Can you find the Church?

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obscura

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There are differences in the EOC beliefs about Mary compared to the RCC teachings. For one, the EOC doesn’t necessarily believe that Mary never sinned. They believe she could’ve sinned but was cleansed of her sin before Jesus’ incarnation. Many are also opposed to the rosary in which the RCC prays 10 Hail Marys for every 1 Our Father, a practice that in my opinion seems backwards.



The EOC has a very different perspective on the possibility of purgatory. They believe that we MIGHT have to undergo a cleansing or purging of our sinful nature before we enter Heaven. They don’t teach this as a definite situation but instead a possibility. They reject the RCC doctrine that teaches that we must pay a penalty in the afterlife for the remission of sin.

I know all of that.

To me, it's just same ideas, different contexts.

"We don't believe she never ever sinned, but she was cleansed of sin before Jesus' incarnation" - Okay, so either way, Immaculate Conception.

And St. Seraphim of Sarov, a Russian Orthodox, did have a prayer rule to the Theotokos, which is essentially the rosary in Orthodox form.
 
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obscura

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According to the RCC doctrine of purgatory we must pay the penalty for our sins in the afterlife which means that Jesus didn’t pay the penalty for all our sins and we must pay the remaining balance ourself. The EOC rejects this teaching and teaches that Jesus paid for all our sins in full

This is an interesting take, because in regards to the EO view, I've seen... well, I dunno if they are anecdotes, or myths, or what... but implications that if we somehow die in sin, that the demons have a legal right to drag us to hell, basically. Or like a situation where someone died, and then their guardian angel tallied up all their prayers and virtues to see if they outweighed their sins, and if they did, then the demons couldn't take them. Things like that. I have no clue if they have foundation in their theology, or not. These seem to be personal stories? Parables? from individual saints.

Just sounded very works-based salvationist to me.
 
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BNR32FAN

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This is an interesting take, because in regards to the EO view, I've seen... well, I dunno if they are anecdotes, or myths, or what... but implications that if we somehow die in sin, that the demons have a legal right to drag us to hell, basically. Or like a situation where someone died, and then their guardian angel tallied up all their prayers and virtues to see if they outweighed their sins, and if they did, then the demons couldn't take them. Things like that. I have no clue if they have foundation in their theology, or not. These seem to be personal stories? Parables? from individual saints.

Just sounded very works-based salvationist to me.

Im not familiar with these. These appear to be contradictory to EOC theology. If a person is in Christ when he dies then he has no sin if he is not then he does. So there’s no weighing that I’m familiar with. I’m sure that’s not an official doctrine.
 
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BNR32FAN

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I know all of that.

To me, it's just same ideas, different contexts.

"We don't believe she never ever sinned, but she was cleansed of sin before Jesus' incarnation" - Okay, so either way, Immaculate Conception.

And St. Seraphim of Sarov, a Russian Orthodox, did have a prayer rule to the Theotokos, which is essentially the rosary in Orthodox form.

Well to teach both original sin and that Mary never sinned is contradictory one another. The EOC teaching is not.
 
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concretecamper

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They reject the RCC doctrine that teaches that we must pay a penalty in the afterlife for the remission of sin.
please quote an authoritative Catholic source that defines the "doctrine" of purgatory in this manner.
 
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BNR32FAN

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please quote an authoritative Catholic source that defines the "doctrine" of purgatory in this manner.

Sure, this is directly from the RCC catechism

1031. "The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned. [Cf. Council of Florence (1439): DS 1304; Council of Trent (1563): DS 1820; (1547): 1580; see also Benedict XII, Benedictus Deus (1336): DS 1000.] The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire. [Cf. 1 Cor 3:15; 1 Pet 1:7.] As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come. [St. Gregory the Great, Dial. 4, 39: PL 77, 396; cf. Mt 12:32-36.]"

1472. "To understand this doctrine and practice of the Church, it is necessary to understand that sin has a double consequence. Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the 'eternal punishment' of sin. On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the 'temporal punishment' of sin. These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain. [Cf. Council of Trent (1551): DS 1712-1713; (1563): 1820.]"
 
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BNR32FAN

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2 different topics.

Back to back posts where you get the Catholic position wrong.

It would be more helpful if you explained exactly where I went wrong. Is Mary not a descendant from Adam?
 
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concretecamper

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Sure, this is directly from the RCC catechism

1031. "The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned. [Cf. Council of Florence (1439): DS 1304; Council of Trent (1563): DS 1820; (1547): 1580; see also Benedict XII, Benedictus Deus (1336): DS 1000.] The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire. [Cf. 1 Cor 3:15; 1 Pet 1:7.] As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come. [St. Gregory the Great, Dial. 4, 39: PL 77, 396; cf. Mt 12:32-36.]"

1472. "To understand this doctrine and practice of the Church, it is necessary to understand that sin has a double consequence. Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the 'eternal punishment' of sin. On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the 'temporal punishment' of sin. These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain. [Cf. Council of Trent (1551): DS 1712-1713; (1563): 1820.]"
I'm sorry, I missed where the word "penalty" is.
It would be more helpful if you explained exactly where I went wrong.
see above
 
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FenderTL5

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I know all of that.

To me, it's just same ideas, different contexts.

"We don't believe she never ever sinned, but she was cleansed of sin before Jesus' incarnation" - Okay, so either way, Immaculate Conception.
Immaculate Conception is a doctrine that addresses the birth of Mary, not of Christ.
There is no Immaculate Conception in Orthodoxy, it is unnecessary.
So no, you don't "know all of that"
 
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BNR32FAN

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I'm sorry, I missed where the word "penalty" is.
see above

It’s right here. Punishment is a penalty.

These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin.
 
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Albion

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Sure, this is directly from the RCC catechism
1472. "To understand this doctrine and practice of the Church, it is necessary to understand that sin has a double consequence. Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the 'eternal punishment' of sin. On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the 'temporal punishment' of sin. These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain. [Cf. Council of Trent (1551): DS 1712-1713; (1563): 1820.]"

You did it! Thanks.

"Purification" = "Punishment" for sin.

And that is what Purgatory is said to accomplish.
 
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BNR32FAN

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thank you for showing us all that the "Doctrine" you claim the Church teaches is only your take on things.

No my phone failed to copy the quote so it pasted the wrong one. I fixed it so now you can see where it mentions the punishment (penalty) we must pay according to the catechism

These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin.
 
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concretecamper

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"Purification" = "Punishment" for sin
thank you too for your own wordsmithing to make something fit your ideas.

Funny, both candidates had to change words to make it APPEAR the Church teaches something it doesn't.

Keep it.coming boys!
 
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BNR32FAN

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thank you too for your own wordsmithing to make something fit your ideas.

Funny, both candidates had to change words to make it APPEAR the Church teaches something it doesn't.

Keep it.coming boys!

So a punishment is not a penalty?
 
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BNR32FAN

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step 1: show us all where the word punishment is used.

I did, twice already. The punishment of being separated from God and the punishment of being purified by fire. That’s the two punishments according to the catechism.
 
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