What are the reasons behind a person wrongfully rejecting the Trinity? (Trinity Christians Only)

[Clare73]

Just for some clarity, what do you mean when you say "incarnate into"?

-CryptoLutheran

I'm using "incarnate" as a verb.

I mean the spirit person, the Son of God, investing himself with flesh in a human body.

 

[Clare73]

1Pe 3:15 But keep the Lord Christ holy in your hearts. Always be ready to answer everyone who asks you to explain about the hope you have.

I'm not getting the connection between my question regarding the Muslim's response and your answer.
Can you help me out here?

 

[ViaCrucis]

I'm using "incarnate" as a verb.

I mean the spirit person, the Son of God, investing himself with flesh in a human body.

That's not quite the answer I was trying to get at. It was your use of the word "into" that I wanted to focus on.

Did the Son incarnate into a human named Jesus? Is that what you are saying?

If it is, then it is vitally important to point out that this is a deep, deep Christological error.

The Son did not incarnate into a human. The humanity conceived is the Son's true humanity. There was not a human for the Son to incarnate into; but the Son received upon Himself that very humanity by the Incarnation.

The Word became flesh; not the Word inhabited flesh. The Word was conceived and born, truly human, of the Virgin. Neither ceasing to be what He was already, true God of true God. But He is true God and true man in perfect unity of His Person. The two natures neither mixing, confusing, nor being divided--so that Mary gives birth to the one eternal and undivided Person: Jesus, the God-Man.

He did not incarnate into a man;
He incarnated as a man.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Clare73]

I mean the spirit person, the Son of God, investing himself with flesh in a human body.

That's not quite the answer I was trying to get at. It was your use of the word "into" that I wanted to focus on.

Did the Son incarnate into a human named Jesus? Is that what you are saying?

By "incarnate into" I meant infleshment of the Spirit Son of God.
He became flesh. . .the Spirit Son of God was enfleshed (incarnated), took on flesh, a human body, in the womb of Mary.

If it is, then it is vitally important to point out that this is a deep, deep Christological error.

The Son did not incarnate into a human. The humanity conceived is the Son's true humanity. There was not a human for the Son to incarnate into; but the Son received upon Himself that very humanity by the Incarnation.

That is redundant. He received upon himself flesh by the enfleshment.
Incarnation is enfleshment.

The Word became flesh; not the Word inhabited flesh. The Word was conceived and born, truly human, of the Virgin. Neither ceasing to be what He was already, true God of true God. But He is true God and true man in perfect unity of His Person. The two natures neither mixing, confusing, nor being divided--so that Mary gives birth to the one eternal and undivided Person: Jesus, the God-Man.

He did not incarnate into a man;
He incarnated as a man.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Andrewn]

1Pe 3:15 But keep the Lord Christ holy in your hearts. Always be ready to answer everyone who asks you to explain about the hope you have.

I'm not getting the connection between my question regarding the Muslim's response and your answer. Can you help me out here?

What I meant is that all of us should be ready with convincing answers about our belief. We should equip younger people (esp. 12-22 age category) so that their faith may not be shaken when questioned, and hopefully then may even win souls.

This thread was started with the question, "What are the reasons behind a person wrongfully rejecting the Trinity?" The answer expressed by some was it seemed like an unintelligible and unbiblical concept.

Then I asked the question, "How do we describe the Trinity to unbelievers, especially Moslems and Atheists?"

We, Trinitarians, should always be ready to answer.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

Then I asked the question, "How do we describe the Trinity to unbelievers, especially Moslems and Atheists?"
.

What is moslems ?

Did you mean Muslims ?

 

[Jay Sea]

And what God wills is part of the doctrine of Christian faith.
That God loves is part of the doctrine of Christian faith, etc., etc.

Should it not be the other way round. That doctrine may be part of what G-d wills as doctrine comes from men's thoughts on Scripture but is not Scripture.
In Love
Jay SEa

 

[Clare73]

Should it not be the other way round. That doctrine may be part of what G-d wills as doctrine comes from men's thoughts on Scripture but is not Scripture.
In Love
Jay SEa

You are in disagreement with the NT regarding doctrine.
1 Timothy 1:3, 10, 4:16, 6:3, 2 Timothy 4:3, Titus 1:9, 2:1.

We only know what God wills from his revelation, which is what Christian doctrine is.
Christian doctrine is that God wills the born again to be holy.

We only know that God loves from his revelation, which is what Christian doctrine is.
Christian doctrine is that God is love.

Christian doctrine is simply God's truth in Scripture.

 

[Andrewn]

I previously asked whether the Trinitarian concept of "3 hypostases" or "3 personae" is the same as "3 persons." This issue is addressed by Trinitarian scholar and Christian apologist Alister McGrath:

"The word 'person' has changed its meaning since the third century when it began to be used in connection with the 'threefoldness of God'. When we talk about God as a person, we naturally think of God as being one person. But theologians such as Tertullian, writing in the third century, used the word 'person' with a different meaning. The word 'person' originally derives from the Latin word persona, meaning an actor's face-mask—and, by extension, the role which he takes in a play. By stating that there were three persons but only one God, Tertullian was asserting that all three major roles in the great drama of human redemption are played by the one and the same God. The three great roles in this drama are all played by the same actor: God. Each of these roles may reveal God in a somewhat different way, but it is the same God in every case. So when we talk about God as one person, we mean one person in the modern sense of the word, and when we talk about God as three persons, we mean three persons in the ancient sense of the word. ... Confusing these two senses of the word 'person' inevitably leads to the idea that God is actually a committee.[67]"

 

[Bible Highlighter]

What is moslems ?

Did you mean Muslims ?

It appears that Moslem is an older use of the word Muslim.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I previously asked whether the Trinitarian concept of "3 hypostases" or "3 personae" is the same as "3 persons." This issue is addressed by Trinitarian scholar and Christian apologist Alister McGrath:

"The word 'person' has changed its meaning since the third century when it began to be used in connection with the 'threefoldness of God'. When we talk about God as a person, we naturally think of God as being one person. But theologians such as Tertullian, writing in the third century, used the word 'person' with a different meaning. The word 'person' originally derives from the Latin word persona, meaning an actor's face-mask—and, by extension, the role which he takes in a play. By stating that there were three persons but only one God, Tertullian was asserting that all three major roles in the great drama of human redemption are played by the one and the same God. The three great roles in this drama are all played by the same actor: God. Each of these roles may reveal God in a somewhat different way, but it is the same God in every case. So when we talk about God as one person, we mean one person in the modern sense of the word, and when we talk about God as three persons, we mean three persons in the ancient sense of the word. ... Confusing these two senses of the word 'person' inevitably leads to the idea that God is actually a committee.[67]"

This would be Modalism, which is false. God does not put on a mode or a mask (Which is Modalism). For who was Jesus praying to if God just play acts in putting on different masks? If Modalism was true: How can one blaspheme the Spirit and never be forgiven, and yet this is not the case if one were to blaspheme the Son?

 

[Butch5]

We have one God in three persons, the Father is fully God, the Son is fully God, and the Holy Spirit, is fully God.

"And to the angel of the church in Sardis write,`These things says He who has the seven Spirits of God and the seven stars: "I know your works, that you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead. (Rev. 3:1 NKJ)

Uh Oh, Looks like we have 10 persons now....

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

We have one God in three persons, the Father is fully God, the Son is fully God, and the Holy Spirit, is fully God.

"And to the angel of the church in Sardis write,`These things says He who has the seven Spirits of God and the seven stars: "I know your works, that you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead. (Rev. 3:1 NKJ)

Uh Oh, Looks like we have 10 persons now....

Nice try but you failed since that is apocalyptic language filled with symbolism not to be taken literally . You do not understand the language and imagery of the Bible which is evident by your above fallacious argument.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Butch5]

Nice try but you failed since that is apocalyptic language filled with symbolism not to be taken literally . You do not understand the language and imagery of the Bible which is evident by your above fallacious argument.
That's pretty funny. You said it's symbolism but didn't explain how. I guess we should take your word for it? Yes, the book of Revelation is full of symbolism. However, in that passage Jesus is giving a letter to the church. Hardly symbolism. But, since one of us can explain it and it seems the other one can't, well....

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I believe the 7 Spirits of God are the 7 Spirit filled churches (i.e. They are the seven early day churches who are glorified who all started off right or correctly) speaking to the state of each church later on throughout later history.

Here is the article that explains it really well.
The Seven Spirits of God - The Flame of the Menorah!

 

[Butch5]

I believe the 7 Spirits of God are the 7 Spirit filled churches.

Here is the article that explains it really well.
The Seven Spirits of God - The Flame of the Menorah!

John tells us what they are.

And I looked, and behold, in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as though it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent out into all the earth. (Rev. 5:6 NKJ)

So, is this seven more persons in the Godhead? These are the eyes of the lamb. They are the spirits of God. If you notice in post 492, the translators capitalized Spirits. They do that to indicate the Holy Spirit. Are there 7 Holy Spirits?

 

[Butch5]

I believe the 7 Spirits of God are the 7 Spirit filled churches (i.e. They are the seven early day churches who are glorified who all started off right or correctly) speaking to the state of each church later on throughout later history.

Here is the article that explains it really well.
The Seven Spirits of God - The Flame of the Menorah!

If so what church is the Holy Spirit?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Each of the seven early day churches (speaking to the state of the churches later on in history) are led by the Holy Spirit. Thus is why the word “spirit” appears as capitalized (Spirit) in the King James Bible because they are not led by their own spirit but by the Holy Spirit.

Revelation 1:4 - “John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;”

Revelation 3:1 - “And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.”

KEY VERSE that tells us what the 7 Spirits are the 7 lamps of fire.

Revelation 4:5 - “…and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.”

Lamp stands are the same thing as candlesticks. The lamps of fire (or candlesticks) are the churches.

Revelation 1:20 - “…the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.”

Revelation 5:6 - “…and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.”

Based on these passages, we must conclude that the seven spirits of God are:

#1. Before His Throne,

#2. He has (holds/possesses) them, just as He holds the seven stars in His right hand (Rev 1:20),

#3. The seven lamps of fire, which burn before His Throne ARE the seven Spirits of God.

#4. The seven horns and seven eyes ARE the seven Spirits of God, who are sent out into all the earth.

#5. The seven candlesticks (lamps of fire burning) are the 7 Spirits of God.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

“Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist,” (1 John 4:2-3).

Obviously the 7 churches properly confessed Jesus Christ is come into the flesh. That is how we know know they are of the Spirit of God (i.e. that they have and are led by the Holy Spirit).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

There are seven eyes that range to and fro throughout the earth that is mentioned in Zechariah 4:10. This is in context to the seven lamps (Zechariah 4:2). The churches do witness for the Lord.