The Gospel in Hebrews

[HIM]

@HIM what does this have to do with Traditional Theology? Did you read the SOP before posting this here? @MarkRohfrietsch, the other members and I like to keep this forum friendly to newcomers, so don’t take this the wrong way, but you might get better replies if you ask this thread to be moved to General Theology.

Thanks. If you wish or think it should be moved request it. Personally I don't care

 

[Fervent]

The Law is in the Heart and Mind. Prove what you say within the chapters you say do. Warning the context does not support it. So?

The onus is on you to prove that "the 10 commandments" are distinct from the rest of the law. Especially since the event described in Hebrews 9:18-20 that identifies what is meant by "the first"(as contrasted with "the new") which is being replaced is explicitly Exodus 20-34 where Moses read the commandments of the law(including the 10 commandments) and then inaugurated the covenant with a sacrifice. So where does the text make the separation you are attempting to make?

 

[HIM]

The onus is on you to prove that "the 10 commandments" are distinct from the rest of the law. Especially since the event described in Hebrews 9:18-20 that identifies what is meant by "the first"(as contrasted with "the new") which is being replaced is explicitly Exodus 20-34 where Moses read the commandments of the law(including the 10 commandments) and then inaugurated the covenant with a sacrifice. So where does the text make the separation you are attempting to make?

The 10 and all the laws pertaining to morality are in the heart and mind. The ones done away with are the ones pertaining to the sacrifices according to context. .

Heb 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

The ceremonial and sanctuary services.
Heb 9:1 Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary.
Heb 9:8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:
Heb 9:9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
Heb 9:10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.
Heb 9:18 Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.
Heb 9:19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,

No mention of any laws pertaining to morality.

Incidentally a covenant is a agreement. The first was a agreement between two parties and because Israel did not keep to their end God found fault. So He promised the New Covenant. Which is only an agreement on His End. He states His Law is in our hearts and minds through His Spirit through Christ. That is the Covenant. The Laws pertaining to morality and the ten was the part Israel was found in fault in respect to the first . So that was why God said He would put them in us. Because we can't do it with out His Spirit through Christ.

Define sin.

 

[Fervent]

The 10 and all the laws pertaining to morality are in the heart and mind. The ones done away with are the ones pertaining to the sacrifices according to context. .

No mention of any laws pertaining to morality.

Again, where does the text teach this separation? Where does the text distinguish between aspects of the law and divide it up into little pieces? Because as it stands now the distinction appears to be nothing more than an imposition you are making arbitrarily.

 

[Fervent]

Incidentally a covenant is a agreement. The first was a agreement between two parties and because Israel did not keep to their end God found fault. So He promised the New Covenant. Which is only an agreement on His End. He states His Law is in our hearts and minds through His Spirit through Christ. That is the Covenant. The Laws pertaining to morality and the ten was the part Israel was found in fault in respect to the first . So that was why God said He would put them in us. Because we can't do it with out His Spirit through Christ.

The covenant of the law is not simply "an agreement," it is a specific type of contract known as a Suzerain-Vassal treaty. Every single commandment given pertains to morality because the agreement is in exchange for the Suzerain taking an adoption/kinship protector role the vassal agrees to a set of guidelines to be kept. Just as with any other legal vehicle the pieces cannot be separated out, the whole of it is in force or it is void. The pre-amble, the reading of the agreed conditions, the witnesses, the placing of the articles into an honored vessel and the periodic reading of the agreement are all a unified whole not to be separated.

 

[HIM]

Again, where does the text teach this separation? Where does the text distinguish between aspects of the law and divide it up into little pieces? Because as it stands now the distinction appears to be nothing more than an imposition you are making arbitrarily.

Context. The laws mentioned in Hebrews as being fulfilled in Christ are only ceremonial.
The 10 and all the laws pertaining to morality are in the heart and mind. The ones done away with are the ones pertaining to the sacrifices according to context. .

Heb 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

The ceremonial and sanctuary services.
Heb 9:1 Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary.
Heb 9:8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:
Heb 9:9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
Heb 9:10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.
Heb 9:18 Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.
Heb 9:19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,

No mention of any laws pertaining to morality.

 

[HIM]

The covenant of the law is not simply "an agreement," it is a specific type of contract known as a Suzerain-Vassal treaty. Every single commandment given pertains to morality because the agreement is in exchange for the Suzerain taking an adoption/kinship protector role the vassal agrees to a set of guidelines to be kept. Just as with any other legal vehicle the pieces cannot be separated out, the whole of it is in force or it is void. The pre-amble, the reading of the agreed conditions, the witnesses, the placing of the articles into an honored vessel and the periodic reading of the agreement are all a unified whole not to be separated.

This is not a manmade covenant.

 

[Fervent]

This is not a manmade covenant.

No, but the pattern God chose to follow is one the Israelites recognized and knew well.

Context. The laws mentioned in Hebrews as being fulfilled in Christ are only ceremonial.

Where does the text make the distinction? Where does the text give such categories?

 

[HIM]

Where does the text make the distinction? Where does the text give such categories?

Heb 10:1 and 9:1 have no moral laws mentioned. Neither in 9:18-20. Only ceremonial.
Stop adding what is not there.

Goodnight

 

[Fervent]

Heb 10:1 and 9:1 have no moral laws mentioned. Neither in 9:18-20. Only ceremonial.
Stop adding what is not there.

Goodnight

You keep repeating "moral" and "ceremonial laws" as if these categories have meaning. Once again: where does the text(as in the whole Bible) categorize the law as moral or ceremonial? Where is the distinction made and taught? I have added, nor taken away, anything. On the other hand, you are adding arbitrary categories(and then simply outright denying what is written in 9:18-20 where Moses gave every command of the law).

 

[klutedavid]

Context. The laws mentioned in Hebrews as being fulfilled in Christ are only ceremonial.

Are you claiming that the Creator Himself could not have fulfilled the moral law?

The law giver fulfilled everything the law ever demanded.

That is why the whole law was a shadow, a blueprint, for Christ to fulfill.

Moses wrote about Jesus Christ in every line he wrote.

The law grants the knowledge of sin and that is all it will do for us.

The law contains a stack of moral law besides the ten commandments.

Did Jesus kill, did Jesus commit adultery?

Jesus fulfilled the moral law!

 

[HIM]

Are you claiming that the Creator Himself could not have fulfilled the moral law?

The law giver fulfilled everything the law ever demanded.

That is why the whole law was a shadow, a blueprint, for Christ to fulfill.

Moses wrote about Jesus Christ in every line he wrote.

The law grants the knowledge of sin and that is all it will do for us.

The law contains a stack of moral law besides the ten commandments.

Did Jesus kill, did Jesus commit adultery?

Jesus fulfilled the moral law!

Show in Hebrews 9 and 10 that they are speaking of the moral law. It is all about the sacrificial system so that the moral law can be placed in our hearts and minds.

 

[HIM]

You keep repeating "moral" and "ceremonial laws" as if these categories have meaning. Once again: where does the text(as in the whole Bible) categorize the law as moral or ceremonial? Where is the distinction made and taught? I have added, nor taken away, anything. On the other hand, you are adding arbitrary categories(and then simply outright denying what is written in 9:18-20 where Moses gave every command of the law).

Ordinances of divine service, the meat and drink and divers washings, the carnal ordinances, the gifts, sacrifices and worldly sanctuary were a figure imposed UNTIL the time of the reformation. THESE ARE MENTIONED. No mention of the Ten and any moral law, only those of the Sanctuary service and those imposed in respect to sanctifying, purifying of the flesh. None of which purged the conscience (the inner man, who we are) of dead works , works that cause death, sin to serve the living God as in reformation, the reforming that is in Christ Jesus. For this cause He is the mediator of the new. In His cleansing blood, Redemption, and a purge the conscience, our transgressions cleansed. That we that are called might receive the eternal promise, the Law in our hearts and minds, to serve the living God. As the first and all the vessels was dedicated, consecrated with blood so are we through blood of Christ. Vessels made fit for Holy use to serve the Living God. Not Every Precept, injunction of the Law being read. But the Law being in the heart and mind. No longer a we will do, but He has done. For God has said He will put His Laws in our hearts and into our minds.


Heb 9:1 Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary.
Heb 9:9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
Heb 9:10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.
Heb 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
Heb 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
Heb 9:13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
Heb 9:16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
Heb 9:17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
Heb 9:18 Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.
Heb 9:19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,
Heb 9:20 Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.

 

[HARK!]

MOD HAT ON

MOD HAT OFF​

 

[HIM]

MOD HAT ON

MOD HAT OFF​

I never really know where to put a thread. Thanks!

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Again, where does the text teach this separation? Where does the text distinguish between aspects of the law and divide it up into little pieces? Because as it stands now the distinction appears to be nothing more than an imposition you are making arbitrarily.

Here is a good breakdown of God's laws vs the law of Moses.


The Ten commandments are called the "law of the Lord" i.e. God's laws Isaiah 5:24 vs Law of Moses is called law of Moses Luke 2:22, 1 Corinthians 9:9

God's laws- written by God on stone Exodus 31:18, 32:16 vs Law of Moses written by Moses in a book Deut 31:24, 2 Chronicles 35:12

God's laws placed inside the ark Exodus 40:20 vs Law of Moses placed on the side of the ark Deut 31:26

God's laws points out sin Romans 7:7, 3:20 vs Law of Moses added because of sin Gal 3:19

God's laws is not grievous 1 John 5:3 vs Law of Moses was contrary to us Colossians 2:14

God's law is called "The Royal Law" James 2:8 vs Law of Moses contained ordinances Eph 2:15

God law judges all men James 2:10-12 vs Law of Moses judges no man Col 2:14-16

God's law is spiritual Romans 7:14 vs Law of Moses was carnal Hebrew 7:16

God's laws brings blessings and peace Proverbs 29:18, Psalm 119:165 vs Law of Moses contained curses Deut 29:20-21 Gal 3:10

God's laws are PERFECT Psalms 19:7 vs Law of Moses made nothing perfect Hebrews 7:19

God's laws are ETERNAL Psalms 89:34, Mathew 5:17-19 vs Law of Moses was temporary Col 2:14, Hebrews 8:13

Hope this helps.

God bless!

 

[Fervent]

Ordinances of divine service, the meat and drink and divers washings, the carnal ordinances, the gifts, sacrifices and worldly sanctuary were a figure imposed UNTIL the time of the reformation. THESE ARE MENTIONED. No mention of the Ten and any moral law, only those of the Sanctuary service and those imposed in respect to sanctifying, purifying of the flesh. None of which purged the conscience (the inner man, who we are) of dead works , works that cause death, sin to serve the living God as in reformation, the reforming that is in Christ Jesus. For this cause He is the mediator of the new. In His cleansing blood, Redemption, and a purge the conscience, our transgressions cleansed. That we that are called might receive the eternal promise, the Law in our hearts and minds, to serve the living God. As the first and all the vessels was dedicated, consecrated with blood so are we through blood of Christ. Vessels made fit for Holy use to serve the Living God. Not Every Precept, injunction of the Law being read. But the Law being in the heart and mind. No longer a we will do, but He has done. For God has said He will put His Laws in our hearts and into our minds.

Yes, I understand what you are trying to claim. But again, where in the Bible is the law categorized and taught to be separated in such a way? And 9:18-20, which identifies what is meant by "the first" that is being replaced with "the new," is a reference to Exodus 24:7-8:

"Then he took the Book of the Covenant and read it to the people. They responded, “We will do everything the Lord has said; we will obey.”

8 Moses then took the blood, sprinkled it on the people and said, “This is the blood of the covenant that the Lord has made with you in accordance with all these words.”"

So what was read in the "Book of the Covenant"? Read Exodus 20-24 to find out. I'll post how it opens:

And God spoke all these words:

2 “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.

3 “You shall have no other gods before me.

4 “You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.

7 “You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name.

 

[klutedavid]

Show in Hebrews 9 and 10 that they are speaking of the moral law. It is all about the sacrificial system so that the moral law can be placed in our hearts and minds.

Read the following verses please.

Hebrews 9:19-20
For when every commandment had been spoken by Moses to all the people according to the Law, he took the blood of the calves and the goats, with water and scarlet wool and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people, saying, “This is the blood of the covenant which God commanded you.”

The text states that Moses spoke of the commandments. Moses sprinkled the book of the covenant, that book listed the ten commandments. Those ten commandments belonged to the old covenant.
The old covenant and the book of the law were both abolished.

Hebrews 10:1
For the Law, since it has only a shadow of the good things to come...

Hebrews 8:6
But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, by as much as He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises.

Hebrews 8:9
Not like the covenant which I made with their fathers On the day when I took them by the hand To lead them out of the land of Egypt; For they did not continue in My covenant, And I did not care for them, says the Lord.

Hebrews 8:13
When He said, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.

Hebrews 7:12
For when the priesthood is changed, of necessity there takes place a change of law also.

 

[klutedavid]

Here is a good breakdown of God's laws vs the law of Moses.


The Ten commandments are called the "law of the Lord" i.e. God's laws Isaiah 5:24 vs Law of Moses is called law of Moses Luke 2:22, 1 Corinthians 9:9

God's laws- written by God on stone Exodus 31:18, 32:16 vs Law of Moses written by Moses in a book Deut 31:24, 2 Chronicles 35:12

God's laws placed inside the ark Exodus 40:20 vs Law of Moses placed on the side of the ark Deut 31:26

God's laws points out sin Romans 7:7, 3:20 vs Law of Moses added because of sin Gal 3:19

God's laws is not grievous 1 John 5:3 vs Law of Moses was contrary to us Colossians 2:14

God's law is called "The Royal Law" James 2:8 vs Law of Moses contained ordinances Eph 2:15

God law judges all men James 2:10-12 vs Law of Moses judges no man Col 2:14-16

God's law is spiritual Romans 7:14 vs Law of Moses was carnal Hebrew 7:16

God's laws brings blessings and peace Proverbs 29:18, Psalm 119:165 vs Law of Moses contained curses Deut 29:20-21 Gal 3:10

God's laws are PERFECT Psalms 19:7 vs Law of Moses made nothing perfect Hebrews 7:19

God's laws are ETERNAL Psalms 89:34, Mathew 5:17-19 vs Law of Moses was temporary Col 2:14, Hebrews 8:13

Hope this helps.

God bless!

What is the royal law?

 

[Fervent]

Here is a good breakdown of God's laws vs the law of Moses.

The Ten commandments are called the "law of the Lord" i.e. God's laws Isaiah 5:24 vs Law of Moses is called law of Moses Luke 2:22, 1 Corinthians 9:9

Where in the text do you get that Isaiah 5:24 is referring to the 10 commandments?

God's laws- written by God on stone Exodus 31:18, 32:16 vs Law of Moses written by Moses in a book Deut 31:24, 2 Chronicles 35:12

Written on stone?

Now if the ministry of death, carved in letters on stone, (2 Cor. 3:7)

What was that about written on stone?

God's laws placed inside the ark Exodus 40:20 vs Law of Moses placed on the side of the ark Deut 31:26

The ark of what?

In the tent of meeting, outside the curtain that shields the ark of the covenant law,(Ex. 27:21 NIV)

What law?

God's laws points out sin Romans 7:7, 3:20 vs Law of Moses added because of sin Gal 3:19

Galatians contrasts what came to Abraham with what came 430 years later. Did the 10 commandments come to Abraham? Or were they given 430 years later?

God's laws is not grievous 1 John 5:3 vs Law of Moses was contrary to us Colossians 2:14

Here you're making a mistake of language. "Law" in 1 John comes from "nomos" of which our modern word "law" is only a loose approximation, with nomos actually meaning rule and having a much broader concept then a codified set of instructions.

God's law is called "The Royal Law" James 2:8 vs Law of Moses contained ordinances Eph 2:15

And what does James expressly state is "the Royal law"? Which of the 10 commandments?

God law judges all men James 2:10-12 vs Law of Moses judges no man Col 2:14-16

So the "law of Moses" condemned without judging? If it judged no man why was it put aside?

God's law is spiritual Romans 7:14 vs Law of Moses was carnal Hebrew 7:16

This is a prime example of the ad hoc manner of eisegesis you must engage in, as I can't imagine how many twists and turns "law" must take in Romans for you to maintain the distinction between the Sinai covenant and the portion you seek to cling to.

God's laws brings blessings and peace Proverbs 29:18, Psalm 119:165 vs Law of Moses contained curses Deut 29:20-21 Gal 3:10

Moses law didn't bring blessings? What of Deuteronomy 28? And where are the divides within the commands identified so that the Israelites could have known which laws they were being given that brought blessings and which laws they were being given that brought curses?

God's laws are PERFECT Psalms 19:7 vs Law of Moses made nothing perfect Hebrews 7:19

Again, you're confusing concepts. Torah is a much broader(and less forensic) concept than the English "law."

God's laws are ETERNAL Psalms 89:34, Mathew 5:17-19 vs Law of Moses was temporary Col 2:14, Hebrews 8:13

"Law and prophets" refers to the Scriptures themselves, not a list of dos and don'ts. What is promised to be everlasting in Psalm 89 is not the regulations given, as those were incumbent on the vassal not on God, it is the central promise of the covenant(I will be their God, and they shall be my people). In fact, psalm 89 anticipates that the people will be unable to keep the portion incumbent upon them(the covenant law, 10 commandments included).

Hope this helps.

God bless![/QUOTE]

So again, where does the Bible explicitly mark off a division in the law given at Sinai? Where does it segment off the 10 commandments and identify them as distinct(as opposed to representative) from the rest of the law given to Moses?