"Moral Jobs" that are "safe" for Orthodox?

[ArmyMatt]

I'm reminded of a story of a famous story related to Metropolitan Anthony of Sorouzh. Roughly paraphrased, he once stepped out of the Royal Doors to give a homily. Instead, he told the congregation, "Yesterday a woman came here with a child and somebody told her to leave because she did not have a head covering. Whoever that was, pray for this woman. Because of you she may never enter a church again and her salvation is now on your soul". He then went back into the altar and continued with the Divine Liturgy.

Vladyka Mark of Philadelphia did something similar, when a woman came in and was told the drug rehab was down the street.

 

[rusmeister]

If your kids are going to be in any sort of occupation that's service/hospitality related or deals with the public, than no such job safe from debauchery exists. The best we can do is keep a solid head on our shoulders.



On that note, and this isn't an attack to you Gurney, I think that we Orthodox need to do less running from immorality and more dealing with it. Christ Himself dined with prostitutes, tax collectors, liars, thieves, adulterers, etc. Perhaps it is the ex-Roman Catholic in me, but I think we Orthodox would be more productive in dealing with people who don't live the Christian life instead of avoiding them. Fr Seraphim Rose, for example, was at one point an active homosexual. Abbot Tryphon of "The Morning Offering" podcast fame, was a pot smoking hippie in the 1960s and at one point had a job as a bouncer. St Moses the Ethiopian was the leader of a gang of thieves that killed people too. St Mary of Egypt whored her way to the Holy Land and we celebrate her life every Lent. The list goes on.

I'm reminded of a story of a famous story related to Metropolitan Anthony of Sorouzh. Roughly paraphrased, he once stepped out of the Royal Doors to give a homily. Instead, he told the congregation, "Yesterday a woman came here with a child and somebody told her to leave because she did not have a head covering. Whoever that was, pray for this woman. Because of you she may never enter a church again and her salvation is now on your soul". He then went back into the altar and continued with the Divine Liturgy.

We can't avoid immorality and evil forever. The best we can do is keep a good head on our shoulders, a consistent prayer life (guilty as charged not always keep that up), actually ACT like Orthodox Christians, and, pray for everyone. Maybe if we lived a halfway decent Orthodox life such people would enter the Church by our example and find some semblance of salvation.

Hi, EC,
As an ex-CA teacher myself, and knowing a little about him, I think Gurney’s attitude is not so much one of running away from the encroaching godlessness as it is one of wondering how one can keep one’s job at all. It may be for now that Christians constantly ordered to eat food offered to idols, so to speak, may not be dragged before an emperor, tortured and slain, but they will certainly be fired. The teachers are being ordered to teach immoral and godless ways and forbidden to teach the Way, the Truth and the Life. That is an altogether different thing from what you are talking about.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

You read me perfectly indeed, Rus. Thank you.

Hi, EC,
As an ex-CA teacher myself, and knowing a little about him, I don’t think Gurney’s attitude is not so much one of running away from the encroaching godlessness as it is one of wondering how one can keep one’s job at all. It may be for now that Christians constantly ordered to eat food offered to idols, so to speak, may not be dragged before an emperor, tortured and slain, but they will certainly be fired. The teachers are being ordered to teach immoral and godless ways and forbidden to teach the Way, the Truth and the Life. That is an altogether different thing from what you are talking about.

 

[FenderTL5]

..not so much one of running away from the encroaching godlessness as it is one of wondering how one can keep one’s job at all. It may be for now that Christians constantly ordered to eat food offered to idols, so to speak, may not be dragged before an emperor, tortured and slain, but they will certainly be fired. ..

Perhaps the trades. afaik, there's no way to make an HVAC unit or electrical panel work in a (non)Christian manner, nor is there any moral philosophy in the principles that make them function.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I think you might not be seeing my concern, E.C., or perhaps I myself have done a poor job of laying it out!

I'm not concerned about engagement. I'm concerned about the corruption of my own kids and/or their participation in evil acts as a necessity to function in their careers of choice. I'm not saying we should never talk to the homeless guy or the drug user or the LGBT fan. I'm not saying we cast them off. I am focused in this thread about a good, honest day's work that benefits mankind and my children while NOT corrupting others.

Also, I do not want to see my kids go to college for $50,000 and then find that their job requires them to participate in evil.

What I'm hearing from most folks so far is that blue collar hands-on work is one of, if not the only, work that can be done without a moral decay now. That's sad.

My daughter is taking a psychology class right now in junior college while she's in high school. She's doing both like my son. She told my wife how much she likes psychology so far. On one hand, I think that's great. On the other hand, modern psychology is morally at odds with our Holy Orthodox faith on many levels. It definitely affirms LGBT nonsense, is usually fine with cohabitation and "trial marriages," abortion is usually just fine with psychs, 'changing your sex' is affirmed, and a host of other things....I honestly would hope she doesn't go into psychology, etc.

Like I told you in my OP, imagine that awesome girl at my parish who is very religious, now that she is an anesthesiology nurse, she is asked to participate in a sex change operation. The horror of it and the things she saw, she has a type of PTSD from it spiritually. It's killing her. Imagine saying, "I refuse to participate in this surgery on religious grounds" in 2021. Good luck with that. Who would think her job has an immoral, sickening component? You're just putting patients to sleep during procedures?

My job is quickly becoming controversial. I have 9 years left. Lord have mercy that I can remain who I am and honest in my faith and keep strong. Critical race theory and LGBT will NOT be a part of my classroom....period.

If your kids are going to be in any sort of occupation that's service/hospitality related or deals with the public, than no such job safe from debauchery exists. The best we can do is keep a solid head on our shoulders.



On that note, and this isn't an attack to you Gurney, I think that we Orthodox need to do less running from immorality and more dealing with it. Christ Himself dined with prostitutes, tax collectors, liars, thieves, adulterers, etc. Perhaps it is the ex-Roman Catholic in me, but I think we Orthodox would be more productive in dealing with people who don't live the Christian life instead of avoiding them. Fr Seraphim Rose, for example, was at one point an active homosexual. Abbot Tryphon of "The Morning Offering" podcast fame, was a pot smoking hippie in the 1960s and at one point had a job as a bouncer. St Moses the Ethiopian was the leader of a gang of thieves that killed people too. St Mary of Egypt whored her way to the Holy Land and we celebrate her life every Lent. The list goes on.

I'm reminded of a story of a famous story related to Metropolitan Anthony of Sorouzh. Roughly paraphrased, he once stepped out of the Royal Doors to give a homily. Instead, he told the congregation, "Yesterday a woman came here with a child and somebody told her to leave because she did not have a head covering. Whoever that was, pray for this woman. Because of you she may never enter a church again and her salvation is now on your soul". He then went back into the altar and continued with the Divine Liturgy.

We can't avoid immorality and evil forever. The best we can do is keep a good head on our shoulders, a consistent prayer life (guilty as charged not always keep that up), actually ACT like Orthodox Christians, and, pray for everyone. Maybe if we lived a halfway decent Orthodox life such people would enter the Church by our example and find some semblance of salvation.

 

[ArmyMatt]

if she likes psychology, then let her get close to those Orthodox who are in that field and solid in their faith, who can teach her how to navigate the pro-perversion folks out there.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Navigation around the set norms of the profession would mean losing your license.

if she likes psychology, then let her get close to those Orthodox who are in that field and solid in their faith, who can teach her how to navigate the pro-perversion folks out there.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Navigation around the set norms of the profession would mean losing your license.

well, you can have her talk to someone like Dr Al Rossi or Dr Philip Mamalakis, both solidly Orthodox and have not lost their licenses.

 

[SingularityOne]

I’m going into the psychology/therapy field and although it is difficult to navigate... it is possible. Once you get through the schooling and supervision I’ve heard it’s easier. Gotta be wise as a serpent and innocent as a dove. It’a a sharpening/crucible-like process.

 

[bèlla]

My daughter is taking a psychology class right now in junior college while she's in high school. She's doing both like my son. She told my wife how much she likes psychology so far.

Coaching uses the same principles and it’s a popular track if you’re disciplined. My daughter was pursuing medicine and the Lord directed her to wellness instead. She volunteered in a clinic as a teen that offered a program for heart disease prevention. They trained them on the subject and they educated the clients.

Health and wellness is her calling. She was helped by extensive courses in writing and psychology. It made working online easy. She completed her training last year.

Practically speaking, blogging is the safest avenue morality wise. You choose the topic and content. If you stay away from controversial subjects you’ll do okay.

This is where tradition is helpful. Cooking, parenting, decorating, gardening/homesteading, and budgeting are popular subjects. That’s the tip of the iceberg.

Working from home resolved two issues. It provided a source of income and allowed her to develop a business before she married. She’d have the resources for assistance with children and be able to remain home with them. That was her conviction and she wanted to homeschool. I devised a plan to make it work.

There’s a well-known blogger who started at 16. I post her recipes from time to time. I hope that helps.

~bella

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Blogging as a career? I can’t imagine that being too lucrative

Coaching uses the same principles and it’s a popular track if you’re disciplined. My daughter was pursuing medicine and the Lord directed her to wellness instead. She volunteered in a clinic as a teen that offered a program for heart disease prevention. They trained them on the subject and they educated the clients.

Health and wellness is her calling. She was helped by extensive courses in writing and psychology. It made working online easy. She completed her training last year.

Practically speaking, blogging is the safest avenue morality wise. You choose the topic and content. If you stay away from controversial subjects you’ll do okay.

This is where tradition is helpful. Cooking, parenting, decorating, gardening/homesteading, and budgeting are popular subjects. That’s the tip of the iceberg.

Working from home resolved two issues. It provided a source of income and allowed her to develop a business before she married. She’d have the resources for assistance with children and be able to remain home with them. That was her conviction and she wanted to homeschool. I devised a plan to make it work.

There’s a well-known blogger who started at 16. I post her recipes from time to time. I hope that helps.

~bella

 

[bèlla]

Blogging as a career? I can’t imagine that being too lucrative

Why not? You build a site with useful content that creates multiple revenue streams.

Ad revenue (based on site traffic)
Affiliate income (e.g. Amazon and recommended products)
Product sales (digital and physical if desired)
Services (e.g. coaching, social media)
Subscriptions and memberships
Sponsored posts
Collaborations (with brands and other bloggers)
Consulting (with startups and brands)
Influencer campaigns (e.g. IG)

The site I linked has a lot of that. This is from her bio.

I started this blog in 2012 and have since been featured on The Cooking Channel, Food Network, HGTV, Crate & Barrel, Shape Magazine, Self Magazine, the Huffington Post, and PopSugar, among others. Half Baked Harvest was named Readers’ Choice Favorite Food Blog by Better Homes and Gardens in both 2014 and 2016. It was also the recipient of Saveur Magazine’s 2016 Award for Most Inspired Weeknight Dinners as well as the 2016 Bloglovin’ Best Food Blog Award.

Look at the barn. The products were probably en gratis and maybe a few in the second.

Bloggers made a killing last year. Everybody was home.

~bella

 

[~Anastasia~]

Blogging as a career? I can’t imagine that being too lucrative

It can be if you’re in the right niche and positioned well. I used to be paid for both advertising and writing. For one niche I had a product line.

But I tired of Google changing its dynamics regularly and keeping up - not to mention the inability back then to prevent people stealing your work.

It’s a bit like aiming to be a pro athlete though, maybe. A lot more people dream or aim for it, than actually make it.

 

[~Anastasia~]

I’m not necessarily advising for this, but it’s something I think about. I decided to get out of teaching after all. I’m currently a behavioral therapist, working to increase my certifications.

Clients can be accepted, or not. One can (and should) ethically refuse to offer certain treatment programs based on one’s lack of expertise with a particular issue or population.

As an independent practitioner in the field, all decisions would be up to the professional. I’m not there yet. I still require supervision and work within a company structure.

Which causes me slight problems. I initially accepted the position with it being a solidly Christian institution. But it has been sold (merged) to another group that is not Christian. I am under contract I am obligated to fulfill.

But there have not been that sort of moral dilemmas as yet. The closest was the question of pronouns. I’ve worked to teach some who don’t have it in their repertoire to understand his/her/my/your (I work with autistic learners) and I was asked by one of my trainees if we should teach alternative pronouns or pronoun preferences. I replied that we absolutely should not - not to ones who cannot distinguish between my/your. And I stand by that. Not because I’m trying to oppress or do disservice to (or “hate”) people who want to dictate their own pronouns. But because I’m tasked with teaching everything from basic to complex skills to a variety of learners, and if they can’t talk in terms of “me” vs. “you” or “he” vs. “she” ... they are not going to be helped by introducing concepts that make them question the consistency of basic communication skills.

I am also very interested in pursuing a LMHC license as well. I’m unsure yet if I will do that, since my program doesn’t offer it. But my interest is in pursuing counseling from a specifically Orthodox perspective.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Anastasia!!! Yay!!!

It can be if you’re in the right niche and positioned well. I used to be paid for both advertising and writing. For one niche I had a product line.

But I tired of Google changing its dynamics regularly and keeping up - not to mention the inability back then to prevent people stealing your work.

It’s a bit like aiming to be a pro athlete though, maybe. A lot more people dream or aim for it, than actually make it.

 

[bèlla]

It can be if you’re in the right niche and positioned well. I used to be paid for both advertising and writing. For one niche I had a product line.

Great to see you! I hope you're well.

It's a viable path for many. Especially when you don't have financial responsibilities or marital and familial demands. You have more time to invest in the venture unencumbered. And that matters.

People who need to make money immediately should take a different course. Those who desire financial and career autonomy are ideal candidates. His daughter is young. That's why I directed him to someone who began in her teens. And her family is involved in the business.

There's another factor that goes unsaid and that's your network. Getting plugged in with the right people makes a difference. I've watched many try to start a business when they're married with children and it's really hard. Starting young is best if you can.

~bella

 

[~Anastasia~]

Great to see you! I hope you're well.

It's a viable path for many. Especially when you don't have financial responsibilities or marital and familial demands. You have more time to invest in the venture unencumbered. And that matters.

People who need to make money immediately should take a different course. Those who desire financial and career autonomy are ideal candidates. His daughter is young. That's why I directed him to someone who began in her teens. And her family is involved in the business.

There's another factor that goes unsaid and that's your network. Getting plugged in with the right people makes a difference. I've watched many try to start a business when they're married with children and it's really hard. Starting young is best if you can.

~bella

Hi Bella and thank you!

The cyber world has changed a bit since I was in the game. That’s actually what I never liked - how fast things changed.

It was heavily about search metrics then. Probably still is. But there was no real network of popular bloggers to plug into. Each of us did it on our own.

I’ve long since sold the blogs. There’s money there too. I do keep a decent following I’ve built on Pinterest, but I don’t cultivate that stuff anymore.

It can be viable, I’m sure. Just very competitive. Definitely nice if you want to work from home, which was why I got in and stayed in for some years. Building it up was labor-intensive though.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Anastasia!!! Yay!!!

Hey Gurney!!!!

 

[E.C.]

Hi, EC,
As an ex-CA teacher myself, and knowing a little about him, I don’t think Gurney’s attitude is not so much one of running away from the encroaching godlessness as it is one of wondering how one can keep one’s job at all. It may be for now that Christians constantly ordered to eat food offered to idols, so to speak, may not be dragged before an emperor, tortured and slain, but they will certainly be fired. The teachers are being ordered to teach immoral and godless ways and forbidden to teach the Way, the Truth and the Life. That is an altogether different thing from what you are talking about.

It's possible that I've misread Gurney's initial post a little bit. It makes more sense the way you say it here rus. Perhaps I'm a bit too used to hearing the mentality that's "oh no I live two blocks away from a bar and my spiritual life is in danger" when there are other ways to travel without going near it. Sin is all around us and mere exposure to it does not mean we are party to it. The mindset that mere exposure equates to participation or condemnation is what I mistakenly read in Gurney's post.

I think you might not be seeing my concern, E.C., or perhaps I myself have done a poor job of laying it out!

I'm not concerned about engagement. I'm concerned about the corruption of my own kids and/or their participation in evil acts as a necessity to function in their careers of choice. I'm not saying we should never talk to the homeless guy or the drug user or the LGBT fan. I'm not saying we cast them off. I am focused in this thread about a good, honest day's work that benefits mankind and my children while NOT corrupting others.

Also, I do not want to see my kids go to college for $50,000 and then find that their job requires them to participate in evil.

What I'm hearing from most folks so far is that blue collar hands-on work is one of, if not the only, work that can be done without a moral decay now. That's sad.

My daughter is taking a psychology class right now in junior college while she's in high school. She's doing both like my son. She told my wife how much she likes psychology so far. On one hand, I think that's great. On the other hand, modern psychology is morally at odds with our Holy Orthodox faith on many levels. It definitely affirms LGBT nonsense, is usually fine with cohabitation and "trial marriages," abortion is usually just fine with psychs, 'changing your sex' is affirmed, and a host of other things....I honestly would hope she doesn't go into psychology, etc.

Like I told you in my OP, imagine that awesome girl at my parish who is very religious, now that she is an anesthesiology nurse, she is asked to participate in a sex change operation. The horror of it and the things she saw, she has a type of PTSD from it spiritually. It's killing her. Imagine saying, "I refuse to participate in this surgery on religious grounds" in 2021. Good luck with that. Who would think her job has an immoral, sickening component? You're just putting patients to sleep during procedures?

My job is quickly becoming controversial. I have 9 years left. Lord have mercy that I can remain who I am and honest in my faith and keep strong. Critical race theory and LGBT will NOT be a part of my classroom....period.

You know, on a practical side, if the Church has a mechanism for handling those in the military who actually do end up taking someone's life in the line of duty than I like to think that we'll figure something out in these sorts of scenarios as they become more commonplace.

Another practical solution is to leave California for a more sanity friendly environment

But I feel you in this. I've been in the Navy for just over nine years with eleven left until retirement unless I either die, medically retire, or they offer early retirements and I'm able to take advantage of it. I can accept that despite God giving us free will there are those who will abuse it, but until we're forced to condone things I think I can survive.

 

[bèlla]

It was heavily about search metrics then. Probably still is. But there was no real network of popular bloggers to plug into. Each of us did it on our own.

That's starting to change and people are linking up. Going it alone is hard. There's accountability groups, masterminds, etc. Working together is ideal.

When the Lord directed me to this path I began with copywriting and moved to writing and everything snowballed. One resource begets the next and I landed on the one that would change my life dramatically. It put me in the network. For years I was in learning mode. I didn't know social media, marketing, analytics, and so on. Nor could I shoot and process pictures. But I was committed and that was the difference.

I don't want to give the impression it's easy. You need a lot of discipline. No one's going to make you create the content or keep your deadlines. You've gotta be willing to own it. For someone diligent, disciplined, and patient it's worth exploring. You don't have to be super creative. You have to show up.

Do you enjoy the work you're doing now? I hope its satisfying and the Lord gives you favor and helps you prosper.

~bella