Works Salvation?

[Light of the East]

When I read certain posts from Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox, I find myself wondering "How is this not working to obtain salvation" rather than salvation being a free gift which we then work with to strive towards Christlikeness?

When I see the RC church saying "Do the first five Fridays and you are assured of making heaven," or an Orthodox saint saying "Do not believe in Universal Salvation ** because it will keep you from working for your salvation" I can't help but think that this contradicts the idea of a free and gratuitous salvation.

It seems to me (and I most certainly don't understand this fully) that all have been saved. As Fr. Matt has said, all will be with Christ, but not all will find it enjoyable. This means to me that Christ's redemption has saved everyone, but we are called upon to enter into that union of salvation with Christ and then cooperate with the Holy Spirit in our theosis. Those that don't lose out - big time.

But the wording of certain people in the RC and Orthodox church makes it sound like one is striving to get salvation rather than striving to take the free gift which is already given to all and make the most of it.

Thoughts?

** This is not an attempt to discuss Universal Salvation. Please don't even go there.

 

[HTacianas]

When I read certain posts from Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox, I find myself wondering "How is this not working to obtain salvation" rather than salvation being a free gift which we then work with to strive towards Christlikeness?

When I see the RC church saying "Do the first five Fridays and you are assured of making heaven," or an Orthodox saint saying "Do not believe in Universal Salvation ** because it will keep you from working for your salvation" I can't help but think that this contradicts the idea of a free and gratuitous salvation.

It seems to me (and I most certainly don't understand this fully) that all have been saved. As Fr. Matt has said, all will be with Christ, but not all will find it enjoyable. This means to me that Christ's redemption has saved everyone, but we are called upon to enter into that union of salvation with Christ and then cooperate with the Holy Spirit in our theosis. Those that don't lose out - big time.

But the wording of certain people in the RC and Orthodox church makes it sound like one is striving to get salvation rather than striving to take the free gift which is already given to all and make the most of it.

Thoughts?

** This is not an attempt to discuss Universal Salvation. Please don't even go there.

Salvation is indeed a free gift, offered by God to all, without works. But what do we mean by that? Protestants oftentimes based their entire soteriology (if we can use a two dollar word) on Ephesians 2:8-9:

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,

Eph 2:9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

But in doing so, they skip over Ephesians 2:1-7. If you begin at Ephesians 2:1 and read through, you'll see that the writer means that they have entered into salvation without prior works. He even points out all the immoralities the Ephesians had been wrapped up in, but God saved them anyway. Obviously it was not a reward for anything they had done. It was the gift of God. It was not of themselves. Protestant soteriology then ends on the erroneous idea that salvation itself ends at that point. But in believing that salvation is some one time event that occurs in a single moment, we need to overlook the words of Jesus when he said:

Mat 24:13 “But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

But endures in what? The writer of Hebrews says:

Heb 10:36 Patient endurance is what you need now, so that you will continue to do God's will. Then you will receive all that he has promised.

It says the we are to "continue to do God's will". "Do". It is active, as in do good works. All those things Jesus commanded us to do, just as the writer of 1 John and the Revelation tell us:

1Jo 5:3 Loving God means keeping his commandments...

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was angry at the woman and declared war against the rest of her children—all who keep God's commandments and maintain their testimony for Jesus.

We can continue this discussion as long as we need to.

 

[d taylor]

When I read certain posts from Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox, I find myself wondering "How is this not working to obtain salvation" rather than salvation being a free gift which we then work with to strive towards Christlikeness?

When I see the RC church saying "Do the first five Fridays and you are assured of making heaven," or an Orthodox saint saying "Do not believe in Universal Salvation ** because it will keep you from working for your salvation" I can't help but think that this contradicts the idea of a free and gratuitous salvation.

It seems to me (and I most certainly don't understand this fully) that all have been saved. As Fr. Matt has said, all will be with Christ, but not all will find it enjoyable. This means to me that Christ's redemption has saved everyone, but we are called upon to enter into that union of salvation with Christ and then cooperate with the Holy Spirit in our theosis. Those that don't lose out - big time.

But the wording of certain people in the RC and Orthodox church makes it sound like one is striving to get salvation rather than striving to take the free gift which is already given to all and make the most of it.

Thoughts?

** This is not an attempt to discuss Universal Salvation. Please don't even go there.

I could add a lot of writing here, but instead i will post this link to Grace Evangelical Society that is all they do, is study what the Bible states is required by a person to receive God's free gift of Eternal Life.

Grace Evangelical Society​

 

[HTacianas]

I could add a lot of writing here, but instead i will post this link to Grace Evangelical Society that is all they do, is study what the Bible states is required by a person to receive God's free gift of Eternal Life.

Grace Evangelical Society​

Keep in mind that I do not doubt the sincerity of your beliefs, or the beliefs of the writers of the website you linked to. But since this is on topic as far as the original post goes, I would like to pint something out to you. According to the website:

"everlasting life is a free gift that cannot be lost, received by faith alone in Christ alone, apart from works of any kind"

Let's compare that statement to Romans:

Rom 11:22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.

If, as the website claims, the gift cannot be lost, why does the writer to the Romans warn them that they will be cut off -just as the nonbelievers were cut off- if they do not continue in God's goodness?

It's a very simple question.

 

[Rescued One]

I believe that the gift of salvation is gift, not an opportunity. Works result from having been given that gift. If we have been given saving faith by God, Satan can't steal us from him. A gift isn't a reward for something I decided to do.

"for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose."
Philippians 2:13

Apart from God, nothing will be accomplished! Sometimes He causes the unbelieving to do His will (common grace: Pharaoh let His people go).

 

[Rescued One]

Keep in mind that I do not doubt the sincerity of your beliefs, or the beliefs of the writers of the website you linked to. But since this is on topic as far as the original post goes, I would like to pint something out to you. According to the website:

"everlasting life is a free gift that cannot be lost, received by faith alone in Christ alone, apart from works of any kind"

Let's compare that statement to Romans:

Rom 11:22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.

There are different degrees of punishment. However, the sheep follow the Shepherd.

John 10
4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice. 5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers. 6 This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them.

 

[Ivan Hlavanda]

39 One of the criminals who were hanged railed at him, saying, “Are you not the Christ? Save yourself and us!” 40 But the other rebuked him, saying, “Do you not fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? 41 And we indeed justly, for we are receiving the due reward of our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong.” 42 And he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” 43 And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

I think this answers everything you need to know about salvation. Every human being is either one of these two thief. Both thief deserve to die and go to hell, but one repents (verse 41) and calls Jesus the Lord (“Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.”). Jesus in His grace saved Him and promised Him paradise. No good deeds, nor anything else, but grace of Jesus.

 

[HTacianas]

There are different degrees of punishment. However, the sheep follow the Shepherd.

John 10
4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice. 5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers. 6 This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them.

What degree of punishment did those receive who were cut off?

 

[Light of the East]

ORTHODOX REPLIES ONLY!!!

PROTESTANTS PLEASE LEAVE! I AM NOT INTERESTED IN YOUR IDEAS!!!

 

[Light of the East]

Salvation is indeed a free gift, offered by God to all, without works. But what do we mean by that? Protestants oftentimes based their entire soteriology (if we can use a two dollar word) on Ephesians 2:8-9:

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,

Eph 2:9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

But in doing so, they skip over Ephesians 2:1-7. If you begin at Ephesians 2:1 and read through, you'll see that the writer means that they have entered into salvation without prior works. He even points out all the immoralities the Ephesians had been wrapped up in, but God saved them anyway. Obviously it was not a reward for anything they had done. It was the gift of God. It was not of themselves. Protestant soteriology then ends on the erroneous idea that salvation itself ends at that point. But in believing that salvation is some one time event that occurs in a single moment, we need to overlook the words of Jesus when he said:

Mat 24:13 “But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

But endures in what? The writer of Hebrews says:

Heb 10:36 Patient endurance is what you need now, so that you will continue to do God's will. Then you will receive all that he has promised.

It says the we are to "continue to do God's will". "Do". It is active, as in do good works. All those things Jesus commanded us to do, just as the writer of 1 John and the Revelation tell us:

1Jo 5:3 Loving God means keeping his commandments...

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was angry at the woman and declared war against the rest of her children—all who keep God's commandments and maintain their testimony for Jesus.

We can continue this discussion as long as we need to.

Okay. I'm still not understanding your response. My OP set forth the question that it seems that to obtain salvation, one must do certain WORKS. Rosaries, prayers, fasting, etc. I remember reading an Orthodox site where the writer spoke of a monk who fell away and "lost his salvation." It seems very works oriented rather than of free grace.

It seems to me that what one can lose is one's rewards in the age to come. Jesus and St. Paul both spoke about the rewards and crowns which await those who continue in the faith. My point was that the way things are worded by certain people, it seems that salvation itself is dependent upon our works, rather than the rewards we get being part of the works we do in faith here.

Am I making sense?

 

[GOD Shines Forth!]

nv

 

[HTacianas]

Okay. I'm still not understanding your response. My OP set forth the question that it seems that to obtain salvation, one must do certain WORKS. Rosaries, prayers, fasting, etc. I remember reading an Orthodox site where the writer spoke of a monk who fell away and "lost his salvation." It seems very works oriented rather than of free grace.

It seems to me that what one can lose is one's rewards in the age to come. Jesus and St. Paul both spoke about the rewards and crowns which await those who continue in the faith. My point was that the way things are worded by certain people, it seems that salvation itself is dependent upon our works, rather than the rewards we get being part of the works we do in faith here.

Am I making sense?

Yes, you are making sense. But again, salvation is not a single, one-time event. We do enter into salvation as a one-time event, and it is by grace through faith. But that salvation must be maintained, for lack of a better term. And it is in fact possible to fall away into condemnation. One can fall into condemnation through gross sin or apostasy. Else we would not be warned. Against willful sin:

Heb 10:26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,

Heb 10:27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries.

That doesn't mean that we'll lose some "attaboy" we may pick up along the way, but that we will be met with "fiery indignation" and receive the punishment of "adversaries".

And again on apostasy:

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit,

...

Heb 6:6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance,

...

Heb 6:8 ...whose end is to be burned.

Again, that doesn't say we'll lose some reward or another, but says explicitly what becomes of those who fall away.

Now if you can make something else out of all that, and explain it in simple terms, I'm willing to listen.

 

[Maverick9]

To become saved one must stop sinning. After God sees your not sinning he will reward your struggles with salvation.

 

[Rescued One]

ORTHODOX REPLIES ONLY!!!

PROTESTANTS PLEASE LEAVE! I AM NOT INTERESTED IN YOUR IDEAS!!!

I'm very, very sorry. I have trouble/confusion sorting the fine print:
Works Salvation?

When I go to the top of the thread I don't see that I'm in the Orthodox section. I've made this mistake many times. I'm not trying to tell Catholics and Orthodox what to believe. I look at the http:// and expect to see an identification of where I'm posting. I really don't want to keep making this mistake. Please forgive me.

 

[d taylor]

Keep in mind that I do not doubt the sincerity of your beliefs, or the beliefs of the writers of the website you linked to. But since this is on topic as far as the original post goes, I would like to pint something out to you. According to the website:

"everlasting life is a free gift that cannot be lost, received by faith alone in Christ alone, apart from works of any kind"

Let's compare that statement to Romans:

Rom 11:22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.

If, as the website claims, the gift cannot be lost, why does the writer to the Romans warn them that they will be cut off -just as the nonbelievers were cut off- if they do not continue in God's goodness?

It's a very simple question.

​

 

[prodromos]

I'm very, very sorry. I have trouble/confusion sorting the fine print:
Works Salvation?

When I go to the top of the thread I don't see that I'm in the Orthodox section. I've made this mistake many times. I'm not trying to tell Catholics and Orthodox what to believe. I look at the http:// and expect to see an identification of where I'm posting. I really don't want to keep making this mistake. Please forgive me.

This is a subforum of the Eastern Orthodox community forum. We recognise that people who click through from the New Threads section will often miss that, so we don't generally hit the report button. We do actually have a subforum where people may respectfully debate issues they may have with the Orthodox faith, but this one isn't it

 

[Rescued One]

This is a subforum of the Eastern Orthodox community forum. We recognise that people who click through from the New Threads section will often miss that, so we don't generally hit the report button. We do actually have a subforum where people may respectfully debate issues they may have with the Orthodox faith, but this one isn't it

Thanks. I don't want to debate E. O. or R. C. Yes, I look at the New Threads section and it doesn't tell us if a topic is for E.O. or R. C. I'm old and forgetful about stuff on the computer.

 

[ArmyMatt]

But the wording of certain people in the RC and Orthodox church makes it sound like one is striving to get salvation rather than striving to take the free gift which is already given to all and make the most of it.

what's the difference between these two points?

 

[All4Christ]

When I read certain posts from Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox, I find myself wondering "How is this not working to obtain salvation" rather than salvation being a free gift which we then work with to strive towards Christlikeness?

When I see the RC church saying "Do the first five Fridays and you are assured of making heaven," or an Orthodox saint saying "Do not believe in Universal Salvation ** because it will keep you from working for your salvation" I can't help but think that this contradicts the idea of a free and gratuitous salvation.

It seems to me (and I most certainly don't understand this fully) that all have been saved. As Fr. Matt has said, all will be with Christ, but not all will find it enjoyable. This means to me that Christ's redemption has saved everyone, but we are called upon to enter into that union of salvation with Christ and then cooperate with the Holy Spirit in our theosis. Those that don't lose out - big time.

But the wording of certain people in the RC and Orthodox church makes it sound like one is striving to get salvation rather than striving to take the free gift which is already given to all and make the most of it.

Thoughts?

** This is not an attempt to discuss Universal Salvation. Please don't even go there.

Can you provide a specific example of the Orthodox saint(s) you referenced?

 

[Light of the East]

what's the difference between these two points?

The difference, Father (sorry for the poor wording) is that once you receive the free gift through baptism, you are in. Example: a child is baptized and through a tragic accident, dies and never enters into theosis. So the child had no chance to enter into "the struggle of salvation" or do anything but be baptized into salvation.

Yet for an adult, the way the wording of RC and Orthodoxy is put (or at least, the way I read it) is that once you get past a certain age, if you don't do Rosaries every day, or say the First Fridays, or practice fasting and ascetical practices, you don't get salvation. You can be, in fact, in danger of losing it all.

That doesn't sound much like free salvation to me. It sounds more like God-the-Indian-giver.

Now, as far as the rewards that await in the next age, yes, there is very good reason to struggle here and now.

1. To cooperate with the Holy Spirit in breaking the bonds of sin over our lives.

2. To become like Christ (theosis) which is the goal of our lives.

3. To receive rewards in the next life. There are various crowns of rewards which await those who are faithful.

But the way that I read the RC and Orthodox wording, it doesn't sound like working to achieve these things, but rather working to be saved.

Does that make sense?