The Harvest At The End Of The Age

SongOnTheWind

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What you have written are symbols and types. If we start going into so called layers then everything in God`s word is up for grabs, everyone`s opinions. And that is so, very, very dangerous as it makes God`s word null and void.

The Body of Christ does NOT share Israel inheritance. They will rule the nations of the world, we do not. We are all in God`s great kingdom, but we have different promises to where we will serve and rule.

Thus no, the harvest spoken about in Matt. 13: 36 - 43 is not for us, but for Israel and those Gentiles who turn to God in the trib, and millennium. Notice `at the end of the age,` for we, the Body of Christ are long gone before that time.
I simply disagree.

I don't advocate for the Word of God being up for grabs, but I what I do stress to be of absolute importance is to be led of the Holy Spirit in His Word. As it is written therein, He will guide us into all truth.

Be blessed.
 
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SongOnTheWind

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It's very important to understand that the word translated as "world" in your example is actually aiōnos, which means "age". (The KJV is a poor translation for our modern times as the old English words no longer mean the same thing as they did when the KJV was written and so it leads to a lot of misunderstanding) This is important because it proves that this parable refers to an event in our past, when the last age ended.

This parable is not talking about the end of the world. It's talking about the end of the age, which took place in 70 AD. It was the end of the age of darkness, because Jesus came into the world to be a light unto the world. We are currently living in the age of light.

When the age of darkness came to an end, the harvest took place, which means all the believers were granted eternal life in the form of resurrection. Those who were already dead were resurrected into heaven, and those who were still alive were promised that they would never experience death as they would be resurrected immediately upon death. In other words, during the age of darkness, people died and returned to the dust of the earth, but now we live even though we die. That is the harvest; removing the people of God from darkness, and granting them eternal life.
Agreed. This is the conclusion I have come to during the course of this discussion also :)
 
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jeffweedaman

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According to Paul the gospel had already been preached to all nations during his day.

Colossians 1:23
if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.

Did it spread to the Americas , Australia , NZ etc ?
The newly discovered world,
 
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SongOnTheWind

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Did it spread to the Americas , Australia , NZ etc ?
The newly discovered world,
Good question, however it remains there in scripture. Maybe Paul was speaking prophetically.
 
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Freedm

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Did it spread to the Americas , Australia , NZ etc ?
The newly discovered world,
You have a choice. Either accept what he said, and admit that you have a misunderstanding. Or lean on your own understanding and ignore what Paul said.
 
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Freedm

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Did it spread to the Americas , Australia , NZ etc ?
The newly discovered world,
Maybe it's time to go back to what Jesus said in Matthew 24:14.

Matthew 24:14
And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

The problem is, once again, the English translation. In this case the word translated as "world" does not mean the entire world. The word is oikoumené and it means the entire Roman world.

Original Word: οἰκουμένη, ης, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: oikoumené
Phonetic Spelling: (oy-kou-men'-ay)
Definition: the inhabited earth
Usage: (properly: the land that is being inhabited, the land in a state of habitation), the inhabited world, that is, the Roman world, for all outside it was regarded as of no account.


Jesus never said the gospel had to be preached to the Americas or to New Zealand for the end to come. He said it had to be preached to the entire Roman world. And it had, so the end he spoke of came almost 2000 years ago.
 
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Freedm

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One more thing, when Jesus was speaking of "the end" in Matthew 24:14, it was in response to the disciples asking "when will be the end of the age"? (Matthew 24:3)

So Jesus' answer referred to the end of the age, not the end of the world and since we know that age ended almost 2000 years ago, we know the end has come.
 
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Freedm

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Did it spread to the Americas , Australia , NZ etc ?
The newly discovered world,
Look, here's another example of Paul saying the gospel had been spread to the end of the earth.

Romans 10:17-19
Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ. 18 But I ask: Did they not hear? Of course they did:

Their voice has gone out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world.


Did their voice reach the Americas, Australia or New Zealand? No, but they reached the ends of the Roman world and that was the criteria Jesus had given them.
 
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jeffweedaman

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You have a choice. Either accept what he said, and admit that you have a misunderstanding. Or lean on your own understanding and ignore what Paul said.

I agree that the Gospel was preached to the known world at that time.

I believe that God wants to reach out to all peoples before the end comes, Rev 10:11 , 14:6
 
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jeffweedaman

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One more thing, when Jesus was speaking of "the end" in Matthew 24:14, it was in response to the disciples asking "when will be the end of the age"? (Matthew 24:3)

So Jesus' answer referred to the end of the age, not the end of the world and since we know that age ended almost 2000 years ago, we know the end has come.


The harvest is the end of the age, when the wicked are taken from among the righteous and thrown into eternal fire.
Has that happened yet?


Matt 13
37 And He said, “The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man, 38 and the field is the world; and as for the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the evil one; 39 and the enemy who sowed them is the devil, and the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are angels. 40 So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, 42 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.
 
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jeffweedaman

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If that was the case then we righteous ones should have inherited Glorification in the Kingdom that was prepared from the foundation of the world....Clearly has not happened yet.

The wicked are clearly thrown into the fire on the day we are Glorified at his coming.


Matt 25
31 “But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; 33 and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.

34 “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.

41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;



2thess 1
3 We ought always to give thanks to God for you, brethren, as is only fitting, because your faith is greatly enlarged, and the love of each one of you toward one another grows ever greater; 4 therefore, we ourselves speak proudly of you among the churches of God for your perseverance and faith in the midst of all your persecutions and afflictions which you endure. 5 This is a plain indication of God’s righteous judgment so that you will be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which indeed you are suffering. 6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, 8 dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed—for our testimony to you was believed.
 
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Timtofly

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Maybe it's time to go back to what Jesus said in Matthew 24:14.

Matthew 24:14
And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

The problem is, once again, the English translation. In this case the word translated as "world" does not mean the entire world. The word is oikoumené and it means the entire Roman world.

Original Word: οἰκουμένη, ης, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: oikoumené
Phonetic Spelling: (oy-kou-men'-ay)
Definition: the inhabited earth
Usage: (properly: the land that is being inhabited, the land in a state of habitation), the inhabited world, that is, the Roman world, for all outside it was regarded as of no account.


Jesus never said the gospel had to be preached to the Americas or to New Zealand for the end to come. He said it had to be preached to the entire Roman world. And it had, so the end he spoke of came almost 2000 years ago.
The whole earth was inhabited. It went out further than the Roman empire. Why would anyone make such an illogical conclusion? It changed even Hinduism. Did it turn the whole world to Christ. No, but it did go out. Still not proof that the Second Coming was in the first century.
 
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SongOnTheWind

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I don't think the second coming happened just yet, otherwise everything would truly have been restored by now, and Jesus would be physically and very famously ruling from the new Jerusalem in this very moment. But I do think Paul was referring the extent of his world in his time, that seems to fit what he speaks in the scripture passage.
 
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Freedm

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If that was the case then we righteous ones should have inherited Glorification in the Kingdom that was prepared from the foundation of the world....Clearly has not happened yet.
It has happened. It clearly has not happened the way you imagine it, but you're imagining it wrong.

Don't you believe that when you die you will be reborn into a heavenly body immediately, thereby never having to experience death? Is this not inheriting the glory of the kingdom? Eternal life in a heavenly body? If not this, then what?
 
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Freedm

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The whole earth was inhabited. It went out further than the Roman empire. Why would anyone make such an illogical conclusion? It changed even Hinduism. Did it turn the whole world to Christ. No, but it did go out. Still not proof that the Second Coming was in the first century.
It doesn't matter if the whole world was inhabited. What matters is what Jesus was referring to, and he was referring to the Roman world. I'm sorry if that doesn't jive with what you've always believed. I guess you learned something today.

Oh, and just in case you think I'm making it up, here's the source: Strong's Greek: 3625. οἰκουμένη (oikoumené) -- the inhabited earth (biblehub.com)

And here's the lexicon for Matthew 24:14: Matthew 24:14 Lexicon: "This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come. (biblehub.com)
 
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Freedm

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I don't think the second coming happened just yet, otherwise everything would truly have been restored by now, and Jesus would be physically and very famously ruling from the new Jerusalem in this very moment. But I do think Paul was referring the extent of his world in his time, that seems to fit what he speaks in the scripture passage.
If I imagined his return the way you imagine it, then I would have to agree with you.

But I don't believe Jesus will physically rule from Jerusalem, that city in the middle east, the way you imagine it. I believe we, the body of Christ, are the new Jerusalem. The new Jerusalem is a spiritual city, not a physical one. We are the temple now, so Jesus doesn't need a physical building from which to rule. He rules in our hearts and he rules today, as he's sitting at the right hand of the father and all authority and power has been given to him. This is what scripture tells us.

Don't make the same mistake the Jews made in the first century, believing their messiah would be a king to lead their physical army to victory in battle. No, Jesus is a spiritual king, and we are his spiritual kingdom. They didn't understand that, but we have the advantage of hind sight and the teachings of Paul and Peter.
 
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SongOnTheWind

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If I imagined his return the way you imagine it, then I would have to agree with you.

But I don't believe Jesus will physically rule from Jerusalem, that city in the middle east, the way you imagine it. I believe we, the body of Christ, are the new Jerusalem. The new Jerusalem is a spiritual city, not a physical one. We are the temple now, so Jesus doesn't need a physical building from which to rule. He rules in our hearts and he rules today, as he's sitting at the right hand of the father and all authority and power has been given to him. This is what scripture tells us.

Don't make the same mistake the Jews made in the first century, believing their messiah would be a king to lead their physical army to victory in battle. No, Jesus is a spiritual king, and we are his spiritual kingdom. They didn't understand that, but we have the advantage of hind sight and the teachings of Paul and Peter.
Then you also realise that the epistles say this:

1 John 3:2
Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.

Same apostle that fell down as though dead at the feet of Jesus because He certainly did not appear to him the same way he had seen Him on earth the three and a half years he spent with Him in ministry.

How are we like Him now? Just how?

I believe Paul when he says that the good work He has begun in us He is faithful to complete. He will, one day, when we see Him face to face :twohearts::twohearts::twohearts: I cannot wait.
 
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Freedm

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Then you also realise that the epistles say this:

1 John 3:2
Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.

Same apostle that fell down as though dead at the feet of Jesus because He certainly did not appear to him the same way he had seen Him on earth the three and a half years he spent with Him in ministry.

How are we like Him now? Just how?

I believe Paul when he says that the good work He has begun in us He is faithful to complete. He will, one day, when we see Him face to face :twohearts::twohearts::twohearts: I cannot wait.
I believe we are like him now in the sense that we have eternal life already. Physically we will be like him when we pass from this life to the next. ie. when we are reborn, into our spiritual bodies, as described by Paul in 1 Corinthians 15.

I know it's hard to see, impossible even, because while we are in our earthly bodies, we are nothing like him at least in the physical sense, but the point is that our glory has already been rewarded to those of us who believe in him so we are guaranteed a heavenly body. This is not something that we wait for in our distant future. Jesus brought with him our rewards when he returned on the clouds in 70 AD, and that reward was life. He defeated death so that we won't have to experience it, and he shared that power with us in 70 AD. That was when everything changed. That was the main event, and sadly never even touched on in Sunday school.

Since 70 AD we no longer experience death. We only pass from one life into the next. That's why Jesus said you will live, even though you die. Prior to 70 AD, men experienced death. Even righteous men. That's why the old testament is full of the phrase "he slept with his fathers", but since 70 AD that no longer happens. We no longer sleep in the dust of the earth because we have received our reward, which is eternal life.
 
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SongOnTheWind

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I believe we are like him now in the sense that we have eternal life already. Physically we will be like him when we pass from this life to the next. ie. when we are reborn, into our spiritual bodies, as described by Paul in 1 Corinthians 15.

I know it's hard to see, impossible even, because while we are in our earthly bodies, we are nothing like him at least in the physical sense, but the point is that our glory has already been rewarded to those of us who believe in him so we are guaranteed a heavenly body. This is not something that we wait for in our distant future. Jesus brought with him our rewards when he returned on the clouds in 70 AD, and that reward was life. He defeated death so that we won't have to experience it, and he shared that power with us in 70 AD. That was when everything changed. That was the main event, and sadly never even touched on in Sunday school.

Since 70 AD we no longer experience death. We only pass from one life into the next. That's why Jesus said you will live, even though you die. Prior to 70 AD, men experienced death. Even righteous men. That's why the old testament is full of the phrase "he slept with his fathers", but since 70 AD that no longer happens. We no longer sleep in the dust of the earth because we have received our reward, which is eternal life.
The word that Paul actually uses is 'perfected', which includes being completed. I know I am not perfect yet.

When did He come back in AD 70? Did every eye see Him? How did history bury it if every eye did?

I think I understand why you see this the way you do, but those questions will always be there for me.

My quarrel (if any at all :p) is with the idea, not with you. Just trying to understand where you are coming from :)
 
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