Modalism viewpoint. Maybe some in the so called Oneness camp are becoming liberal in their view of Modalism, but the hardcore fundamental Modalist believes that only God the Father exists and He just puts on a mask or disguise to be like the Son, etc.

Modalism is a serious error because it was not really the Son who died for you, but it was secretly the Father instead dying for man’s sins. Also, statements about the Father sending the Son also cannot be believed, either because it was simply the Father sending Himself and not the Son.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Perhaps you know better than McGrath!!!!!

No, this is the definition of Monotheism.

In Modalism, all the Godhead is understood to have dwelt in Jesus Christ from the incarnation. Oneness Pentecostals believe that Jesus was "Son" only when he became flesh on earth, but was the Father before being made man. They refer to the Father as the "Spirit" and the Son as the "Flesh."


This statement erects a straw man and beat it do death .

Modalism is a serious error. Take for example Binitarians (Those who believe in two gods, i.e. God the Father who is eternal, and Jesus who is a created demi-god); While some Binitarians hold to the view that the Holy Spirit is an impersonal force, there are other Binitarians who hold to Semi-Modalism (or Partial Modalism) in the fact that they think the Holy Spirit is actually just a secret name for God the Father. These Binitarians who think the Holy Spirit is just a secret name for God the Father are very confused, and may even state they believe in the Trinity when they really don’t.

 

[Andrewn]

the Bible says in 1 John 5:7 that there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost, and these three are one.

The verse doesn't say that they are 3 "persons."

And Trinitarians are Monotheists, too.

Yes, but Tritheists are not.

the hardcore fundamental Modalist believes that only God the Father exists and He just puts on a mask or disguise to be like the Son, etc.

Yes, exactly, and this is what McGrath does not say about the Trinity.

Modalism is a serious error. Take for example Binitarians (Those who believe in two gods, i.e. God the Father who is eternal, and Jesus who is a created demi-god);

Those who believe in 2 gods are neither Modalists nor Binitarians. Those who believe in 2 gods would be called Arians or Bitheists.

the Bible also teaches that there are distinctions within the Godhead or that there is a plural nature to God.

Nobody here denied this. There are 3 hypostases in God.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The verse doesn't say that they are 3 "persons."

The Bible teaches that there is one God (Deuteronomy 6:4) (1 Timothy 2:5) (Isaiah 45:5).

Yet, the Bible also teaches that there are distinctions within the Godhead or that there is a plural nature to God.

Here are a couple of quick points:

#1. The word Elohim (אֱלֹהִ֔ים) is both a singular and a plural noun.
#2. God refers to Himself in plural form (Genesis 1:26) (Genesis 3:22) (Genesis 11:7) (Isaiah 6:8).
#3. Plurality of God in New Testament (Matthew 28:19) (2 Corinthians 13:14) (John 14:16-20).
#4. Introductions to both the Son & Holy Spirit (Daniel 7:9,10,13,14) (John 14:16)
#5. Different persons of Godhead appear at one time (Luke 3:21-22)
#6. Distinctions of Wills (Luke 22:42).
#7. Conversations Between the Godhead (Psalm 2:1-12) (Psalm 45:6-7) (Psalm 110:1) (Matthew 11:27) (John 17:24).

John 1:1-2 KJV - "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was WITH God, and the Word WAS God. The same was in the beginning with God."

How can the Word BE God and yet be WITH God? This only makes sense if there is distinct persons in the Trinity or Godhead. Although the word "Trinity" is not found within the Scriptures, the word "Godhead" is used instead (Acts of the Apostles 17:29) (Romans 1:20) (Colossians 2:9).

Romans 1:20 says,
"For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:"

Meaning, even nature itself declares the Godhead (or the Trinity).

Atoms = Nucleus, Protons, Electrons.
Water Molecules = Hydrogen Atom, Hydrogen Atom, Oxygen Atom.
Man Made in God's Image = Physical Body, Spirit Body, Soul.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The verse doesn't say that they are 3 "persons."

A person is identified in that they have a mind, will, and emotions. All three persons of the Trinity (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) shown in Scripture are reflected as showing in that they are not impersonal forces but they each have a mind, will, and emotions (Suggesting a person). Each person of the Trinity is unique or distinct. The Father sends the Son, and it is not the Son who sent the Father. The Son prayed to the Father, and it was not the Father praying to the Son. Jesus died on the cross for our sins, and it was not the Father. The Holy Spirit is said to be ANOTHER Comforter (Which begs the question who was the first Comforter?). You can blaspheme the Spirit and never be forgiven, and yet this is not the case with the Son. The Holy Spirit can be grieved, and we know that Jesus wept. So they express emotions. The Holy Spirit teaches us, so it is a person and not just an impersonal force.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Yes, but Tritheists are not.

Never said otherwise. Yes, Tritheists (Who don’t believe in the Trinity) are not Monotheists. They believe in 3 separate gods and they don’t believe God is one God who also exists as three distinct persons (not separate persons).

Those who believe in 2 gods are neither Modalists nor Binitarians. Those who believe in 2 gods would be called Arians or Bitheists.

According to Wikipedia: Binitarians are associated with Binitarianism.

Just look at this article here:

Binitarianism - Wikipedia

But as I have shown, Binitarians CAN be partial Modalists. In some other instances, this is not the case for the Binitarian. For Modalism is when a person believes God just puts on a mode or mask to disguise Himself to be a different person of the Godhead. Some Binitarians (not all of them) believe that the Holy Spirit is just a secret name for God the Father. Whether or not you accept that fact does not undo this truth. I have talked to such a person by email who believes this way. It’s pretty crazy.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

the Bible also teaches that there are distinctions within the Godhead or that there is a plural nature to God.

Nobody here denied this. There are 3 hypostases in God.

Another poster in this thread mocks the idea of the Traditional View of the Trinity here saying that we believe in 4 gods, and or 9 (Thereby showing his own lack of understanding the Trinity).

You yourself appear to be pushing Modalism (Which is a denial of the distinct persons of the Godhead or Trinity), which is a denial of the Trinity, too. Modalists can use clever word play and say that the Father pretending to be the Son can APPEAR to be distinct but they are not really distinct persons, though. For you have been fighting against the idea that the Lord our God is one God yet He is three distinct persons.