Repent & be baptized for remission of sin dogma parsed

[BrotherJJ]

Baptized twice! Once by John/in preparation to meet the Lord & A 2nd time In Jesus Name for the remission/forgiveness/pardon from sin.

Acts 13:
23 Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:
(MY NOTE: Paul teaches a God given promise in scripture: Thru David a Savior/Messiah/Redeemer would be raised-up & Jesus is the fulfillment of this promise)

24 When John had first preached before his coming the baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel.

(MY NOTE: John the Baptist was sent to preach the "baptism of repentance" (Isa 40:1-11, Ps 85:9-14, Mal 3:1, Matt 11:10, Mk 1:2) to the PEOPLE of ISRAEL. To Prepare the way (for the PEOPLE) to meet their long promised coming Savior/Messiah/Redeemer. Through whom remission/pardon of sin would be realized)

Acts 19:
1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,

2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.

4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

(MY NOTE: Please reread vs 4: John is telling the people to believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. Whom will give remission/forgiveness/pardon of sin)

5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them;

(MY NOTE: Vs 2-4; These Pre Jesus sin atoning payment Jews, baptized by John the Baptist hadn't received. Gods new testament indwelling salvation sealing indwelling Holy Spirit.

Vs 5; These Jews are now baptized in the All Authoritative name that God '"via resurrection power'" placed above All Names (Phil 2:9).

And thru this action of Faith in Jesus once for all time sin atoning sacrifice. They received Christ's new covenant salvation sealing indwelling Holy Spirit, remission/pardon of all sins & Gods promised gift of eternal life)

John's water baptism was a wake-up call & didn't remove/bring remission/pardon/forgive of sin.

Water baptism doesn't remove/bring remission/pardon/forgive sin, repentance doesn't remove/bring remission/pardon/forgive sin.

The only thing that can remove sins stain from a soul is: FAITH. When faith is placed in Jesus once for all time sin atoning sacrifice. Found in Jesus death, (sins required wage/payment due, PAID in FULL) His burial (proof Jesus died) & His resurrection (Father receipt, sins payment received & accepted)

Its not until after Jesus resurrection (Fathers receipt Jesus was Messiah/Sins Redeemer), that every past sin (that had been, Covered Only, by animal sacrifices) received remission/pardon/forgiveness/removal.

Heb 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
(MY NOTE: Without Christ's shed blood there is NO Remission/Pardon for sins.)

Mat 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
(NOTE MY : It's Belief/faith in Christ's sinless shed blood that provides the Remission/Pardon for sins. NOT the act of repentance or water baptism)

Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
(MY NOTE: Forgiveness of sins are realized thru Christ's atoning sacrifice)

Finally,
No place in John's teaching with you find Jesus death & resurrection. In Acts 2 Peter preaches todays message. Jesus died, was buried & rose again. Whereby Christ's new covenant salvation sealing indwelling Holy Spirit is given to believers.

 

[Butterball1]

Baptized twice! Once by John/in preparation to meet the Lord & A 2nd time In Jesus Name for the remission/forgiveness/pardon from sin.

Acts 13:
23 Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:
(MY NOTE: Paul teaches a God given promise in scripture: Thru David a Savior/Messiah/Redeemer would be raised-up & Jesus is the fulfillment of this promise)

24 When John had first preached before his coming the baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel.

(MY NOTE: John the Baptist was sent to preach the "baptism of repentance" (Isa 40:1-11, Ps 85:9-14, Mal 3:1, Matt 11:10, Mk 1:2) to the PEOPLE of ISRAEL. To Prepare the way (for the PEOPLE) to meet their long promised coming Savior/Messiah/Redeemer. Through whom remission/pardon of sin would be realized)

Acts 19:
1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,

2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.

4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

(MY NOTE: Please reread vs 4: John is telling the people to believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. Whom will give remission/forgiveness/pardon of sin)

5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them;

(MY NOTE: Vs 2-4; These Pre Jesus sin atoning payment Jews, baptized by John the Baptist hadn't received. Gods new testament indwelling salvation sealing indwelling Holy Spirit.

Vs 5; These Jews are now baptized in the All Authoritative name that God '"via resurrection power'" placed above All Names (Phil 2:9).

And thru this action of Faith in Jesus once for all time sin atoning sacrifice. They received Christ's new covenant salvation sealing indwelling Holy Spirit, remission/pardon of all sins & Gods promised gift of eternal life)

John's water baptism was a wake-up call & didn't remove/bring remission/pardon/forgive of sin.

Water baptism doesn't remove/bring remission/pardon/forgive sin, repentance doesn't remove/bring remission/pardon/forgive sin.

The only thing that can remove sins stain from a soul is: FAITH. When faith is placed in Jesus once for all time sin atoning sacrifice. Found in Jesus death, (sins required wage/payment due, PAID in FULL) His burial (proof Jesus died) & His resurrection (Father receipt, sins payment received & accepted)

Its not until after Jesus resurrection (Fathers receipt Jesus was Messiah/Sins Redeemer), that every past sin (that had been, Covered Only, by animal sacrifices) received remission/pardon/forgiveness/removal.

Heb 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
(MY NOTE: Without Christ's shed blood there is NO Remission/Pardon for sins.)

Mat 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
(NOTE MY : It's Belief/faith in Christ's sinless shed blood that provides the Remission/Pardon for sins. NOT the act of repentance or water baptism)

Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
(MY NOTE: Forgiveness of sins are realized thru Christ's atoning sacrifice)

Finally,
No place in John's teaching with you find Jesus death & resurrection. In Acts 2 Peter preaches todays message. Jesus died, was buried & rose again. Whereby Christ's new covenant salvation sealing indwelling Holy Spirit is given to believers.

I do not find those who were baptized with John's baptism while it was still in effect had to be rebaptized. John's baptism ended and Christ's baptism began in Acts 2. Therefore those in Acts 19 that were baptized with John's baptism had to be rebaptized with Christ's baptism for John's baptism was already invalid by that time. They did not know Christ had even come and accomplished His mission hence they did not have proper faith in Christ and therefore needed to be baptized. So nothing here indicates that John's baptism was only temporary in effect. So again, I do not find those who were baptized with John's baptism while it was still valid had to be rebaptized.

--John's baptism was for the remission of sins, (Mark 1:4). So those baptized with John's baptism would have their sin remitted (salvation). Why then would they need their sins remitted a second time (saved a second time) with Christ's baptism? Either John's baptism remitted sins or it did not. Since it did there is no need or possibility to remit sins that have already been remitted.

--John was to make ready a prepared people for the Lord, Luke 1:17. If those baptized with John's baptism had to be rebaptized then in what sense could it be said they were ready or prepared? What's would then be the difference between be ready and prepared and not ready and prepared. Nothing indicates they became unready and unprepared by Acts 2.

--John's baptism allowed entrance into the kingdom, (Matthew 21:31-32). So those already baptized with John's baptism would be in the kingdom (church) when it arrived therfore did not need to be rebaptized with Christ's baptism to gain entrance into the kingdom. Those baptized in Acts 2 would have been "added" (Acts of the Apostles 2:41) to those who were already in the kingdom via John's baptism.

Further reading:
Were John's Disciples Required To Be Reimmersed?

 

[BrotherJJ]

John's baptism was for the remission of sins, (Mark 1:4). So those baptized with John's baptism would have their sin remitted (salvation). Why then would they need their sins remitted a second time (saved a second time) with Christ's baptism? Either John's baptism remitted sins or it did not. Since it did there is no need or possibility to remit sins that have already been remitted.

I respectfully disagree:

Pre Jesus sin atonement, sins could only be covered & not taken away/removed

John's water baptism didn't/couldn't remove/bring remission/pardon/forgive of sin.

Water baptism, John's or otherwise, don't/can't, remove/bring remission/pardon/forgive sin.

Jn 1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!
(MY NOTE: Jesus is the Lamb of God who takes away sin, not John the Baptist)

Heavens requirement to purge/remove sin is blood:

Lev 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you on the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement, by reason of the life [which it represents]
(MY NOTE: This verse is referring to OT Levitical law animal sacrifice atonement, innocent blood COVERING the sins of the guilty.)

Heb 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
(MY NOTE: Without Christ's shed blood there is NO Remission/Pardon for sins.)

Mat 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
(NOTE MY : It's Belief/faith in Christ's sinless shed blood that provides the Remission/Pardon for sins. NOT the act of repentance or water baptism)

Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
(MY NOTE: Forgiveness of sins are realized thru Christ's atoning sacrifice)

KJV Dictionary Definition: PROPITIATION, n. propisia'shon.
2. In theology, the atonement or atoning sacrifice offered to God to assuage his wrath and render him propitious to sinners. Christ is the propitiation for the sins of men. Rom.3. 1 John 2.
PROPITIABLE - Definition from the KJV Dictionary

Amplified Bible
Rom 3:25 whom God displayed publicly [before the eyes of the world] as a [life-giving] sacrifice of atonement and reconciliation (propitiation) by His blood [to be received] through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness [which demands punishment for sin], because in His forbearance [His deliberate restraint] He passed over the sins previously committed [before Jesus’ crucifixion].
Bible Gateway passage: Romans 3 - Amplified Bible

1 Jn 2:2 And He [that same Jesus] is the propitiation for our sins [the atoning sacrifice that holds back the wrath of God that would otherwise be directed at us because of our sinful nature—our worldliness, our lifestyle]; and not for ours alone, but also for [the sins of all believers throughout] the whole world.
Bible Gateway passage: 1 John 2 - Amplified Bible

1 Jn 4:10 In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation [that is, the atoning sacrifice, and the satisfying offering] for our sins [fulfilling God’s requirement for justice against sin and placating His wrath].
Bible Gateway passage: 1 John 4 - Amplified Bible

Additionally
Jacob receives PREPATATION instructions before meeting the Lord at the alter

Gen 35:
1 And God said unto Jacob, Arise, go up to Bethel, and dwell there: and make there an altar unto God,
2 Then Jacob said unto his household, and to all that were with him, Put away the strange gods that are among you, and be clean, and change your garments:
(NOTE: Jacob was to PREPARE/wash-up & change his cloths before meeting the Lord at the alter)

ABLUTION - JewishEncyclopedia.com jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/338-ablution
There are three kinds of Ablution recognized in Biblical and rabbinical law: (1) Washing of the hands, (2) washing of the hands and feet, and (3) immersion of the whole body in water.

Levitical law required PREPATATION/purifying/washing/instructions on many occasions: Ex 39:4; Ex 30:19-21; Ex 40:12; Lev 6:27; Lev 13:54, Lev 13:58; Lev 14:8-9; Levs 15:16; Lev 16:4, Lev 16:24; Lev 22:6.

The Lord gives Moses PREPATATION instructions before meeting the Lord on the morrow.

Ex 19:
9 And the Lord said unto Moses, Lo, I come unto thee in a thick cloud, that the people may hear when I speak with thee, and believe thee for ever. And Moses told the words of the people unto the Lord.
(NOTE: The Lord tells Moses I will appear is a thick cloud & speak to the people)

10 And the Lord said unto Moses, Go unto the people, and sanctify them to day and to morrow, and let them wash their clothes,
(NOTE: In preparation of meeting me, have the people clean & ready to meet me)

14 And Moses went down from the mount unto the people, and sanctified the people; and they washed their clothes.
(NOTE: Moses carries out the Lords PREPATATION instructions)

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Baptized twice! Once by John/in preparation to meet the Lord & A 2nd time In Jesus Name for the remission/forgiveness/pardon from sin.

Acts 13:
23 Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:
(MY NOTE: Paul teaches a God given promise in scripture: Thru David a Savior/Messiah/Redeemer would be raised-up & Jesus is the fulfillment of this promise)

24 When John had first preached before his coming the baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel.

(MY NOTE: John the Baptist was sent to preach the "baptism of repentance" (Isa 40:1-11, Ps 85:9-14, Mal 3:1, Matt 11:10, Mk 1:2) to the PEOPLE of ISRAEL. To Prepare the way (for the PEOPLE) to meet their long promised coming Savior/Messiah/Redeemer. Through whom remission/pardon of sin would be realized)

Acts 19:
1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,

2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.

4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

(MY NOTE: Please reread vs 4: John is telling the people to believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. Whom will give remission/forgiveness/pardon of sin)

5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them;

(MY NOTE: Vs 2-4; These Pre Jesus sin atoning payment Jews, baptized by John the Baptist hadn't received. Gods new testament indwelling salvation sealing indwelling Holy Spirit.

Vs 5; These Jews are now baptized in the All Authoritative name that God '"via resurrection power'" placed above All Names (Phil 2:9).

And thru this action of Faith in Jesus once for all time sin atoning sacrifice. They received Christ's new covenant salvation sealing indwelling Holy Spirit, remission/pardon of all sins & Gods promised gift of eternal life)

John's water baptism was a wake-up call & didn't remove/bring remission/pardon/forgive of sin.

Water baptism doesn't remove/bring remission/pardon/forgive sin, repentance doesn't remove/bring remission/pardon/forgive sin.

The only thing that can remove sins stain from a soul is: FAITH. When faith is placed in Jesus once for all time sin atoning sacrifice. Found in Jesus death, (sins required wage/payment due, PAID in FULL) His burial (proof Jesus died) & His resurrection (Father receipt, sins payment received & accepted)

Its not until after Jesus resurrection (Fathers receipt Jesus was Messiah/Sins Redeemer), that every past sin (that had been, Covered Only, by animal sacrifices) received remission/pardon/forgiveness/removal.

Heb 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
(MY NOTE: Without Christ's shed blood there is NO Remission/Pardon for sins.)

Mat 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
(NOTE MY : It's Belief/faith in Christ's sinless shed blood that provides the Remission/Pardon for sins. NOT the act of repentance or water baptism)

Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
(MY NOTE: Forgiveness of sins are realized thru Christ's atoning sacrifice)

Finally,
No place in John's teaching with you find Jesus death & resurrection. In Acts 2 Peter preaches todays message. Jesus died, was buried & rose again. Whereby Christ's new covenant salvation sealing indwelling Holy Spirit is given to believers.

John the Baptist made pretty clear the distinction. His is water and Jesus Christ of Nazareth is Holy Spirit.
"11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. 12 His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”

 

[Butterball1]

John's water baptism didn't/couldn't remove/bring remission/pardon/forgive of sin.

Mark 1:4
"John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins."


Hebrews 9:22
"And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission."

John's baptism DID remit sins and it did occur BEFORE Christ shed His blood. John's baptism therefore remitted sins in promise looking towards the cross of Christ. Those baptized with John's baptism did have their sins remitted when Christ finally shed His blood on the cross...(Hebrews 9:15) Christ's blood flowed back to remit the sins of those under the OT law that were faithful to God including those baptized with John's baptism. Those who obediently submitted to John's baptism were the ones Christ redeemed when He died on the cross, (Galatians 4:4-5).

Those not faith therefore not baptized with John's baptism did not have their sin forgiven when Christ died and shed His blood, (Luke 7:30). If those Pharisees could be saved while not being baptized then they would be saved while rejecting God.

So one one hand, there was forgiveness under the OT law BEFORE Christ shed His blood, Mark 1:4; Job 1:5; Leviticus 4:31; Mark 2:5. So the issue is how could there be forgiveness of sins BEFORE Christ's death and shed blood?

No forgiveness without Christ
There could have been no forgiveness available for fallen humanity without the historical incarnation and ultimate death of the Son of God.

Without the shedding of blood, there would have been no pardon for sin (Heb. 9:22). But the blood of animals could not provide actual atonement for sin (Heb. 10:4).

Those animal sacrifices under the former dispensations were typical (pictorial representations) of the “lamb of God” who was to come and provide a sacrificial offering for humanity (Jn. 1:29).

Had Jesus not died at Calvary, those offerings of ages gone by would have been worthless.

God’s Certainty
On the other hand, God knew that the death of his Son was certain ultimately, and on that basis, and that of his own fidelity to keep his promise of redemption, he could — and did — grant forgiveness to the faithful of those previous ages.

Conclusion
Practically speaking Noah, Abraham, Moses, and the saints of those earlier eras enjoyed the blessing of pardon for sin.

Ultimately, though, forgiveness was achieved at the cross.

Two different senses are under consideration:

forgiveness contingently received based on the future death of Jesus, and
forgiveness completely accomplished at the cross.

F. F. Bruce, in slightly different language, describes the matter as follows:
“The first covenant provided a measure of atonement and remission for sins committed under it, but it was incapable of providing ‘eternal redemption’; this was a blessing which had to await the inauguration of the new covenant, which embodies God’s promise to his people, ‘I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more’ (Jer. 31:34)” (1990, 230)."

When the theme is viewed from complementary vantage points, there is no difficulty in resolving the supposed conflict.
Was There Forgiveness Under the Law of Moses?

So John's baptism, though it took place before Christ shed His blood, could forgive sins based on the certainty of Christ's future death and shed blood at the cross.

 

[bling]

I do not find those who were baptized with John's baptism while it was still in effect had to be rebaptized. John's baptism ended and Christ's baptism began in Acts 2. Therefore those in Acts 19 that were baptized with John's baptism had to be rebaptized with Christ's baptism for John's baptism was already invalid by that time. They did not know Christ had even come and accomplished His mission hence they did not have proper faith in Christ and therefore needed to be baptized. So nothing here indicates that John's baptism was only temporary in effect. So again, I do not find those who were baptized with John's baptism while it was still valid had to be rebaptized.

--John's baptism was for the remission of sins, (Mark 1:4). So those baptized with John's baptism would have their sin remitted (salvation). Why then would they need their sins remitted a second time (saved a second time) with Christ's baptism? Either John's baptism remitted sins or it did not. Since it did there is no need or possibility to remit sins that have already been remitted.

--John was to make ready a prepared people for the Lord, Luke 1:17. If those baptized with John's baptism had to be rebaptized then in what sense could it be said they were ready or prepared? What's would then be the difference between be ready and prepared and not ready and prepared. Nothing indicates they became unready and unprepared by Acts 2.

--John's baptism allowed entrance into the kingdom, (Matthew 21:31-32). So those already baptized with John's baptism would be in the kingdom (church) when it arrived therfore did not need to be rebaptized with Christ's baptism to gain entrance into the kingdom. Those baptized in Acts 2 would have been "added" (Acts of the Apostles 2:41) to those who were already in the kingdom via John's baptism.

Further reading:
Were John's Disciples Required To Be Reimmersed?

There is just a flat-out number issue with saying: “Those baptized with John’s baptism did not have to be rebaptized and already were part of the saved (church)”.

Acts 2: 41 Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.

Acts 2: And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved.

Acts 4:4… so the number of men who believed grew to about five thousand.

Acts 6: 7 So the word of God spread. The number of disciples in Jerusalem increased rapidly…

Luke 7:29 (All the people, even the tax collectors, when they heard Jesus’ words, acknowledged that God’s way was right, because they had been baptized by John.

Matt. 21:26 …we are afraid of the people, for they all hold that John was a prophet.”

The masses in Jerusalem and Judea at least were all John baptized prior to Christ going to the cross, so how can there be only 5000 men saved in Jerusalem prior to Steven’s stoning?

Another big question: How can a person baptized with John's baptism physically experience with Christ: the death, burial and resurection of Christ, prior to Christ's death? That has helped me with my spiritual growth and I needed it.

 

[BrotherJJ]

KJV Dictionary Definition REMISSION:
Forgiveness; pardon; that is, the giving up of the punishment due to a crime; as the remission of sins. Matt. 26. Heb. 9.
(NOTE: Remission = FORGIVENESS; PARDON as the remission of sins.)

Thayer's Greek Lexicon, G859: ἄφεσις - ἄφεσις, ἀφέσεως, ἡ (ἀφίημι); Remission:
1. release, as from bondage, imprisonment, etc.: Luke 4:18 (19) (Isaiah 61:1f; Polybius 1, 79, 12, etc.).
2. ἄφεσις ἁμαρτιῶν forgiveness, pardon, of sins (properly, the letting them go, as if they had not been committed (see at length Trench, § xxxiii.)), remission of their penalty:
(NOTE: Remission = FORGIVENESS, PARDON, of sins (properly, the letting them go, as if they had not been committed.)

Strong's Concordance G859 Remission: aphesis: dismissal, release, fig. pardon
Definition: dismissal, release, pardon
Usage: a sending away, a letting go, a release, pardon, complete forgiveness.
(NOTE: Remission = Definition: dismissal, release, a sending away, a letting go, a release, PARDON, COMPLETE FORGIVENESS)

Lev 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you on the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement, by reason of the life [which it represents]
(MY NOTE: This verse is referring to OT Levitical law animal sacrifice atonement, innocent blood COVERING the sins of the guilty.)

Heb 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
(MY NOTE: Without Christ's shed blood there is NO Remission/Pardon for sins.)

Mat 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
(NOTE MY : It's Belief/faith in Christ's sinless shed blood that provides the Remission/Pardon for sins. NOT the act of repentance or water baptism)

Act 5:31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Act 13:38 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:

Act 26:18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

Eph 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
(MY MOTE: Thru faith in Christ's sin atoning BLOOD sacrifice & resurrestion forgiveness/remission of sins is given.)

Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
(MY MOTE: Thru faith in Christ's sin atoning BLOOD sacrifice & resurrestion forgiveness/remission of sins is given.)

Rev 1:5 5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
(MY NOTE: It was Jesus, not John the Baptist, that washes believers from their sins in/with his own blood)

Mk 2:
7 Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?
(MY NOTE: Jesus was/is God, John the Baptist wasn't)

10 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (he saith to the sick of the palsy,)
(MY NOTE: Jesus was the Son of mam, John the Baptist wasn't)

 

[BrotherJJ]

Throughout scripture faith in God is the key to salvation (Gen 15:6, Heb 11)

OP cites this verse:
Acts 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
(MY NOTE: John the Baptist tells them to repent = You're off course repent/return to the Lord your God. And BELIEVE on your coming Messiah/Redeemer & thru faith in Him your sins will be forgiven)

BTW: This message is 100% to/for Israel only. John doesn't baptize any gentiles in the wilderness of Judah.

Mosaic law mandated many ceremonial water purification rituals/ablutions:

One piece of furniture in the Temple. Was the Laver, or Bronze Basin. A large bowl filled with fresh water. The priests were to wash, hands & feet before entering the Holy Place & before & after many other duties as well.

Every year the High Priest was required to begin the Day of Atonement: At first dawn to bath & put on his golden priestly garments. This day the High Priest was required to: wash/bath/full/immersion/Mikveh 5 times. Other Priestly duties that day required (1/2 Mikveh) the ceremonial cleansing/purifying/washing of his hands & feet 10 times!

Baptisms origin:

Baptisms origin is found in Mikvah. Used in ritual ceremonial washing/cleansing/purifying. Someone who was impure or ceremonially unclean before immersion would be pure/ceremonially clean after immersion in a mikvah.

The word Mikvah means "collection" & refers to a collection of water used by the Jews for ceremonial washing/purifying/cleansing & essential in any Synagogue. The Temple had many mikvah baths.

A mikvah had to have a source of running water, such as a spring, or fresh water, such as rain. Water from pools & ponds were regarded as unsuitable, for the cleansing/purifying process.

Full immersion Mikveh examples: women before marriage (Bride of Christ), after child bearing, her monthly cycle, men after a sexual discharge, contact with any dead animal or person, every priest for ordination, anyone wanting to convert to Judaism, eating unclean foods. Contact with a gentile could make a Jew ceremonially UNCLEAN, to name a few.

Immersion done in a Mikveh wasn't for physical cleaning. That would have be done beforehand. It was for Spiritual cleansing, a purification ceremony.

When a Jew was deemed ceremonially UNCLEAN/impure PIROR to immersion. AFTER immersion they'd be ceremonially clean/pure. There were times a waiting period of 12 hrs, up to a week was also required. See Lev chapter 15 for unclean remedies

Red Heifer & purifying of the flesh

Heb 9:
13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Heb 13:
11 For the bodies of those beasts, whose blood is brought into the sanctuary by the high priest for sin, are burned without the camp.

12 Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate.

(MY NOTE: This cow sacrifice was to be completely burned to ashes. The priest mixed the ashes with cedar wood, scarlet, the hyssop, & water (Num 19:6). The end product was used for ritual/ceremonial water purifications.

John's ministry was a wake-up call to repent/return to the Lord their God & a long practiced ceremonial water purification in preparing to meet the Lord (In Post #3 I cited a couple examples Jacob Gen 35:1-2 & Moses Ex 19:9;14). John's baptism didn't remove/bring remission/pardon/forgive of sin.

No water baptism can remove/bring remission/pardon/forgive sin, repentance doesn't remove/bring remission/pardon/forgive sin.

The only thing that can remove sins stain from a soul is: FAITH. When faith is placed in Jesus once for all time sin atoning sacrifice. Found in Jesus death, (sins required wage/payment due, PAID in FULL) His burial (proof Jesus died) & His resurrection (Father receipt, sins payment received & accepted)

Its not until after Jesus resurrection (Fathers receipt Jesus was Messiah/Sins Redeemer), that every past sin (that had been, Covered Only, by animal sacrifices) received remission/pardon/forgiveness/removal.

Heb 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
(MY NOTE: Without Christ's shed blood there is NO Remission/Pardon for sins.)

Mat 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
(NOTE MY : It's Belief/faith in Christ's sinless shed blood that provides the Remission/Pardon for sins. NOT the act of repentance or water baptism)

Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
(MY NOTE: Forgiveness of sins are realized, thru FAITH in Christ's atoning sacrifice & resurrection)

Finally,
No place in John's teaching with you find today's new covenant message of salvation = Jesus death, burial & resurrection (1 Cor 15:1-4) accessed by Faith Rom 5:1-2)

 

[Butterball1]

There is just a flat-out number issue with saying: “Those baptized with John’s baptism did not have to be rebaptized and already were part of the saved (church)”.

Acts 2: 41 Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.

Acts 2: And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved.

Acts 4:4… so the number of men who believed grew to about five thousand.

Acts 6: 7 So the word of God spread. The number of disciples in Jerusalem increased rapidly…

Luke 7:29 (All the people, even the tax collectors, when they heard Jesus’ words, acknowledged that God’s way was right, because they had been baptized by John.

Matt. 21:26 …we are afraid of the people, for they all hold that John was a prophet.”

The masses in Jerusalem and Judea at least were all John baptized prior to Christ going to the cross, so how can there be only 5000 men saved in Jerusalem prior to Steven’s stoning?

Another big question: How can a person baptized with John's baptism physically experience with Christ: the death, burial and resurection of Christ, prior to Christ's death? That has helped me with my spiritual growth and I needed it.

Those 3000 of Acts 2 were "added" to those who were already in the church as the Apostles and other baptized with John's baptism. ('added' carries the idea of adding to what already exists).

Mark 1:4; Job 1:5; Leviticus 4:31; Mark 2:5 do all speak of forgiveness of sins BEFORE Christ's death. Even Jesus forgave sins BEFORE His death, (Mark 2:5). The issue is in what sense was there forgiveness of sins prior to Christ's death. As shown already, their sins were forgiven in promise, that being, God's promises are so certain, along with the certainty of Christ's death, forgiveness is spoken of as already occurred (see Romans 4:17) yet forgiveness was accomplished in reality at the time Christ died.

In Romans 6 with Christ's water baptism there is a death (old man of sin dies) a "burial" in water from which one is "raised up from" whereby then one walks in newness of life (born again). In John's baptism there was also a burial in water from which one is raised up to walk in in newness of life having had sins forgiven in promise. John's baptism was unto repentance (Matthew 3:11) those baptized with John's baptism had died to the old man of sin living a new changed, repentant life. John 3, Nicodemus had not been born again. Was that because he had been rejecting John's baptism as other Pharisees, Luke 7:30)?

 

[bling]

Those 3000 of Acts 2 were "added" to those who were already in the church as the Apostles and other baptized with John's baptism. ('added' carries the idea of adding to what already exists).

Right and we start with the 120 in the upper room.

Mark 1:4; Job 1:5; Leviticus 4:31; Mark 2:5 do all speak of forgiveness of sins BEFORE Christ's death. Even Jesus forgave sins BEFORE His death, (Mark 2:5). The issue is in what sense was there forgiveness of sins prior to Christ's death. As shown already, their sins were forgiven in promise, that being, God's promises are so certain, along with the certainty of Christ's death, forgiveness is spoken of as already occurred (see Romans 4:17) yet forgiveness was accomplished in reality at the time Christ died.

I take Christ at His word and the Bible to be true. Sins could be forgiven without the need for Christ to go to the cross. Go back and read Lev. 5 where you have Atonement being done for very minor sins (unintentional sins) and after the atonement was done correctly those sins were forgiven, without any second atonement sacrifice (it would be silly to say there had to be two sacrifices).

In Romans 6 with Christ's water baptism there is a death (old man of sin dies) a "burial" in water from which one is "raised up from" whereby then one walks in newness of life (born again). In John's baptism there was also a burial in water from which one is raised up to walk in in newness of life having had sins forgiven in promise. John's baptism was unto repentance (Matthew 3:11) those baptized with John's baptism had died to the old man of sin living a new changed, repentant life. John 3, Nicodemus had not been born again. Was that because he had been rejecting John's baptism as other Pharisees, Luke 7:30)?

I totally agree with the idea Nicodemus had not been baptized by John’s baptism and that is what he needed to do to be “born again” at that time.

The Baptism of John was a clear outward sign, time and place of the individual’s new commitment (A big change) in going from a dependence on salvation by works to a salvation by the mercy (Love) of God in forgiving them that truly repent (change their ways). The huge differences between John’s Baptism and Christian Baptism are in the commitment to Jesus personally as the suffering Messiah. Until Christ went to the cross the Jews were very much expecting a Messiah, but one that would physically rule over the world from Jerusalem forever. To go from trusting in an all-powerful Jewish ruling Messiah, to a: humble, servant of all, murdered on a cross, spiritual Messiah is a huge change in thinking and commitment. The 12 apostles prior to the cross were deeply committed to Christ, but they thought Christ was going to have an earthly Jewish Kingdom, they could be part of, so did the multitude that received John’s Baptism understand Christ as the suffering Messiah?

John was preparing the way for Christ and not establishing a “new” way, the prophets of Old taught salvation by God’s forgiveness (which has always been the only way). To put your trust in a powerful physical Jewish Messiah (the thinking prior to the cross) and put your trust in Christ is a huge difference.

 

[Butterball1]

I take Christ at His word and the Bible to be true. Sins could be forgiven without the need for Christ to go to the cross. Go back and read Lev. 5 where you have Atonement being done for very minor sins (unintentional sins) and after the atonement was done correctly those sins were forgiven, without any second atonement sacrifice (it would be silly to say there had to be two sacrifices).

BEFORE Christ's death and shed blood, sins would be forgiven in promise looking to when Christ would die for those under the OT law still needed to be redeemed (Galatians 4:4-5). The promise of forgiveness of sins would not be reality until Christ did actually die on the cross.

 

[CatsRule2020]

Acts 19:1-5


1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,

2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.

4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.


At that time it may have been common for people to confuse John's disciples for the disciples of Jesus because their behaviour would have been similar. This was why the Apostle Paul asks the question. When the Apostles were engaged in their missionary work they were continually laying on hands to bestow the (power) referred to the Holy Spirit. Hearing that these followers were defenseless in the wilderness with no power to back up their preaching, after he water baptized them under the authority of Christ, he laid hands on them in order for them to receive power (the Holy Spirit) to back up their preaching.
It is always the personal Holy Spirit that wields His sword (the word of God) to convict of sin, and the instant the person is convicted of sin, He resides within the person to motivate them to go forward to obey the commandments of Christ.

 

[bling]

BEFORE Christ's death and shed blood, sins would be forgiven in promise looking to when Christ would die for those under the OT law still needed to be redeemed (Galatians 4:4-5). The promise of forgiveness of sins would not be reality until Christ did actually die on the cross.

The Old Testament never says: “I will forgive you some day”, but says: “your sins are forgiven”.

Jews went through a complete atonement process with no mention of a repeated atonement process later in (Lev. 5) and the Bible says these minor sins were forgiven.

Let’s look at Gal. 4: 2 The heir is subject to guardians and trustees until the time set by his father. 3 So also, when we were underage, we were in slavery under the elemental spiritual forces of the world. 4 But when the set time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those under the law, that we might receive adoption to sonship. 6 Because you are his sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, “Abba, Father.” 7 So you are no longer a slave, but God’s child; and since you are his child, God has made you also an heir.

Context is hugely important, because this is a letter specifically written to the Christians in Galatia, so Paul is not making some philosophical statement, but a message for the Galatians. Yes, we can read their mail and learn from it, but how would they understand it since Paul is trying to best communicate to them.

There appears to be some Christians in Galatia who have accepted Judaizing teaching and are trying to follow the Old Law.

Notice Paul does not say: “Redeem those who were under the Law”, but says, “Redeem those under the Law”, if the person is already dead, they are not under the Law. Paul also says: We (including himself) as being slaves under the Law.

You seem the be trying to say: “Christ freed all Jews who have ever lived (and even died) under the Law”, when Paul is just addressing his immediate audience.

How can they have been previously slaves, if Christ was always available to set them free?

Paul is making a clear distinction between being under the Law and being set free (Christianity). If both under the Law and those free have everything equal (forgiven of sins through Christ) then there is no contrast, but that is not taught in the Old Testament. It is when Christ comes, freedom begins.

The “Law” did not save anyone, but did teach them how they needed to rely on God’s Love and mercy.

 

[BrotherJJ]

OT Hebrew word for atonement is kaphar & means "to cover over".

The Levitical system didn't offer a permanent solution to sin. It required repeated daily animal sacrifices (over & over & over), a covering, not a complete removal of sin.

Picture God's forbearance as a credit card, ultimately sins debt owed requires a payment in full.

Source Amplified Bible

Heb 10:

4 for it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins

12 whereas Christ, having offered the one sacrifice [the all-sufficient sacrifice of Himself] for sins for all time, sat down [signifying the completion of atonement for sin] at the right hand of God [the position of honor],

13 waiting from that time onward until his enemies are made a footstool for His feet.

14 For by the one offering He has perfected forever and completely cleansed those who are being sanctified [bringing each believer to spiritual completion and maturity].

15 And the Holy Spirit also adds His testimony to us [in confirmation of this]; for after having said,

16 “This is the covenant that I will make with them After those days, says the Lord:
I will imprint My laws upon their heart, and on their mind I will inscribe them [producing an inward change],”

He then says,

17 “And their sins and their lawless acts I will remember no more [no longer holding their sins against them].”

18 Now where there is [absolute] forgiveness and complete cancellation of the penalty of these things, there is no longer any offering [to be made to atone] for sin.
Bible Gateway passage: Hebrews 10 - Amplified Bible

(MY NOTE: Neither water baptism nor OT animal sacrifices could/can "Take Away" sin. It's only Christ/God's sinless blood & faith placed in it, that conquered & "Takes Away" sin. Providing absolute forgiveness/remission/pardon/complete cancellation/Taking Away of ALL the believers/Past/Present/Future sin/ Once for all time)

Jn 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming to him and said, “Look! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!
Bible Gateway passage: John 1 - Amplified Bible

(MY NOTE: John the Baptist proclaims: It's Jesus that "Takes Away" the worlds sin.)

When you read OT & it says through these sacrifices your sins will be forgiven. The question is, WHEN, will they be forgiven. When you read in the NT: for the remission of sin. Same question, WHEN,
will this remission = forgiveness/pardon/complete cancellation/Taking Away of sin happen?

Answer: When faith is placed a sinless God/Christ's once for all time sin sacrifice & resurrection!

Acts 19:4 Paul said, “John performed a baptism of repentance, continually telling the people to believe in Him who was coming after him, that is, [to confidently accept and joyfully believe] in Jesus [the Messiah and Savior].
Acts 19 AMP - Paul at Ephesus - It happened that - Bible Gateway

MY NOTE: BELIEVE in your coming Messiah/Redeemer. Later, Peter (Acts 2) has everyone be baptized in the ALL Authoritative Name. Every meaningful baptism must invoke BELIEF/FAITH in the Name that is above every name(Phil 2:9). Water is just water, Faith in the Name of Jesus, His sacrifice & resurrection is Everything!

All praise, glory & honor be to our great God & Savior, Jesus the Christ! AMEN & amen...

 

[Butterball1]

The Old Testament never says: “I will forgive you some day”, but says: “your sins are forgiven”.

Jews went through a complete atonement process with no mention of a repeated atonement process later in (Lev. 5) and the Bible says these minor sins were forgiven.

Let’s look at Gal. 4: 2 The heir is subject to guardians and trustees until the time set by his father. 3 So also, when we were underage, we were in slavery under the elemental spiritual forces of the world. 4 But when the set time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those under the law, that we might receive adoption to sonship. 6 Because you are his sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, “Abba, Father.” 7 So you are no longer a slave, but God’s child; and since you are his child, God has made you also an heir.

Context is hugely important, because this is a letter specifically written to the Christians in Galatia, so Paul is not making some philosophical statement, but a message for the Galatians. Yes, we can read their mail and learn from it, but how would they understand it since Paul is trying to best communicate to them.

There appears to be some Christians in Galatia who have accepted Judaizing teaching and are trying to follow the Old Law.

Notice Paul does not say: “Redeem those who were under the Law”, but says, “Redeem those under the Law”, if the person is already dead, they are not under the Law. Paul also says: We (including himself) as being slaves under the Law.

You seem the be trying to say: “Christ freed all Jews who have ever lived (and even died) under the Law”, when Paul is just addressing his immediate audience.

How can they have been previously slaves, if Christ was always available to set them free?

Paul is making a clear distinction between being under the Law and being set free (Christianity). If both under the Law and those free have everything equal (forgiven of sins through Christ) then there is no contrast, but that is not taught in the Old Testament. It is when Christ comes, freedom begins.

The “Law” did not save anyone, but did teach them how they needed to rely on God’s Love and mercy.

Hebrews 9:22 says without the shedding of blood there is no remission. This verse refers to the shedding of Christ's blood that can remit sins for those OT animal sacrifices could not forgive sins, (Hebrews 10:3-4). If they could forgive sins then there would be no need to stop offering them. If justification and forgiveness of sins can be found apart from Christ, then Christ died in vain, (Galatians 2:21). So there was forgiveness in promise based upon the certainty of God's word/promises with sin forgiven in realty at the cross.

If the sins of those under the OT law were forgiven in realty then there it could not be possible for Christ to redeem them if they were already redeemed (Galatians 4:4-5). Though many of those under the OT law (as David) had died by Paul's time, their sins were still forgiven at the cross...."And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance." (Hebrews 9:15). At the cross, Christ's blood flowed backwards to cover the sins of all those OT characters who were fairhful to God. Hence there was no sin ever committed at any point in time that would be forgiven apart from Christ's atonement...."Whom (Christ) God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;" (Romans 3:25) So Christ made atonement for sins under the past OT law, something the OT law could not do itself, (Galatians 3:11; Hebrews 10:1-4).

John's water baptism remitted (Mark 1:4) sins looking towards the cross and Christ's water baptism (Acts 2:38) remits sin looking back at the cross. Again, Christ's blood flowed back to atone for the sins of those hat were under the OT law as if flows forward to atone for our sins today who are under the NT law.

 

[bling]

Hebrews 9:22 says without the shedding of blood there is no remission. This verse refers to the shedding of Christ's blood that can remit sins for those OT animal sacrifices could not forgive sins, (Hebrews 10:3-4). If they could forgive sins then there would be no need to stop offering them. If justification and forgiveness of sins can be found apart from Christ, then Christ died in vain, (Galatians 2:21). So there was forgiveness in promise based upon the certainty of God's word/promises with sin forgiven in realty at the cross.

Hebrew 9:22 is talking about cleansing. Without the cleansing (making Holy) of everything needed to be made Spiritual, forgiveness will not work. Everything in the temple was cleansed with blood and according to scripture made holy.

Heb. 9: 13 The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that they are outwardly clean.

There is nothing being said about Christ’s blood being needed.


The writer of Hebrews is not talking about minor unintentional sins one might give little thought to committing, but being made perfect.

Heb. 10: For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship.

What Jesus did that could not happen prior to the cross and is never addressed in the Old Testament is clearing the conscience of the sinner:

Heb. 9: 9 This is an illustration for the present time, indicating that the gifts and sacrifices being offered were not able to clear the conscience of the worshiper.

Heb. 9: 14… cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God!


If Christ’s sacrifice took away sins prior to the cross then Christ would not be “to do away with sin”, but be showing: “sin had been done away with”.

Heb. 9:26… But he has appeared once for all at the culmination of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself.

You seem to be really not getting what I am saying by trying to counter with Gal. 2:21 I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!”

I totally agree salvation, righteousness, and justification could not and did not come through the “Law”!!!! Reliance (trusting/faith) in God’s Love, forgiveness and mercy for salvation is not part of the Law, but is part of the Old Testament and prior to Cross.

If the sins of those under the OT law were forgiven in realty then there it could not be possible for Christ to redeem them if they were already redeemed (Galatians 4:4-5). Though many of those under the OT law (as David) had died by Paul's time, their sins were still forgiven at the cross...."And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance." (Hebrews 9:15). At the cross, Christ's blood flowed backwards to cover the sins of all those OT characters who were fairhful to God. Hence there was no sin ever committed at any point in time that would be forgiven apart from Christ's atonement...."Whom (Christ) God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;" (Romans 3:25) So Christ made atonement for sins under the past OT law, something the OT law could not do itself, (Galatians 3:11; Hebrews 10:1-4).

John's water baptism remitted (Mark 1:4) sins looking towards the cross and Christ's water baptism (Acts 2:38) remits sin looking back at the cross. Again, Christ's blood flowed back to atone for the sins of those hat were under the OT law as if flows forward to atone for our sins today who are under the NT law.

Again, rebellious disobedience, which all mature adults commit, could not be forgiven “Under the Law”, but trusting/faith in God’s Love to forgive, Love and have mercy (outside and above the Law) could be provide forgiveness.

Jesus rescued everyone from trying to find salvation with the Law.

You say of King David’s sins: “their sins were still forgiven at the cross”, but can you say of David, what the Hebrew writer said about Christ’s sacrifice provided: “clear the conscience of the worshiper”? Was David’s conscience cleared, like Saul/Paul’s conscience was cleared of his sins?

You bring up Ro. 3:25 so let us look at that:

Paul in Ro. 3:25 giving the extreme contrast between the way sins where handle prior to the cross and after the cross, so if they were actually handled the same way “by the cross” there would be no contrast, only a time factor, but Paul said (forgiven) sins prior to the cross where left “unpunished” (NIV), but that also should mean the forgiven “sinner” after the cross were punished.

From Romans 3: 25 Paul tells us: God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. …

Another way of saying this would be “God offers the ransom payment (Christ Crucified and the blood that flowed from Him) to those that have the faith to receive that ransom. A lack of faith results in the refusal of the ransom payment (Christ crucified).

God is not the undeserving kidnapper nor is satan worthy of a ransom, but the unbeliever is himself is holding back the child of God from the Father, that child that is within every one of us.

Paul goes on to explain:

Ro. 3: 25 …He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished

I do not like the word “unpunished” but would use “undisciplined”.

So prior to the cross repentant forgiven people (saved individuals) could not be fairly and justly disciplined for the rebellious disobedience, but after the cross if we repent (come to our senses and turn to God) we can be fairly and justly disciplined and yet survive.

God and Christ would have personally preferred Christ’s blood to remain flowing through his veins, but it is I that need to have that blood outside of Christ flowing over me and in me cleansing my heart. I need to feel that blood and know it is cleansing me.

If you think about the crucifixion, you would realize, at the time Christ was on the cross, God in heaven out of empathy/Love for Christ would be experience an even greater pain than Christ. We as our Love grows and our realization of what we personally caused Christ to go through will feel the death blow to our hearts (Acts 2:37). We will experience the greatest pain we could experience and still live, which is the way God is disciplining us today and for all the right reasons because Loving discipline correctly accepted results in a wondrous relationship with our parent. (We can now comfortably feel justified before God.)

I use the NIV all though I do not like any translation, NIV does what I consider to be the best translation of the Greek word πάρεσις (paresis) which most just translate with “past over”, since the NIV translates it “left the sins committed beforehand unpunished”. The Greek word Πάρεσις is only found here in the Greek New Testament and not used at all in the Greek Old Testament, so it is difficult to translate, but really not that hard, since secular koine Greek manuscripts can be found using πάρεσις. It is used to describe when a lender, on rare occasions, does not put a debtor in prison to try and get some of his money back from friends and relatives of the debtor, before releasing him. So, in the context of Ro. 3:25 the forgiven sinners prior to the cross were not disciplined/punished for their sins but were just forgiven and let go. Since Paul is making his argument showing a huge contrast between Jews before and after the cross, those after the cross would have to go through some “punishment” or better expressed as some disciplining to be a contrast.

There are lots of excellent benefits from being disciplined, but prior to Christ’s crucifixion, there was no way to fairly/justly discipline a rebellious disobedient repentant child seeking forgiveness and allow the child to live. The disciplines were just too hard being banishment or physical death. By Christ going to the cross, we can now be “crucified with Christ”, empathetically. How severe of a disciplining is this for Christians and how would it compare to the pain and sorrow God went through while Christ was crucified?

 

[BrotherJJ]

John the Baptist was a Mosaic law adherent Jew, sent to other Mosaic law adherent Jews.

Jesus & the 12 were also Mosaic law adherent Jews sent to other Mosaic law adherent Jews.

Matt 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
(MY NOTE: Jesus tells the 12. Don't go to GENTILES!)

6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
(MY NOTE: Jesus sends the 12 to the lost sheep of the ""House of Israel"")

Matt 15:24 Messiah answered & said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
(MY NOTE: Jesus say's; He's been sent, ONLY, to the lost sheep of the ""House of Israel"")

Rom 15:8 I say that Messiah was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:
(MY NOTE: While alive Jesus was a minister of the circumcision/Jews, NOT GENTILES)

Back to the Baptist:

The notion that John the Baptist a God chosen son of a temple priest, Mosaic law abiding Jew. & (Lk 1:1-36) Was in wilderness of Judea baptizing gentiles is antithetical to scripture.

These same Jews, stoned Stephen to death, beat the apostles, see what they did to Paul: Acts 9:29, 13:50, 14:5, 16:22-23, 18:12, 20:23, 21:31, 22:22, 23:3, 2 Cor 11:24-26 & had Jesus their long promised Messiah/redeemer KILLED!

Acts 10:28 Peter tells the gentile Cornelius "IT'S UNLAWFUL" for a Jew to keep company with a gentile)

Jews to include Jesus (Matt 15:26) often referred to Gentiles as "dogs" (Matt 7:6; Lk 16:21)

Gentiles were considered bastards living outside of covenant seals, so ungodly/unclean = to dogs. Just being in the presence of a gentile could make a Jew ceremonially unclean (Jn 18:28)

Acts 21:28-36 Jews that were aware of Paul's dealings with gentiles, throw Paul out of the Temple, begin to beat him to death. Roman soldiers show up & pull Paul from the mob.

Acts 21:37- Acts 22:20: Paul reasons with the Roman in charge & is allowed to address the crowd. They listen to Paul's conversion testimony until verse 21:

Acts 22:21 Paul say's he was sent to proclaim God to the GENTILES & the Jewish crowd goes ballistic & tries to KILL Paul.

The idea that a Temple Mt full of devote Mosaic law adherent Jews just stood by & remained peaceful. While John the Baptist is baptizing Gentiles is unscriptural?

Additionally:
No gentile receive the Acts 2:4 baptism of Holy Spirit on Temple Mt during the 1st post resurrection Pentecost. Not only for the same reasons at I gave above.

It's in Acts 10 that the 1st gentiles receive Christs baptism in/with His indwelling Holy Spirit.

Acts 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

Acts 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

(MY NOTE: It was YEARS earlier at Pentecost that "Jews Only" received the Holy Spirit.)

If gentiles received the baptism of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost? Why, years later, are Peter & the Jews with him are ASTONISHED!

Acts 11:
15And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.

16Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

17Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

18When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
(MY NOTE: When Peter returns to Church in Jerusalem. He tells Christ believing Jews what had happened at the gentile/Cornelius house.)

BTW: These gentiles received Salvations eternal Holy Spirit Sealing: NO repentance, no water baptism, no Mosaic law keeping, no circumcision, they brought no sin sacrifice to the Temple, they underwent no mikveh. (Reread Acts 10:44-45)

It's by FAITH ALONE these gentiles received Christ's salvation sealing Holy Spirit baptism. 10:38 God anointed Jesus with the Holy Spirit & power: (Vs 39) we are witnesses that the Jews had Him killed/HE DIED (Vs 40) and ROSE on the 3rd day. Gentiles were not part of the early Church in Jerusalem.)

Finally:
Aprox 14 yrs later at the Jerusalem Council (50-51 AD). We see the same Mosaic law adherent, unbelieving Pharisees that killed Jesus & Stephen, beat & killed most of the apostles trying(unsuccessfully) to put gentiles under Mosaic laws.

Today's Gospel of Salvation message is:

Source Amplified Bible
1 Cor 15
1 Now brothers and sisters, let me remind you [once again] of the good news [of salvation] which I preached to you, which you welcomed and accepted and on which you stand [by faith].

2 By this faith you are saved [reborn from above—spiritually transformed, renewed, and set apart for His purpose], if you hold firmly to the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain [just superficially and without complete commitment].

3 For I passed on to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to [that which] the Scriptures [foretold],

4 and that He was buried, and that He was [bodily] raised on the third day according to [that which] the Scriptures [foretold],
Bible Gateway passage: 1 Corinthians 15 - Amplified Bible

(MY NOTE: Vrs 1-4 Recap: The gospel of Salvation is: "Christ died for our sins was buried & rose again the third day")

Rom 5:
1 Therefore, since we have been justified [that is, acquitted of sin, declared blameless before God] by faith, [let us grasp the fact that] we have peace with God [and the joy of reconciliation with Him] through our Lord Jesus Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed).

2 Through Him we also have access by faith into this [remarkable state of] grace in which we [firmly and safely and securely] stand. Let us rejoice in our [a]hope and the confident assurance of [experiencing and enjoying] the glory of [our great] God [the manifestation of His excellence and power].
Bible Gateway passage: Romans 5 - Amplified Bible

(MY NOTE: Vrs 1-2 recap: We access salvation/justification = Judicially declared righteous by a sovereign Creator God. By placing our FAITH in Jesus sin atoning sacrifice. Found in His death (sins required wage, PAID) burial (proof Jesus died) & resurrection (Father's receipt, sins payment received & accepted.)

 

[BrotherJJ]

John's OT Baptism of Repentance

Mosaic law mandated many ceremonial water purification rituals/ablutions:

National application Ex 19:9-11 The Lord tells Moses to tell the Israelites, to consecrate themselves, wash & be ready in 3 days to meet their Lord.

Priestly application Lev 8:6-9: At the Levitical priestly ordination Moses instructs Aaron & his sons to undergo ritual water purification washings to become ceremonially clean

Individual application Lev 14:8-9: Those deemed unclean are instructed to undergo ritual washings, water purification to become ceremonially clean.

John's Baptism of Repentance:
John a Mosaic law adherent Israelite, sent to other Mosaic law adherent Israelites.

John the Baptist (literally means baptizer) coming from the Greek verb baptidzo. That carries the same meaning as the Hebrew root taval: to wash by dipping or plunging in water. John's message was the same prophetic warning message given throughout the OT of God's impending judgment.

John is telling these Israelites they'd strayed from Mosaic principles. Repent/Return to the covenant wash/purify yourselves,

Jewish water purification ablutions. Were ceremonial/ritual acts of washing parts of the body or sacred containers: Ex 39:4; Ex 30:19-21; Ex 40:12; Lev 6:27; Lev 13:54, Lev 13:58; Lev 14:8-9; Levs 15:16; Lev 16:4, Lev 16:24; Lev 22:6.

All Mosaic law adherent Israelites understood these ablutions. Under these water purification/ceremonial/ritual acts of washing: Someone who was impure or ceremonially unclean before immersion would be pure/ceremonially clean after immersion.

Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words: Baptism, Baptist, Baptize

[ A-1,Noun,G908, baptisma ]
baptism," consisting of the processes of immersion, submersion and emergence (from bapto, "to dip"), is used
(a) of John's "baptism,"
(b) of Christian "baptism,"
(MY NOTE: Notice there's a distinction between OT John the Baptist baptism of repentance & NT Christian baptisms)

Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words: Purification, Purity, Purifying

[ A-1,Noun,G2512, katharismos ]
is rendered a cleansing" (akin to No. 4, above), Mark 1:44; Luke 5:14; in Hebrews 1:3, RV, "purification."

[ A-3,Noun,G49, hagnismos ]
denotes "a ceremonial purification," Acts 21:26, for the circumstances of which with reference to the vow of a Nazirite (RV), See Numbers 6:9-Numbers 6:13.

Source Amplified Bible
Jn 3:25 Therefore there arose a controversy between John’s disciples and a Jew in regard to [d]purification (ceremonial washing).
Bible Gateway passage: John 3 - Amplified Bible
(MY NOTE: A controversy between John’s disciples & a Jew in regard to Jewish ritual/ceremonial purification washings = Baptisms)

Jn 4:
1 So when the Lord learned that the Pharisees had been told that Jesus was making and baptizing more disciples than John

2 (although Jesus Himself was not baptizing, but His disciples were)
Bible Gateway passage: John 4 - Amplified Bible
(MY NOTE: John & Jesus disciples (not Jesus) preformed these Jewish ceremonial/ritual acts of water purification = Baptisms)

Acts 19:4 Paul said, John baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
(MY NOTE: John the Baptist is sent to Jews only, to preach the BAPTISM of REPENTANCE. That they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.)

John's water baptism was a wake-up call & didn't remove/bring remission/pardon/forgive of sin.

Water baptism doesn't remove/bring remission/pardon/forgive sin, repentance doesn't remove/bring remission/pardon/forgive sin.

The only thing that can remove sins stain from a soul is: FAITH. When faith is placed in Jesus once for all time sin atoning sacrifice. Found in Jesus death, (sins required wage/payment due, PAID in FULL) His burial (proof Jesus died) & His resurrection (Father receipt, sins payment received & accepted)

Its not until after Jesus resurrection (Fathers receipt Jesus was Messiah/Sins Redeemer), that every past sin (that had been, Covered Only, by animal sacrifices) received remission/pardon/forgiveness/removal.

Heb 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
(MY NOTE: Without Christ's shed blood there is NO Remission/Pardon for sins.)

Mat 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
(NOTE MY : It's Belief/faith in Christ's sinless shed blood that provides the Remission/Pardon for sins. NOT the act of repentance or water baptism)

Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
(MY NOTE: Forgiveness of sins are realized thru Christ's atoning sacrifice)

Finally,
No place in John's teaching with you find Jesus death & resurrection. An absolute requirement for today's NT believer. Acts 2 Peter preaches todays message. Jesus died, was buried & rose again. Whereby Christ's new covenant salvation sealing indwelling Holy Spirit is given to believers