The Harvest At The End Of The Age

[FaithWillDo]

Matthew 13:24-40:
24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:

25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.

26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.

27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?

28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?

29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.

30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

31 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field:

32 Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof.

33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.

34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:

35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.

36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.

37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;

38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.


What is this harvest? Is this the revealing of the Sons of God?

Romans 8:19:
For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God.

Or is this the rapture? Or both? Or none of them?

Thoughts please Be kind as we discuss. Don't try to provoke arguments, but feel free to share your honest views.

DearSongOnTheWind,
This parable is one of the "the kingdom of Heaven is like" parables. All parables that start off in this manner are teaching on certain aspects of the pathway to salvation.

Christ said the Kingdom of Heaven comes "within" a person so these parables must be applied "within" us. They are spiritual and the spiritual happens "within" us which is where the work of the New Covenant occurs. The Old Covenant is outward and tries to make one righteous through man's outward works. But the New Covenant is spiritual and is Christ's work of changing us spiritually.

The teaching of the parable of the Wheat and the Tares must be applied within a person to properly understand its meaning. In short, the harvest at the end of the world is a believer's moment of conversion when they receive the Latter Rain of the Spirit from Christ. That is the point when the "Man of Sin", who is of this world, is destroyed and the new child of God, who is of the Kingdom of Heaven, is born.

Here is a short summary of the meaning of the parable:

Mankind is the field in the world. When Christ comes to us the first time with the Early Rain of the Spirit (what Paul received on the Damascus Road), Christ plants His seed of the Holy Spirit (corn of wheat) within us. At that time, the new child of God is in the womb and not yet born. When it grows into wheat, the unborn child will be ready to be born into the kingdom of Heaven (ready to be harvested).

However, at the time Christ plants His seed within us, He leaves us spiritually blind and we cannot understand the truth of God (Paul's blindness, Mark 8:21-25 & Mat 12:43-45). In other words, Christ does not "appear" to us at the time of the Early Rain and we cannot "see" Him. The Word of God remains concealed from our understanding.

Soon after we receive the Early Rain of the Spirit, Satan comes to us at night (our time of spiritual blindness) and plants His seed (seed of the tares) within us, too. When it grows into a tare (child of the Devil, Man of Sin), it is ready for judgment (burned).

As a result of both the child of God and the child of the Devil living within us, we mix "faith" (which is what the child of God walks by) with "works" (which is what a child of the Devil walks by). This mixture causes us to "fall away" because we cannot serve two masters (Mat 6:24). Once we have fallen away from the truth, we cannot be renewed by repentance (Heb 6:4-6). Our only hope for salvation is for Christ to "come again" when the wheat is ready to be harvested. This second coming event is the Latter Rain of the Spirit. It is the same event that the Apostles received in the Upper Room and the same event Paul experienced after being blind and in bed in Damascus for three days. It is also called the Baptism of the Spirit.

At the time the harvest (Latter Rain), Christ heals our spiritual blindness. The Man of Sin is judged and destroyed by the brightness of Christ's appearance. This "appearance" happens within us because Christ heals our spiritual blindness and we can, for the first time, understand the truth of God. After this happens, the Man of Sin is revealed to us (2Thes 2:1-8) and is destroyed. All that remains is the child of God who has just been born. This is the moment of conversion and is when a new child of God is harvested in the Kingdom of Heaven.

Most of the teachings of Christ in the Gospels and the teachings of the apostles are interconnected and teach on the pathway to salvation. It is mostly taught in bits & pieces with a "little here and a little there":

Isa 28: 10-12 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: 11 For with stammering lips and another tongue (Christ's spiritual language) will he speak to this people. 12 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

The pathway to salvation starts with the Early Rain of the Spirit when an unbeliever is "called out" from the world. But because our spiritual blindness is not healed, Satan deceives us and we "fall away" and lose our salvation. We unknowingly eat the leavened bread of Mat 13:33. However, if we are one of Christ's Elect who have been chosen from the foundation of the world, He will "come again" (the second coming of Christ) to us before we physically die and give us the Latter Rain of the Spirit. At that point, we are "born again" and made into a "new vessel".

Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.

I know that probably most of what I presented in this post is new to you so I encourage you to ask questions. I would be happy to try and help you understand more fully.

Joe

 

[Spiritual Jew]

One more thing, when Jesus was speaking of "the end" in Matthew 24:14, it was in response to the disciples asking "when will be the end of the age"? (Matthew 24:3)

So Jesus' answer referred to the end of the age, not the end of the world and since we know that age ended almost 2000 years ago, we know the end has come.

No, the end of the age did not come almost 2000 years ago. You are contradicting this passage:

Luke 20:34 Jesus replied, “The people of this age marry and are given in marriage. 35 But those who are considered worthy of taking part in the age to come and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage, 36 and they can no longer die; for they are like the angels. They are God’s children, since they are children of the resurrection.

Jesus was speaking here of the age that you try to say ended long ago in contrast to the age to come. He indicated that this age is the age when people get married and they die. He contrasted that with the age to come when people will not marry and will no longer die (Rev 21:4). This age has not yet ended as people are still getting married and dying.

Your view also contradicts this passage:

Matthew 13:47 “Once again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net that was let down into the lake and caught all kinds of fish. 48 When it was full, the fishermen pulled it up on the shore. Then they sat down and collected the good fish in baskets, but threw the bad away. 49 This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous 50 and throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

In no way, shape or form did what is described in this passage happen almost 2000 years ago. And it says it will happen at the end of the age. Clearly, we have not yet reached the end of the age. The fishing net is not yet full and the angels have not yet separated the wicked from the righteous.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

It has happened. It clearly has not happened the way you imagine it, but you're imagining it wrong.

Don't you believe that when you die you will be reborn into a heavenly body immediately, thereby never having to experience death? Is this not inheriting the glory of the kingdom? Eternal life in a heavenly body? If not this, then what?

Now, why would he believe that when Paul taught that it won't happen for any of us until the last trumpet sounds? Your view contradicts 1 Corinthians 15:50-54 which indicates that our bodies will all be changed to be immortal, spiritual bodies at the same time, which is when the last trumpet sounds. That completely contradicts your claim that it happens for each person immediately upon death.

Jesus taught that a singular time or hour is coming when all the dead will be raised (John 5:28-29). Paul taught that all the dead in Christ will be raised at the same time (1 Cor 15:22-23, 1 Cor 15:50-54, 1 Thess 4:14-17). Scripture never teaches that anyone is immediately resurrected upon death.

 

[Freedm]

The word that Paul actually uses is 'perfected', which includes being completed. I know I am not perfect yet.

When did He come back in AD 70? Did every eye see Him? How did history bury it if every eye did?

I think I understand why you see this the way you do, but those questions will always be there for me.

My quarrel (if any at all ) is with the idea, not with you. Just trying to understand where you are coming from

I appreciate your humble attitude. Too often on these forums I find people get very defensive and even angry when others disagree.

Anyway, I realize that not everything is obvious or easy to understand, and I don't understand it all myself, but I do 100% believe that I'm on the right track because I've been on all the other tracks before and this track makes the most sense, by far.

Yes, there are some verses that are hard to reconcile with a 70 AD coming, but there are even more verses that are hard to reconcile with a future coming. For example:

Matthew 16:28
“Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”

or

Matthew 24:34
Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

You have to get really creative with the words here to claim this did not apply to the first century AD, and that has always bothered me. In fact the entire Olivet discourse makes far more sense in light of a 70 AD return. I used to be one of those people who would say to others "this generation refers to the generation that sees these things, not the actual generation he was talking to". And I convinced myself that this was a good explanation, but it wasn't, and it still isn't. The best explanation is always the most obvious, and in this case that means he was literally talking about that generation that he was a part of.

It also helps to understand that "coming on clouds" and "the sky will roll up like a scroll" and "thunder and lightning are round about him" is all symbolic language. When you consider language like that literal, then of course you're going to say "this has never happened", but when you realize that it's all symbolic it opens up a whole new world of possibilities.

You say "those questions will always be there for me" but I think if you're honest, even with your current understanding there are verses that are difficult to reconcile. For example, do you believe a third temple needs to be built? That belief is literally impossible to reconcile with the gospel, but people try. I don't have to.

 

[Freedm]

No, the end of the age did not come almost 2000 years ago. You are contradicting this passage:

Luke 20:34 Jesus replied, “The people of this age marry and are given in marriage. 35 But those who are considered worthy of taking part in the age to come and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage, 36 and they can no longer die; for they are like the angels. They are God’s children, since they are children of the resurrection.

The previous age was an age in which nobody was resurrected. Today we live in an age where the believers are resurrected. Do you not believe this?

Notice that Jesus' statement here was an answer to the Sadducees who asked specifically about marriage after the resurrection. Jesus' answer was to explain that those who are resurrected in the next age (ie. those who are worthy to reach that age and to rise from the dead), those will not marry again for they will be like the angels.

This makes perfect sense both in the context of the question Jesus was answering, and in the context of my understanding of the end of the previous age in which nobody was resurrected. Yes, people are still getting married and dying, but not those who've been resurrected. They neither marry, nor die.

Your view also contradicts this passage:

Matthew 13:47 “Once again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net that was let down into the lake and caught all kinds of fish. 48 When it was full, the fishermen pulled it up on the shore. Then they sat down and collected the good fish in baskets, but threw the bad away. 49 This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous 50 and throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

In no way, shape or form did what is described in this passage happen almost 2000 years ago.

Or did it? Do you think we, in this dimension, would be witness to what happens in the heavenly realm? I don't think so.

I should clarify however that I believe this happens on an individual basis when people die. At the point of death they are either put in with the good fish who enjoy eternal life, or discarded into eternal death. I believe this began 2000 years ago and continues to this day. It's an ongoing process, but 2000 years ago there would've been millions if not billions of people who went through this process at that time because prior to that they were all just sleeping in the earth with their ancestors waiting for the last day of the age of death.

 

[SongOnTheWind]

I appreciate your humble attitude. Too often on these forums I find people get very defensive and even angry when others disagree.

Anyway, I realize that not everything is obvious or easy to understand, and I don't understand it all myself, but I do 100% believe that I'm on the right track because I've been on all the other tracks before and this track makes the most sense, by far.

Yes, there are some verses that are hard to reconcile with a 70 AD coming, but there are even more verses that are hard to reconcile with a future coming. For example:

Matthew 16:28
“Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”

or

Matthew 24:34
Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

You have to get really creative with the words here to claim this did not apply to the first century AD, and that has always bothered me. In fact the entire Olivet discourse makes far more sense in light of a 70 AD return. I used to be one of those people who would say to others "this generation refers to the generation that sees these things, not the actual generation he was talking to". And I convinced myself that this was a good explanation, but it wasn't, and it still isn't. The best explanation is always the most obvious, and in this case that means he was literally talking about that generation that he was a part of.

It also helps to understand that "coming on clouds" and "the sky will roll up like a scroll" and "thunder and lightning are round about him" is all symbolic language. When you consider language like that literal, then of course you're going to say "this has never happened", but when you realize that it's all symbolic it opens up a whole new world of possibilities.

You say "those questions will always be there for me" but I think if you're honest, even with your current understanding there are verses that are difficult to reconcile. For example, do you believe a third temple needs to be built? That belief is literally impossible to reconcile with the gospel, but people try. I don't have to.

Whatever our disagreement may be, I admire your conviction and your faith. That is what will sustain us until the very end, my friend

 

[Freedm]

Now, why would he believe that when Paul taught that it won't happen for any of us until the last trumpet sounds? Your view contradicts 1 Corinthians 15:50-54 which indicates that our bodies will all be changed to be immortal, spiritual bodies at the same time, which is when the last trumpet sounds. That completely contradicts your claim that it happens for each person immediately upon death.

Jesus taught that a singular time or hour is coming when all the dead will be raised (John 5:28-29). Paul taught that all the dead in Christ will be raised at the same time (1 Cor 15:22-23, 1 Cor 15:50-54, 1 Thess 4:14-17). Scripture never teaches that anyone is immediately resurrected upon death.

I don't see the contradiction at all. The last trumpet did sound. In that hour of which Jesus spoke, all the dead were indeed raised. Remember that before Jesus conquered death, everybody experienced death. Even all the saints who lived in the OT. They died, and they were buried. Those people were all resurrected when the last trumpet sounded on the last day.

Since then, none of us have to experience death. You say scripture doesn't teach an immediate resurrection? I disagree. I believe Jesus is teaching it right here:

John 11:25
Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die;

And here...

John 11:26
and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?”

And here

John 8:51
I tell you the truth, anyone who obeys my teaching will never die!

And here

Matthew 16:28
Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom

And here

John 8:52
you say that whoever obeys your word will never taste death.

The only way to never experience death is to be resurrected immediately upon death. Otherwise, if we have to another thousand years (or whatever) for the resurrection then we will indeed taste death and Jesus would be wrong. I don't think he was wrong.

 

[Freedm]

The word that Paul actually uses is 'perfected', which includes being completed. I know I am not perfect yet.

Actually, you are perfect because all of your sins have been washed away. God does not see imperfection when he looks at you. He sees perfection.

 

[SongOnTheWind]

DearSongOnTheWind,
This parable is one of the "the kingdom of Heaven is like" parables. All parables that start off in this manner are teaching on certain aspects of the pathway to salvation.

Christ said the Kingdom of Heaven comes "within" a person so these parables must be applied "within" us. They are spiritual and the spiritual happens "within" us which is where the work of the New Covenant occurs. The Old Covenant is outward and tries to make one righteous through man's outward works. But the New Covenant is spiritual and is Christ's work of changing us spiritually.

The teaching of the parable of the Wheat and the Tares must be applied within a person to properly understand its meaning. In short, the harvest at the end of the world is a believer's moment of conversion when they receive the Latter Rain of the Spirit from Christ. That is the point when the "Man of Sin", who is of this world, is destroyed and the new child of God, who is of the Kingdom of Heaven, is born.

Here is a short summary of the meaning of the parable:

Mankind is the field in the world. When Christ comes to us the first time with the Early Rain of the Spirit (what Paul received on the Damascus Road), Christ plants His seed of the Holy Spirit (corn of wheat) within us. At that time, the new child of God is in the womb and not yet born. When it grows into wheat, the unborn child will be ready to be born into the kingdom of Heaven (ready to be harvested).

However, at the time Christ plants His seed within us, He leaves us spiritually blind and we cannot understand the truth of God (Paul's blindness, Mark 8:21-25 & Mat 12:43-45). In other words, Christ does not "appear" to us at the time of the Early Rain and we cannot "see" Him. The Word of God remains concealed from our understanding.

Soon after we receive the Early Rain of the Spirit, Satan comes to us at night (our time of spiritual blindness) and plants His seed (seed of the tares) within us, too. When it grows into a tare (child of the Devil, Man of Sin), it is ready for judgment (burned).

As a result of both the child of God and the child of the Devil living within us, we mix "faith" (which is what the child of God walks by) with "works" (which is what a child of the Devil walks by). This mixture causes us to "fall away" because we cannot serve two masters (Mat 6:24). Once we have fallen away from the truth, we cannot be renewed by repentance (Heb 6:4-6). Our only hope for salvation is for Christ to "come again" when the wheat is ready to be harvested. This second coming event is the Latter Rain of the Spirit. It is the same event that the Apostles received in the Upper Room and the same event Paul experienced after being blind and in bed in Damascus for three days. It is also called the Baptism of the Spirit.

At the time the harvest (Latter Rain), Christ heals our spiritual blindness. The Man of Sin is judged and destroyed by the brightness of Christ's appearance. This "appearance" happens within us because Christ heals our spiritual blindness and we can, for the first time, understand the truth of God. After this happens, the Man of Sin is revealed to us (2Thes 2:1-8) and is destroyed. All that remains is the child of God who has just been born. This is the moment of conversion and is when a new child of God is harvested in the Kingdom of Heaven.

Most of the teachings of Christ in the Gospels and the teachings of the apostles are interconnected and teach on the pathway to salvation. It is mostly taught in bits & pieces with a "little here and a little there":

Isa 28: 10-12 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: 11 For with stammering lips and another tongue (Christ's spiritual language) will he speak to this people. 12 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

The pathway to salvation starts with the Early Rain of the Spirit when an unbeliever is "called out" from the world. But because our spiritual blindness is not healed, Satan deceives us and we "fall away" and lose our salvation. We unknowingly eat the leavened bread of Mat 13:33. However, if we are one of Christ's Elect who have been chosen from the foundation of the world, He will "come again" (the second coming of Christ) to us before we physically die and give us the Latter Rain of the Spirit. At that point, we are "born again" and made into a "new vessel".

Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.

I know that probably most of what I presented in this post is new to you so I encourage you to ask questions. I would be happy to try and help you understand more fully.

Joe

Dear FaithWillDo:
Actually, no I'm not reall all that surprised by what you say

Malachi 3:16-17:
16 Then they that feared the Lord spake often one to another: and the Lord hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the Lord, and that thought upon his name.

17 And they shall be mine, saith the Lord of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.

See? Of course, the Lord knew we would be talking about this even now

I don't think any one of us has all the answers, do you? The whole point is that we talk together, as mentioned above, without the need to 'teach' or assume as such, but just glorify God in our seeking Him out. That's all we aim to do.

I think we all get that the tares and the wheat are the difference between the true and the false. My question was more on the timing and exactly who the harvest, though pertaining to the latter, we seem to have mostly reached a general consensus.

I look forward to your reply. Be blessed

 

[SongOnTheWind]

Actually, you are perfect because all of your sins have been washed away. God does not see imperfection when he looks at you. He sees perfection.

What a thrill and a joy to just think that. I mean it. I am so aware of my own imperfections. May His grace, as such, abound to us all. Maybe God needs to do an extra work in me to see it! If so, then let it be so. Keep me in prayer, my friend

 

[Spiritual Jew]

The previous age was an age in which nobody was resurrected. Today we live in an age where the believers are resurrected. Do you not believe this?

No. I'm talking about bodily resurrection here. The dead in Christ will all be bodily resurrected at the future second coming of Christ (1 Cor 15:22-23, 1 Cor 15:50-54, 1 Thess 4:14-17).

Notice that Jesus' statement here was an answer to the Sadducees who asked specifically about marriage after the resurrection. Jesus' answer was to explain that those who are resurrected in the next age (ie. those who are worthy to reach that age and to rise from the dead), those will not marry again for they will be like the angels.

This makes perfect sense both in the context of the question Jesus was answering, and in the context of my understanding of the end of the previous age in which nobody was resurrected. Yes, people are still getting married and dying, but not those who've been resurrected. They neither marry, nor die.

You say what you're saying makes sense to you? Good for you. It makes no sense to me at all. No one but Jesus Christ has yet been bodily resurrected (1 Cor 15:22-23). The dead in Christ will be resurrected at His return, as indicated in passages like 1 Cor 15:22-23, 1 Cor 15:50-54 and 1 Thess 4:14-17. It seems that you're making something simple into something convoluted. In this temporal age, people get married and die. In the eternal age to come, people will not get married and will not die.

Or did it? Do you think we, in this dimension, would be witness to what happens in the heavenly realm? I don't think so.

I don't know what you're trying to say.

I should clarify however that I believe this happens on an individual basis when people die.

There is absolutely no indication of that anywhere. Instead, scripture shows all believers being resurrected at the same time (1 Cor 15:22-23, 1 Cor 15:50-54, 1 Thess 4:14-17, John 5:28-29).

At the point of death they are either put in with the good fish who enjoy eternal life, or discarded into eternal death. I believe this began 2000 years ago and continues to this day. It's an ongoing process, but 2000 years ago there would've been millions if not billions of people who went through this process at that time because prior to that they were all just sleeping in the earth with their ancestors waiting for the last day of the age of death.

You're not reading the passage carefully. Please look at it closely!

Matthew 13:47 “Once again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net that was let down into the lake and caught all kinds of fish. 48 When it was full, the fishermen pulled it up on the shore. Then they sat down and collected the good fish in baskets, but threw the bad away. 49 This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous 50 and throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

You're not acknowledging that this is a one-time event which doesn't happen until the fishing net is full. Can you see that? It's very clear. This is talking about a one-time event that will happen at the end of the age once the fishing net is full (once all people have been determined to be good/righteous or bad/wicked). You have it partially happening on an ongoing basis before the net is full, which blatantly contradicts Matthew 13:48.

Jesus taught that a one-time event will happen at the end of the age when He sends out His angels to separate the wicked from the righteous. That has not yet occurred. The wicked will be thrown "into the blazing furnace". This is talking about the same event as Matthew 25:31-46 and Revelation 20:11 to 21:8.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

I don't see the contradiction at all. The last trumpet did sound. In that hour of which Jesus spoke, all the dead were indeed raised. Remember that before Jesus conquered death, everybody experienced death. Even all the saints who lived in the OT. They died, and they were buried. Those people were all resurrected when the last trumpet sounded on the last day.

What in the world are you talking about? I'm talking about 1 Cor 15:50-54 where Paul talked about a future event when the last trumpet will sound and we all will be changed and will have immortal bodies. You seem to be trying to say that the last trumpet sounded already before Paul even wrote 1 Cor 15:50-54.

Since then, none of us have to experience death. You say scripture doesn't teach an immediate resurrection? I disagree. I believe Jesus is teaching it right here:

John 11:25
Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die;

And here...

John 11:26
and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?”

And here

John 8:51
I tell you the truth, anyone who obeys my teaching will never die!

And here

Matthew 16:28
Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom

And here

John 8:52
you say that whoever obeys your word will never taste death.

The only way to never experience death is to be resurrected immediately upon death.

Are you even thinking about what you're saying? If you need to be resurrected immediately upon death then that means you died. Think about it. Those passages are all talking about not having part in the second death that is referred to in Revelation 20:14-15. They have nothing to do with not physically/bodily dying. Being resurrected immediately upon bodily death wouldn't change the fact that you died. Have you never thought about that? And, again, you're contradicting all the scriptures which indicate that all believers will be resurrected at the same time.

Otherwise, if we have to another thousand years (or whatever) for the resurrection then we will indeed taste death and Jesus would be wrong. I don't think he was wrong.

I think you are the one who is wrong here. Jesus was, of course, right, but you're not understanding what He was saying. He wouldn't say something that would contradict other scripture the way your interpretation of His words does.

 

[Freedm]

No. I'm talking about bodily resurrection here. The dead in Christ will all be bodily resurrected at the future second coming of Christ (1 Cor 15:22-23, 1 Cor 15:50-54, 1 Thess 4:14-17).

When you say "bodily resurrection", what do you mean exactly? Do you not believe that after the resurrection we will have spiritual bodies? Like the angels? Or do you believe there's a difference between a spirit and a spiritual body?

 

[Freedm]

You say what you're saying makes sense to you? Good for you. It makes no sense to me at all. No one but Jesus Christ has yet been bodily resurrected (1 Cor 15:22-23). The dead in Christ will be resurrected at His return, as indicated in passages like 1 Cor 15:22-23, 1 Cor 15:50-54 and 1 Thess 4:14-17. It seems that you're making something simple into something convoluted. In this temporal age, people get married and die. In the eternal age to come, people will not get married and will not die.

Let me try again. Jesus wasn't talking simply about those of us living in this age, but he was talking specifically about those who've been resurrected in this age. Remember, the Sadducees were asking about those who are resurrected, so Jesus' answer was about those who are resurrected.

So, yes although you are living in this age you marry and die, but those who've been resurrected in this age do not marry or die. This is what Jesus was talking about, and therefore, your example does not contradict my position.

 

[Freedm]

I don't know what you're trying to say.

What I'm saying is you seem to be under the impression that this grand resurrection will be visible to all of us alive on earth and would be visible on CNN. I'm saying the resurrection happens in the spiritual realm which we do not see. So the simple fact that you haven't witnessed it, nor read about it in the history books, does not mean it didn't happen. It just means it wasn't witnessed.

 

[Freedm]

I should clarify however that I believe this happens on an individual basis when people die.

There is absolutely no indication of that anywhere. Instead, scripture shows all believers being resurrected at the same time (1 Cor 15:22-23, 1 Cor 15:50-54, 1 Thess 4:14-17, John 5:28-29).

Granted, there's no clear scripture that says "everyone will be immediately resurrected upon death", but as I pointed out before, I believe that's exactly what Jesus was telling us in all those other examples. He didn't use the word "resurrection" but he did say we would not taste death. The only way that makes sense, is if we live in our new heavenly bodies as soon as these earthly bodies die. There can be no time in between, otherwise we would taste death and Jesus said we wouldn't. It's simple logic really.

All your examples show all the dead believers being resurrected at the same time, and yes that is exactly what happened in 70 AD. I don't dispute any of that. Maybe you're still not understanding what I'm saying; imagine this scenario:

1. The day before the resurrection in 70 AD, there are millions of dead people sleeping in the dust.
2. On the day of the resurrection, all those dead people are resurrected. So there are no more dead people.
3. Today, there are still no dead people because as soon as you "die", you live.

Let me ask you this; what do you think happens to you the moment that you die?

 

[Freedm]

You seem to be trying to say that the last trumpet sounded already before Paul even wrote 1 Cor 15:50-54.

No, Paul wrote 1 Corinthians before 70 AD, so the trumpet sounded after he wrote it.

Are you even thinking about what you're saying? If you need to be resurrected immediately upon death then that means you died. Think about it. Those passages are all talking about not having part in the second death that is referred to in Revelation 20:14-15. They have nothing to do with not physically/bodily dying. Being resurrected immediately upon bodily death wouldn't change the fact that you died. Have you never thought about that?

I'm not sure why you're having such a hard time with this. Of course it's hard to describe the process of dying which does not result in death, but that's exactly what Jesus described. In order to explain it I have to use the word "die" as in, as soon as you die you are resurrected back to life. So in that sense, you could say that you died, but the point is that you never exist in a state of death because you move from one life right into the next. How else would I explain it?

Jesus also said "you will never die" and he said "you will live, even though you die" and he said "you will never taste death". He said "you will never die", and yet, as you rightly point out, you still have to die in order to be resurrected. So strictly speaking you could say that Jesus' statements are contradictory, just as you're accusing me of making contradictory statements, but how else do you explain the process without using the word "die"?

 

[Marilyn C]

I simply disagree.

I don't advocate for the Word of God being up for grabs, but I what I do stress to be of absolute importance is to be led of the Holy Spirit in His Word. As it is written therein, He will guide us into all truth.

Be blessed.

Yes I am so glad you see the Holy Spirit as important in being led in His word. Then we must remember that we are not perfect in hearing the Holy Spirit, and that what is written in God`s word is above what we think we may have heard from the Holy Spirit. It could be our own imaginings, or an error in our theology, or some other `spirit` trying to deceive us. Thus God`s word is paramount.

 

[FaithWillDo]

Dear FaithWillDo:
Actually, no I'm not reall all that surprised by what you say

Malachi 3:16-17:
16 Then they that feared the Lord spake often one to another: and the Lord hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the Lord, and that thought upon his name.

17 And they shall be mine, saith the Lord of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.

See? Of course, the Lord knew we would be talking about this even now

I don't think any one of us has all the answers, do you? The whole point is that we talk together, as mentioned above, without the need to 'teach' or assume as such, but just glorify God in our seeking Him out. That's all we aim to do.

I think we all get that the tares and the wheat are the difference between the true and the false. My question was more on the timing and exactly who the harvest, though pertaining to the latter, we seem to have mostly reached a general consensus.

I look forward to your reply. Be blessed

Dear SongOnTheWind,
I used to teach End-time prophecy in my last church. That all ended in October, 2005 when the Lord suddenly came to me as a thief in the night and healed my spiritual blindness. That was when I received the Latter Rain of the Spirit. I knew nothing about it from scripture until after it occurred to me. It was totally unexpected.

My testimony from that time is posted in my profile if you have an interest in reading it.

At the time of my conversion, Christ healed my spiritual blindness. I didn't even know that I was blind before but after I received my new vision, I was shocked to learn that nearly everything that I thought was "truth" was actually a lie from Satan. As Mat 13:33 says, the whole loaf of bread is leavened, not just part of it. We all eat from this loaf after receiving the Early Rain of the Spirit after we are first "called out". The leaven in the loaf is "hidden" and those who eat it, don't know that it is in there.

Scripture says that we all live (are saved) by every word that comes from the mouth of God and not just from "bread":

Matt 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

That includes the evil:

Lam 3:38 Out of the mouth of the Most High doth not there proceed evil and good?

The evil words that we live by are:

Mat 12:43-45 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none. 44 Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished. 45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation

Evil spirits represent Satan's false truth. Since we remain spiritually blind after receiving the Early Rain, we cannot replace our worldly false beliefs with God's truth. One "evil spirit" leaves but comes back with seven more (the spirit of anti-Christ) since our house remains void of God's truth. Now, instead of "one evil spirit" within us, we now have EIGHT. The number "eight" spiritually represents a new spiritual condition. Our new spiritual condition in this case is "worse than the first". Paul calls this worsened spiritual condition the Man of Sin.

After the new believer devolves into a Man of Sin, their deadly head wound that came from the sword of Christ at the time of the Early Rain is healed. The blow by the Sword of Christ was intended to slay our carnal nature (Old man) but because of our spiritual blindness and Satan’s deceptions, the wound is healed and we become worse than before (Man of Sin).

Rev 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

As a result, we are still represented in the Seven-Headed Beast of Revelation. In case you are unaware, the Beast is a symbol for mankind in our spiritually flawed and carnally minded condition. After our deadly head wound is healed, we are truly "fallen away" and have become a Man of Sin who follows the ways of Satan instead of Christ. "Falling away" to "works" is the one and only sin that leads to our spiritual death (1John 5:16). From this death, we cannot be renewed by repentance.

Heb 6:4-6 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

The Doctrine of Free Will is the most common belief that causes us to "fall away". We use this false belief system to justify why unbelievers are worthy of "hell" and why we are not. We falsely believe that we are wiser or smarter or simply less evil than those who reject Christ. And because of this belief, we take credit for making the right "choice" to accept Christ. But in truth, the credit is not ours. It was Christ's work within us that caused us to accept Him as "Lord". In our spiritually flawed and carnally minded condition we have from birth, no man will even seek to know God (Rom 3:10-11, Rom 8:7), much less accept Him as Lord. Christ must come to us with the Early and Latter Rain before we can be saved. It is 100% His work within us that saves us.

More on the Latter Rain...

The Latter Rain is the same event as the "second coming of Christ" and the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. It commences the Day of the Lord which lasts until His "thousand year reign" within us comes to an end. That reign is over the destruction of our carnal nature (Old Man) and it can last several years.

The Day of the Lord is an earthshaking spiritual event. Spiritually speaking, there were trumpets, thunder and lightning when Christ appeared to me the second time. The sun was darkened and the moon turned to blood. In other words, I no longer received my truth (light) from this world because I could now "see". I was finally receiving my truth directly from Christ because the scriptures opened up to me. Now, after 15 years of study, there isn't much in the New Testament that I don't correctly understand. That's not bragging, that is just what happens once Christ gives a believer "eyes that can see". Now my understanding of scripture is not contradicted by any other scripture. The mainstream understanding of scripture (light from the sun and moon) is full of contradictions. But the carnal mind of man is quite amazing and can usually find a way to twist scripture enough so that those contradictions fade away.

As I said in my post to you, the Latter Rain is a spiritual event. That means it happens "within" us. It cannot be witnessed with human eyes. When Christ comes to us, He only comes spiritually. He will NEVER come visibly to this earth again where He can be seen by mankind.

In this age, He only comes THREE times. The first time is when He comes to an unbeliever with the Early Rain of the Spirit. The second time is when He comes to a chosen believer with the Latter Rain of the Spirit. The third time is when He comes to resurrect us from the grave. None of those returns can be seen with human eyes.

Note this verse:

Acts 3:20-21 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: WHOM THE HEAVEN MUST RECEIVE until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Until "the times of the restitution of all things" Christ will only appear to us "spiritually" (meaning between our ears so to speak, He remains in "heaven"). All the outward understanding of End-time prophecy will never happen. The Book of Revelation is the "unveiling of Christ" within us. It first started being fulfilled "within" those in the upper room nearly 2000 years ago and has been reoccurring down through this age within all of His chosen Elect (the First-Fruits of His harvest) since that time.

These verses apply:

Rev 1:4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne...

Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Christ's second coming is a reoccurring event and it occurs at the "end of the age" within His Elect when they are harvested into the Kingdom of Heaven. It is at that time when a believer is "born again". It is said to occur at the end of the age because that is the time of the end of our old vessel. After that vessel is destroyed, God no longer views us a being a part of mankind. We are now a new creature, a child of God who dwells in heaven.

For the Elect, the end of the ages comes upon them now in this age and they don't have to wait until the actual end of the final age when most of mankind will be saved.

1Cor 10:11 Now all these things happened to them as types, and have been written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages are come.

The Book of Revelation says (at the time it was written), that the time is AT HAND and ALL the seals are open. The seals were never sealed, and they were not waiting for some future date to be opened as most believe:

Rev 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for THE TIME IS AT HAND.

Rev 22:10 And he saith unto me, SEAL NOT the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for THE TIME IS AT HAND.

Since the "time is at hand", Christ's Elect do not have to wait for their salvation. Christ is, was and will be coming to His Elect all throughout this present age.

Matthew chapter 24 is one of the great End-time chapters in scripture. And like the Book of Revelation, those events are unsealed and they were first completed "within" the believers in the upper room nearly 2000 years ago. As Christ said:

Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

The generation that He was speaking to did not pass away before all those events were fulfilled and they have continued to be fulfilled within the lives of each of His Elect since that time. Christ "is, was and will be coming" to each of His Elect in this age and He will harvest them into the Kingdom of Heaven.

If you have any questions, please ask. One never knows when Christ might "suddenly" appear.

Joe

 

[Marilyn C]

With all due respect, this is nonsense. There is only one people in God's kingdom. Stop ignoring what the Bible so clearly teaches. God has joined us together with Israel to become one group.

Ephesians 2:11-16
Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision” (which is done in the body by human hands)— 12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace, 16 and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility.

Hi Freedm,

I can understand why you think that, and I agree that in the Body there is no Jew nor gentile etc. However God has NOT cast off Israel and also has purposes for the nations.

Note WE are NOT the center of God`s word, it is for us to read and learn but it is NOT all about us. The center is Christ, His character and His purposes.