Jesus teaching on the New Birth, Born Again !

[Jesus is YHWH]

Thanks.
These scriptures seem to indicate a present kingdom here.

Matthew 12:28 NRSV
But if it is by the Spirit of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come to you.

Matthew 11:12 NRSV
From the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven has suffered violence, and the violent take it by force.

Yes they are both since the kingdom in in us and we presently live here. The Sermon on the mount is Kingdom living here.

 

[Mr. M]

Neither can a person call Gods Spirit in the new birth as it’s an Act of GOD. See John 1:13. Born again by God.

25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.
17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

All who hear will live, but what will they do with that life? Bear fruit? Wither and be cast aside?

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.
17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

All who hear will live, but what will they do with that life? Bear fruit? Wither and be cast aside?

Where is the new birth/ regeneration mentioned there ?

BTW- I love that verse.

 

[Mr. M]

Where is the new birth/ regeneration mentioned there ?

v. 25 is the new birth by the statement "now is"
judgment is referenced in v. 28
28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

What alternative are you suggesting for verse 25, if not new birth, when He states,
"the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God;
and those who hear will live".
The physically dead? Not by the context of this teaching. Hearing the voice includes that of
the ones He has sent.
1 Corinthians 1:21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God,
it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

v. 25 is the new birth by the statement "now is"
judgment is referenced in v. 28
28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

What alternative are you suggesting for verse 25, if not new birth, when He states,
"the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God;
and those who hear will live".
The physically dead? Not by the context of this teaching. Hearing the voice includes that of
the ones He has sent.
1 Corinthians 1:21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God,
it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.

If you want to discuss the new birth, regeneration, born of the spirit, born of God then I will discuss those passages. The one you are using is not talking about the new birth otherwise it would be mentioned in the text.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Saint Steven]

Yes they are both since the kingdom in in us and we presently live here. The Sermon on the mount is Kingdom living here.

Back to my original question then.
Jesus may be referring to "seeing" the kingdom in us now rather than referring to heaven in the afterlife.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

Back to my original question then.
Jesus may be referring to "seeing" the kingdom in us now rather than referring to heaven in the afterlife.

and sometimes its not an either/or but it can be both.

 

[Mr. M]

If you want to discuss the new birth, regeneration, born of the spirit, born of God then I will discuss those passages. The one you are using is not talking about the new birth otherwise it would be mentioned in the text.

hope this helps !!!

I just asked what the alternative understanding would be. Do you not see a contrast being made
between V. 25, and 28? In the second statement, "the time is coming when" clearly refers to the
resurrection and judgment.
28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.
In verse 25, the time is coming and now is
25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.
So you are saying that this does not refer to spiritual rebirth, because terminology from John 3
discussion with Nicodemus in not used? Again, what then is the alternative? Verse 25 is clearly
referring to spiritual rebirth by contrast to verse 28. You are not offering another view by simply
telling me I am wrong. Right?

 

[Mr. M]

Back to my original question then.
Jesus may be referring to "seeing" the kingdom in us now rather than referring to heaven in the afterlife.

This would further require "purity of heart".
Matthew 5:8

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

I just asked what the alternative understanding would be. Do you not see a contrast being made
between V. 25, and 28? In the second statement, "the time is coming when" clearly refers to the
resurrection and judgment.
28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.
In verse 25, the time is coming and now is
25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.
So you are saying that this does not refer to spiritual rebirth, because terminology from John 3
discussion with Nicodemus in not used? Again, what then is the alternative? Verse 25 is clearly
referring to spiritual rebirth by contrast to verse 28. You are not offering another view by simply
telling me I am wrong. Right?

The resurrection of both the dead and living will be believers(those born of the spirit) and those unbelievers(not born of the spirit).

Its the difference between inductive and deductive reasoning.

Does that help ?

 

[Mr. M]

If you want to discuss the new birth, regeneration, born of the spirit, born of God then I will discuss those passages. The one you are using is not talking about the new birth otherwise it would be mentioned in the text.

hope this helps !!!

The John 5 doctrine of Christ clearly is dealing with the new birth.
21 For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them,
even so the Son gives life to whom He will.
24 Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

 

[Mr. M]

The resurrection of both the dead and living will be believers(those born of the spirit) and those unbelievers(not born of the spirit).

Its the difference between inductive and deductive reasoning.

Does that help ?

Sure, as it applies to verses 28 and 29.
You have not justified excluding the earlier verses from the discussion on being reborn.
Verses 21-25, what is being referenced then?

 

[Saint Steven]

This would further require "purity of heart".
Matthew 5:8

How would you define "purity of heart" in that context?

 

[Saint Steven]

8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”

Those who are born again are directed by an unseen force. We don't know where it came from, or where it is taking us.

How many of us keep our "boat" tied to the dock instead of following the Spirit where it might take us? Three sheets to the wind, as the saying goes. That's where the adventure is.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

Sure, as it applies to verses 28 and 29.
You have not justified excluding the earlier verses from the discussion on being reborn.
Verses 21-25, what is being referenced then?

Those are the by product or results from one who is born again. You are putting the cart before the horse. None of that happens until after the new birth. The new birth precedes everything else. It comes first just like you cannot see, breathe, cry, eat or anything else until you are born and leave the womb. The spiritual birth precedes all the things in John 5 just like the OP states. Spiritual birth from the dead precedes the Christian life that we live.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Mr. M]

How would you define "purity of heart" in that context?

Our will aligned with His Will. Period. No personal agenda.
John 7:17 If anyone wills to do His Will, he shall know concerning the doctrine,
whether it is from God or whether I speak on My own authority.

 

[JerryinMass]

John 3:3-10
3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.”

4 “How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely, they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”

5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”

9 “How can this be?” Nicodemus asked.

10 “You are Israel’s teacher,” said Jesus, “and do you not understand these things?


So let’s go through this point by point.

1- to enter the kingdom of God a person must be born again( a 2nd time)
2- flesh gives birth to flesh ( 1st birth )
3- the Spirit gives birth to spirit( 2nd birth )
4- the wind(spirit) blows wherever IT pleases
5- we hear the sound of the wind but do not know where it is coming from or going to
6- the same with the Spirit( we see its effects but not its coming or going)
7- the spirit is the same as the wind- it does as it pleases and we see its effects in both the natural(wind) and supernatural ( spirit)
8- nowhere in this passage does it say that a man chooses to be born again
9- the new birth is compared to the physical birth just as the wind is compared to the spirits work
10- in both cases of birth God is the Active One and the one who is birthed is passive in the process.

Summary: just as flesh gives birth to flesh( 1st birth as a person) so too does the Spirit give birth to the spirit(the new birth- born again)

There can be no other reading into the text but what has been outlined in the 10 points. Those 10 points are directly from the text.

Regeneration-born again has to do with the wind in the context and parallels the new birth in that process.

This topic is specifically the New Birth, Born Again of the Spirit which is compared to the Wind and how it operates as Jesus the Master Teacher illustrated in John 3 to Nicodemus.

Here are a couple of questions to ponder from the text.

1- Do you control or have any influence over the wind?
2- Can you call the wind?

Neither can a person call Gods Spirit in the new birth as it’s an Act of GOD. See John 1:13. Born again by God.


The PARALLELS and CONTRASTS Jesus makes in the passage are the following 10 off the top of my head reading through the passage:

1- the 2 births
2- the wind and the spirit
3- flesh and the spirit
4- water and spirit
5- earthly and heavenly things
6- effects of both the wind and spirit
7- the seen with the unseen
8- the physical with the supernatural
9- knowing and not knowing, understanding and not understanding
10- entering the kingdom and not entering the kingdom

hope this helps !!!

God's grace offer is to the world, and none of us has any control or will by ourselves or on our own to receive it. When the Spirit quickens the spiritually dead, then are we able to say yes to God's grace, and only then are we born again.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

God's grace offer is to the world, and none of us has any control or will by ourselves or on our own to receive it. When the Spirit quickens the spiritually dead, then are we able to say yes to God's grace, and only then are we born again.

Amen

 

[Saint Steven]

Our will aligned with His Will. Period. No personal agenda.
John 7:17 If anyone wills to do His Will, he shall know concerning the doctrine,
whether it is from God or whether I speak on My own authority.

What came to mind for me is selfless motives. (as purity of heart)
But the two would be connected, obviously.

Saint Steven said: ↑
How would you define "purity of heart" in that context?

 

[Mr. M]

What came to mind for me is selfless motives. (as purity of heart)
But the two would be connected, obviously.

Saint Steven said: ↑
How would you define "purity of heart" in that context?

I think I am agreeing with:
"selfless motives. (as purity of heart)"=

No personal agenda.

"I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me."
John 5:30