By

[Mr. M]

Sin

 

[Love First]

Yes we are to walk in the Spirit but that doesn’t mean that we disregard YHWH’s law. As Yeshua, Paul, and John taught we are to uphold God’s law and keep his commandments.

 

[Mr. M]

Yes we are to walk in the Spirit but that doesn’t mean that we disregard YHWH’s law. As Yeshua, Paul, and John taught we are to uphold God’s law and keep his commandments.

Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary,
we establish the law.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

The spiritual application of the law is inverse to the written law, almost antithetical. The commandments tell us what not to do, but implicit is what we ought to be doing in that same regard.

 

[Love First]

The spiritual application of the law is inverse to the written law, almost antithetical. The commandments tell us what not to do, but implicit is what we ought to be doing in that same regard.

When Yeshua came he took the law and explained it and expounded upon it. Did you know that the commandments to love God and love neighbor are both written in the Old Testament? Yeshua was quoting the Old Testament when he taught them to love. The law is spiritual as the apostle Paul tells us. Romans 7:14

 

[HARK!]

The spiritual application of the law is inverse to the written law, almost antithetical. The commandments tell us what not to do, but implicit is what we ought to be doing in that same regard.

The 613 commandments include "positive commandments", to perform an act (mitzvot aseh), and "negative commandments", to abstain from certain acts (mitzvot lo taaseh). The negative commandments number 365, which coincides with the number of days in the solar year, and the positive commandments number 248, a number ascribed to the number of bones and main organs in the human body.[2]

613 commandments - Wikipedia

 

[Soyeong]

The spiritual application of the law is inverse to the written law, almost antithetical. The commandments tell us what not to do, but implicit is what we ought to be doing in that same regard.

There are more ways to do what is righteous or sinful that what God's law specifically prescribes or prohibits, but God's law is spiritual in that it has always been intended to teach us deeper spiritual principles of which the listed laws are just examples, and which are aspects of God's nature. For example, God's righteous laws teach us about His righteousness and allow us to gain an understanding of a spiritual principle of righteousness that will guide us to take actions that are examples of that principle, both in situations what are specifically prescribed by the written law and those that are not.

What sense does it make to you to think that God would give laws that were almost antithetical to the spiritual application of the law when He could have instead given laws that were are examples of their their spiritual application? The Mosaic Law contains 365 negative commandments not to do something , such as the command not to commit theft, and 248 positive commandments to do something, such as the command to honor our parents, it is not just commandments telling us what not to do. Furthermore, the negative commandments should also be understood as being commandments to do the reverse, such as the command not to commit theft also being understood as the command to be generous.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

...the negative commandments should also be understood as being commandments to do the reverse, such as the command not to commit theft also being understood as the command to be generous.

That is my point, but from a legalistic viewpoint all that is needed is to obey the Law as written. If I abstain from stealing I have satisfied the requirement of the Law.

 

[BobRyan]

Sin is no longer simply wrongdoing, as instructed by the Law; but the failure to do good,

The Matt 5 statement of Christ was always true - God does not change. Moses and Elijah stand with Christ in glory in Matt 17 - before the cross even happens. Suppose for a moment that the - pre-cross statements of Truth spoken by Christ in Matt 5 - were in fact "not true" for Moses and Elijah. So suppose they were enraged and family friends and neighbors and enemies - seething but not speaking about it. Suppose they were constantly lusting -- but never engaged in an outward act of it. Then went straight to heaven with that sort of "just lacking the chance" sort of character? Is that the "one Gospel" Gal 1:6-9 that was "preached to Abraham" Gal 3:8 regarding the new creation and what is sin vs what is not?

In the OT the New Covenant is not merely written on outward action but rather "the LAW is written on THE HEART and mind" Jer 31:31-34

 

[BobRyan]

That is my point, but from a legalistic viewpoint all that is needed is to obey the Law as written. If I abstain from stealing I have satisfied the requirement of the Law.

Paul claims that the unconverted person "does NOT submit to the Law of God neither indeed CAN they" Rom 8:4-11 by contrast to the actions of the saints.

In Romans 2 Paul does not merely accuse lost-Jews of "thought crimes" but of outward crimes..."deeds"

17 But if you bear the name “Jew” and rely upon the Law and boast in God, 18 and know His will and approve the things that are essential, being instructed out of the Law, 19 and are confident that you yourself are a guide to the blind, a light to those who are in darkness, 20 a corrector of the foolish, a teacher of the immature, having in the Law the embodiment of knowledge and of the truth, 21 you, therefore, who teach another, do you not teach yourself? You who preach that one shall not steal, do you steal? 22 You who say that one should not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? 23 You who boast in the Law, through your breaking the Law, do you dishonor God? 24 For “the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you,” just as it is written.

Are the gentiles "reading the minds of the Jews" and discovering "thought crimes"? No - Paul says real outward actions flow from the thoughts.

Rom 2:3 But do you suppose this, O man, when you pass judgment on those who practice such things and do the same yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God? 4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who will render to each person according to his deeds: 7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; 8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.

 

[Mr. M]

The Matt 5 statement of Christ was always true

The statement you are quoting me on was in reference to James.

Sin is no longer simply wrongdoing, as instructed by the Law; but the failure to do good,
as we have been instructed by the conviction of the Holy Spirit of Christ.
James 4:17 Therefore, to him who knows to do good and does not do, to him it is sin.

My understanding of this statement, based on what you have posted also,

In the OT the New Covenant is not merely written on outward action but rather "the LAW is written on THE HEART and mind" Jer 31:31-34

When you ignore your own convictions of the heart, placed there by Holy Spirit, you harden
your heart to the Lord, dull your conscience, and frustrate the Spirit of Grace.

 

[BobRyan]

The statement you are quoting me on was in reference to James.

ok. I saw both Matt 5 and James quoted in your post and presumed that you view them as making the same point.

Sin is no longer simply wrongdoing, as instructed by the Law; but the failure to do good,
as we have been instructed by the conviction of the Holy Spirit of Christ.
James 4:17 Therefore, to him who knows to do good and does not do, to him it is sin.

The Law does, of course, establish the fundamental Truth of doing good:
Leviticus 19:18 You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the children
of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the Lord.

The Spirit of Christ calls us to be perfect, as our heavenly Father directs by His Will
Matthew 5:
43 You have heard that it was said, You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.
44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those
who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you,
45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil
and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.
46 For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax
collectors do the same?
47 And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors do so?
48 Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.

I don't know about you, but I could never attain such a high level of obedience
to the Will of our Father without the power of His Holy Spirit
Psalm 139:
5 You have hedged me behind and before, and laid Your hand upon me.
6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain it.

My understanding of this statement, based on what you have posted also,

When you ignore your own convictions of the heart, placed there by Holy Spirit, you harden
your heart to the Lord, dull your conscience, and frustrate the Spirit of Grace.

I agree. I don't differ with your view that there is the inward thought-level form of sin and rebellion. My point is that such a thing was never "ok" it was always sin. Neither James nor Christ are making laws to create new sin - He is clarifying the Word of God to show how vast and deep are the implications of what sin actually is when we read God's commands.

 

[Mr. M]

I agree. I don't differ with your view that there is the inward thought-level form of sin and rebellion. My point is that such a thing was never "ok" it was always sin. Neither James nor Christ are making laws to create new sin - He is clarifying the Word of God to show how vast and deep are the implications of what sin actually is when we read God's commands.

An example of what James is teaching would be to ignore this from Torah, sin by inaction.
Exodus 23:
4 If you meet your enemy’s ox or his donkey going astray, you shall surely bring it back to him again.
5 If you see the donkey of one who hates you lying under its burden, and you would refrain from helping it, you shall surely help him with it.
and in Matthew 5, same thing.
44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you,
and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you.
Now, we would have to ignore the written law, and also the convicted conscience from the Holy
Spirit in our heart.

 

[BobRyan]

An example of what James is teaching would be to ignore this from Torah, sin by inaction.
Exodus 23:
4 If you meet your enemy’s ox or his donkey going astray, you shall surely bring it back to him again.
5 If you see the donkey of one who hates you lying under its burden, and you would refrain from helping it, you shall surely help him with it.
and in Matthew 5, same thing.
44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you,
and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you.
Now, we would have to ignore the written law, and also the convicted conscience from the Holy
Spirit in our heart.

I don't understand your point. You appear to be saying that the scriptures say to treat your enemy harshly but the text you quote says the opposite. What am I missing?

 

[Mr. M]

I don't understand your point. You appear to be saying that the scriptures say to treat your enemy harshly but the text you quote says the opposite. What am I missing?

Nope. The scriptures from Exodus are saying "do the right thing", even when it is someone
you have issues with, and is consistent with what Jesus is teaching in Matthew 5. What James
says, is that to know you should be doing good to someone and do not, and is therefore sin.
There is more to Holy Spirit in your heart than what has already been written. Conviction of
conscience can occur in an infinite number of situations. I will give you an example. In Phoenix,
panhandling is legal. Therefore, whenever I would be out, there would be someone shaking a cup
at me for change on every corner. I told the Lord I wasn't going to trouble myself with them, unless
I felt convicted in my conscience about walking past someone. Whenever that happened, and I helped
someone out, they never said thank you. They always said "God Bless You". By this I knew that I was
walking in the Spirit, not hardening my heart towards any beggar, but learning to be sensitive to His
instructions. Anyone, can quote Jeremiah 31, you have to be obedient "to walk as He walked".

 

[BobRyan]

Nope. The scriptures from Exodus are saying "do the right thing", even when it is someone
you have issues with, and is consistent with what Jesus is teaching in Matthew 5. What James
says, is that to know you should be doing good to someone and do not, and is therefore sin.

Ok so where is the issue?

There is more to Holy Spirit in your heart than what has already been written. Conviction of
conscience can occur in an infinite number of situations.

ok but how is that getting you to the conclusion "An example of what James is teaching would be to ignore this from Torah, sin by inaction."

I am not following the point apparently.

 

[Mr. M]

Ok so where is the issue?

I didn't have an issue, you did.

You appear to be saying that the scriptures say to treat your enemy harshly but the text you quote says the opposite. What am I missing?

I don't know what you mean by "appear to be saying". I quoted from Exodus 23. I noted the
consistency with that to what Jesus said in Matthew 5. Where do I say to treat enemies harshly?
I said that to ignore Exodus 23, you would be sinning by inaction, which is reflected in what
James said. I then went on to say that because the Holy Spirit has been given, we also sin
by inaction if the Holy Spirit convicts us to help out, say a complete stranger, but we ignore Him.
This is more than what has been written in the Torah.
It is the Voice of the Spirit leading you in every situation. The Law "written in our
hearts" by the Holy Spirit is not a copy of the Torah. It is Now Faith.
Faith by hearing, hearing by the spoken word of God, even as Christ has stated in Matthew 4,
4 But He answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but
by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.
The Greek word rhema means "spoken word'. Anyone reading the Bible from Genesis
to Revelation should come to the conclusion that He is God who speaks, and His desire
has always been to speak directly to each of us, not through a mediator, like Moses, or
other prophets.

ok but how is that getting you to the conclusion "An example of what James is teaching would be to ignore this from Torah, sin by inaction."

I am not following the point apparently.

I was only showing Exodus 23 as a starting point for sinning by inaction, "knowing
the good to do, and not doing". I go on to say that obeying the Holy Spirit goes
beyond the written Torah, to what is spoken directly to our spirit.
1 Corinthians 2:
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God,
that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.
13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom
teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
Therefore, in every situation, we can know His good, acceptable and perfect Will, by
way of a renewed mind by the Spirit.
Acts 13:39 and by Him(the Lord, the Spirit) everyone who believes is justified from
all things from which you could not be justified by the law of Moses.

 

[BobRyan]

I quoted from Exodus 23. I noted theconsistency with that to what Jesus said in Matthew 5. Where do I say to treat enemies harshly?
I said that to ignore Exodus 23, you would be sinning by inaction, which is reflected in what
James said. I then went on to say that because the Holy Spirit has been given, we also sin
by inaction if the Holy Spirit convicts us to help out, say a complete stranger, but we ignore Him.
This is more than what has been written in the Torah.

Ok - I think we agree on what the Bible is saying OT and NT - the part that I was confused about is this ""An example of what James is teaching would be to ignore this from Torah, sin by inaction." - it looked to me like you were saying that James is teaching that we need to ignore some part of the Torah.

 

[Mr. M]

Ok - I think we agree on what the Bible is saying OT and NT - the part that I was confused about is this ""An example of what James is teaching would be to ignore this from Torah, sin by inaction." - it looked to me like you were saying that James is teaching that we need to ignore some part of the Torah.

Of course not. OT sin of omission is a sin of not doing, like not helping get your enemy's
ass out a ditch.
NT sin of omission is ignoring the directive of the Spirit that you are supposedly walking in.
The NT always requires more of us, not less. Do you agree?
"And whoever compels you to go one mile, go with him two".

 

[BobRyan]

Of course not. OT sin of omission is a sin of not doing, like not helping get your enemy's
ass out a ditch.
NT sin of omission is ignoring the directive of the Spirit that you are supposedly walking in.
The NT always requires more of us, not less. Do you agree?
"And whoever compels you to go one mile, go with him two".

Yes I agree that the NT explains God's Law in more detail but as I point out with Moses and Elijah even before the cross in Matt 17 - their thoughts / minds had to be held to the same standard as in the NT. "Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks" was the rule they used before the cross.

Luke 6:
44 For each tree is known by its own fruit. For people do not gather figs from thorns, nor do they pick grapes from a briar bush. 45 The good person out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth what is good; and the evil person out of the evil treasure brings forth what is evil; for his mouth speaks from that which fills his heart.

Prov 23:6 Do not eat the bread of a selfish person;
Or desire his delicacies;
7 For as he thinks within himself, so he is.
He says to you, “Eat and drink!”
But his heart is not with you.