Is Christian Zionism Scriptural?

SilverSpoon

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Genesis 13:15

For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever.

Always read the Bible in full, don't cherry pick :

29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise. Galatians 3:29

So the seed is now by faith and not by blood, get it? The proof that Jews were no longer meant to dwell there is that for nearly two thousand years after Christ (and after it was fulfilled) they did not.
 
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Guojing

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Always read the Bible in full, don't cherry pick :

29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise. Galatians 3:29

So the seed is now by faith and not by blood, get it? The proof that Jews were no longer meant to dwell there is that for nearly two thousand years after Christ (and after it was fulfilled) they did not.

We are Abraham's seed, but Israel came from Jacob.
 
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Davy

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Nope. Joshua dates to the time period of King Josiah 640 – 609 BCE, but may not have been completed till the fall of Jerusalem or the return after exile 586 BCE - 539 BCE. Ezekiel was written during exile 593 to 571 BC.

Boy are you confused. Joshua existed at the time when God led the children of Israel out of Egypt through Moses. Instead of allowing Moses to lead the children of Israel into the lands of Canaan, it was Joshua that led them. That was long................ before king Josiah of 1 Kings 13.

Joshua died around 1434 B.C.
 
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Davy

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No because Joshua recounts the fulfillment of the Abrahamic covenant, which is why it uses the word "promise", whilst the other books are referencing other things.

Again, you don't have a clue, because Joshua lived around 1544-1434 B.C. (per Bullinger's and Ussher's chronology). The children of Israel were cast out of the holy lands much later, as Nebuchadnezzar took Jerusalem to begin Judah's 70 years captivity at 477 B.C. The ten northern tribes of Israel had already been gone for about 120 years by that time that Nebuchadnezzar took Jerusalem/Judea, and destroyed the city, walls, and temple.

So you are confused, big time. I suggest you get a copy of Bishop Ussher's chronology, or a copy of Bullinger's Companion Bible with Appendixes.
 
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SilverSpoon

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Boy are you confused. Joshua existed at the time when God led the children of Israel out of Egypt through Moses. Instead of allowing Moses to lead the children of Israel into the lands of Canaan, it was Joshua that led them. That was long................ before king Josiah of 1 Kings 13.

Joshua died around 1434 B.C.

Boy you are confused as there is no evidence at all that this man Joshua even existed. Even John Calvin did not believe so. The book is not strictly historical, but rather reflects a general past and recounts fulfillments of prophecies. Believing it to be fully historical is as laughable as believing that Moses wrote the Torah.

Again, you don't have a clue, because Joshua lived around 1544-1434 B.C. (per Bullinger's and Ussher's chronology). The children of Israel were cast out of the holy lands much later, as Nebuchadnezzar took Jerusalem to begin Judah's 70 years captivity at 477 B.C. The ten northern tribes of Israel had already been gone for about 120 years by that time that Nebuchadnezzar took Jerusalem/Judea, and destroyed the city, walls, and temple.

So you are confused, big time. I suggest you get a copy of Bishop Ussher's chronology, or a copy of Bullinger's Companion Bible with Appendixes.

Some cherry picked chronologies are not proof of fact, sorry. I'm sure you were there in 1544, having delivered Joshua from his mother, since you are so damn certain of this. Dating is the work of scholars who actually study the work and history, not bishops, and it's been dated to the 7th and 6th centuries. You continuously ignore how Joshua 21 refers to a fulfilled promise, because that doesn't fit your personal doctrine.
 
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Davy

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Boy you are confused as there is no evidence at all that this man Joshua even existed. Even John Calvin did not believe so. The book is not strictly historical, but rather reflects a general past and recounts fulfillments of prophecies. Believing it to be fully historical is as laughable as believing that Moses wrote the Torah.

Funny... that is.

"JOSHUA, BOOK OF

"The doomsday book of Palestine," especially Josh 13-23. Authenticated by Scripture references to the events recorded in it (Ps. 78:53-65; 28:21; Hab. 3:11-13; Acts 7:45; Heb. 4:8; 11:30-32; James 2:25 ). Joshua after destroying the kings, so that Israel had rest from war in the open field, divided generally the land; but this is quite consistent with the after statements that years passed before the process of division was completed and the allotments finally settled. Joshua was directed to divide land not yet in Israel's actual possession (Josh 13:1-14:5). God designed that Israel should occupy the land by degrees, lest the beasts should multiply and the land be desolate (Ex 23:28-30); for instance, though the kings of Jerusalem and Gezer were slain, their people were not rooted out until long after. The slackness of Israel to extirpate the accursed Canaanites was also a cause of non-immediate possession (Josh 11:16,23; 12:7,10-12; compare Josh 15:63; 16:10; 17:1,16; 18:1,3; 19:51). Joshua is based on the Pentateuch (to which it is joined by the conjunction "now" or "and" at its beginning), "now" but distinct from it. Compare Josh 13:7 with Num 34:13; 13:17 with Num 32:37; 13:21-22 with Num 31:8; 13:14,33; 14:4, with Deut 18:1-2; Num 18:20; 21 with Num 35."

(from Fausset's Bible Dictionary, Electronic Database Copyright © 1998, 2003, 2006 by Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved.)
 
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SilverSpoon

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Funny... that is.

"JOSHUA, BOOK OF

"The doomsday book of Palestine," especially Josh 13-23. Authenticated by Scripture references to the events recorded in it (Ps. 78:53-65; 28:21; Hab. 3:11-13; Acts 7:45; Heb. 4:8; 11:30-32; James 2:25 ). Joshua after destroying the kings, so that Israel had rest from war in the open field, divided generally the land; but this is quite consistent with the after statements that years passed before the process of division was completed and the allotments finally settled. Joshua was directed to divide land not yet in Israel's actual possession (Josh 13:1-14:5). God designed that Israel should occupy the land by degrees, lest the beasts should multiply and the land be desolate (Ex 23:28-30); for instance, though the kings of Jerusalem and Gezer were slain, their people were not rooted out until long after. The slackness of Israel to extirpate the accursed Canaanites was also a cause of non-immediate possession (Josh 11:16,23; 12:7,10-12; compare Josh 15:63; 16:10; 17:1,16; 18:1,3; 19:51). Joshua is based on the Pentateuch (to which it is joined by the conjunction "now" or "and" at its beginning), "now" but distinct from it. Compare Josh 13:7 with Num 34:13; 13:17 with Num 32:37; 13:21-22 with Num 31:8; 13:14,33; 14:4, with Deut 18:1-2; Num 18:20; 21 with Num 35."

(from Fausset's Bible Dictionary, Electronic Database Copyright © 1998, 2003, 2006 by Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved.)

That is not authentication, as Joshua is likely an allegorical figure representing Jews. The scriptures refer to things we know from history / science / archaeology did not happen (as even Rabbis admit) such as the Exodus, or Noah's fictional Ark, so that cannot be used as literal history all the time.

You are still failing to grasp the main point, only Joshua 21 refers to a fulfillment of a promise, none of the other books do.
 
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Guojing

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And Jacob came from Abraham, not a separate line. The proof that they weren't meant to live there forever, is that they did not, simple.

Because a promise has yet to be fulfilled in your lifetime so far, you believe it was never meant to be? (Hebrews 11:13)
 
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SilverSpoon

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Because a promise has yet to be fulfilled in your lifetime so far, you believe it was never meant to be? (Hebrews 11:13)

Another invalid strawman argument, pay attention to what I actually said.

1) It was already fulfilled in Joshua.
2) Jews are no longer heirs to any promise.
 
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Guojing

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Another invalid strawman argument, pay attention to what I actually said.

1) It was already fulfilled in Joshua.
2) It no longer applies to Jews.

If something is forever, it means forever to me.

I understand you see it differently so let's move on from this, we can agree to disagree.
 
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SilverSpoon

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If something is forever, it means forever to me.

I understand you see it differently so let's move on from this, we can agree to disagree.

It was forever, but Abrahams seed is redefined in the New Testament as Christians, that is not a matter of agreement. Why do focus on one word forever, and ignore all the other verses and related context? Willful ignorance doesn't make what you believe true.

If Jews were meant to live there forever, why did the diaspora form after Christ came?

Is the New Testament lying when it says WE Christians are Abrahams seed?
 
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SilverSpoon

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Well, God promised Abraham it will be forever, and as I told you also, God cannot lie.

But it didn't end up being forever, because they were out the land for almost 2000 years, between when Christ came and the modern state of Israel.

God cannot lie, except when he calls us not Jews Abraham's seed, apparently that's a lie.
 
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Guojing

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Is the New Testament lying when it says WE Christians are Abrahams seed?

Abraham has many descendants, beyond Isaac and Jacob. He even remarry after Sarah died and had more children after that.

So Jacob/Israel's seed does not have to be Abraham's seed, simple logic.
 
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SilverSpoon

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Abraham has many descendants, beyond Isaac and Jacob. He even remarry after Sarah died and had more children after that.

So Jacob/Israel's seed does not have to be Abraham's seed, simple logic.

Okay but why did it not come true? Why after it was fulfilled in Joshua, did they only stay there temporarily, until the Arabs started living there?
 
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Guojing

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Okay but why did it not come true? Why after it was fulfilled in Joshua, did they only stay there temporarily, until the Arabs started living there?

I already said that it will be fulfilled in the future, and even quoted to you Hebrews 11:13, to show that just because a promise was not seen in one's lifetime, it does not mean it won't come to pass
 
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SilverSpoon

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I already said that it will be fulfilled in the future, and even quoted to you Hebrews 11:13, to show that just because a promise was not seen in one's lifetime, it does not mean it won't come to pass

And I already showed you where it was fulfilled in the past, to which you responded fulfilled is not forever. You seem to be back pedaling and going in circles a lot.

Fulfilled prior to Christ but then they were ousted and came back many centuries later. A multi century gap means they didn’t end up living there forever.
 
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Guojing

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And I already showed you where it was fulfilled in the past, to which you responded fulfilled is not forever.

Fulfilled prior to Christ but then they were ousted and came back many centuries later, doesn’t sound like forever to me.

So you have a different interpretation of Genesis 13:15.

That is okay, I respect your different view.
 
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SilverSpoon

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So you have a different interpretation of Genesis 13:15.

That is okay, I respect your different view.

Its not an interpretation of Genesis, its what it says in Joshua. Joshua 21 clearly says that God made good on his promise and gave the Jews the land.
 
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