Is Christian Zionism Scriptural?

SilverSpoon

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Not sure what all is meant by Zionism, but there is Scripture evidence for the return of Judah back to the holy land, with God promising to not take them out anymore, and it is a prophecy specific to Judah, and does not include the ten lost tribes returning (even though God's Word says they will return also in final).

There is also scriptural evidence of it being fulfilled, the verse I already posted. Zionism is the belief that the modern state of Israel is a fulfillment of biblical prophecy (it's not).

Your assumption is misleading, because the Promises God gave to Abraham involve The Gospel of Jesus Christ. Jesus showed this at the end of John 8 that He knew Abraham (see Genesis 18 also). And Paul in Galatians 3 says The Gospel was preached to Abraham, and linked the believing Gentiles being blessed through Abraham, and inherit with Abraham, and have become the children of Abraham. So the inheritance of the lands of promise is actually part of The Gospel, because in final it's the believing Israelites and believing Gentiles that are to inherit it with Abraham. Those Promises to Abraham continued to his son Isaac, and then to Jacob, then to Joseph, and then to Joseph's two sons Ephraim and Manasseh, so you cannot just end those promises with Abraham either. Can't leave Christ's Church out, sorry.

Which assumption? God ended them himself, it says so it Joshua 21:43-45, sorry. They were fulfilled and done before Jesus ever even came along. The inheritance of Israel has nothing at all to do with the Gospel, it was made complete before then. You offered a whole lot of loose interpretation, but have not fully understood what the Old Testament says.

You sure misrepresented a whole lot... of Old Testament Scripture.

In Romans 11:26, Paul was pointing to Isaiah 11:11-16; Isaiah 45:17, 25; Isaiah 54:6-10.

The Isaiah 59:17-20 verses are specifically... about Jesus Christ's 2nd coming to defeat His enemies, and redeem Israel...

Isa 59:17-20
17 For he put on righteousness as a breastplate, and an helmet of salvation upon his head; and he put on the garments of vengeance for clothing, and was clad with zeal as a cloke.

18 According to their deeds, accordingly he will repay, fury to his adversaries, recompence to his enemies; to the islands he will repay recompence.
19 So shall they fear the name of the LORD from the west, and his glory from the rising of the sun. When the enemy shall come in like a flood, the Spirit of the LORD shall lift up a standard against him.
20 And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD.
KJV


Did you miss those parts in red which is about Christ's recompense upon His enemies on earth on the day of His return?

Lord Jesus' 1st coming was to die on the cross meek as a Lamb. His 2nd coming, which is still future, will be with a double-edged sword upon His enemies, and that's what those verses are about with His coming to Zion, so that is not about His 1st coming.

Isaiah 59:20 and Romans 11:26 match nearly word for word, so that's what he was quoting obviously :

“The Redeemer will come to Zion,
to those in Jacob who repent of their sins,”
declares the Lord. Isaiah 59:20.


Notice the "as it is written" part, it's a quote. Those parts in red are entirely compatible with his first coming. The "enemies", those that reject him, are repaid with fury, aka hellfire.

Now here are all the parts you missed in the New Testament :

6 It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7 Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children. On the contrary, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.” 8 In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring. 9 For this was how the promise was stated: “At the appointed time I will return, and Sarah will have a son. Romans 9

26 So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise. Galatians 3


Those parts in red eliminate the Zionist interpretation of Romans 11:27. We can determine that Israel is not referring to a whole people or nation, for not all Israel are Israel, only a remnant shall be saved, that would be those who accept Christ. The current promise is for Christians, who are Abrahams seed, not Jews, as it says so literally.
 
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SilverSpoon

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I won't even repeat your completely bypassed... REMOVAL of Scripture, which you did by totally disregarding the Romans 11:25-32 Scripture about God having blinded Paul's brethren away from The Gospel. That subject about Paul's brethren the Jews being 'blinded' actually began back at Romans 11:14, so there's more points Paul covered about than what you bothered to cover.

Thus your conclusion is defunct, because Paul covers the requirement that his brethren the Jews MUST not remain in unbelief to be saved, so Paul quoting from Isaiah 59 is in agreement with Old Testament Scripture. How could he not be?


Now then. Let's face it. You have succumbed to a tradition of men against the unbelieving Jews. I am not a Jew, but I know better than to feed my mind with the poison of men's doctrines outside of God's Word.

"I won't even repeat your completely bypassed... REMOVAL of Scripture" Total irony, as your interpretation ignores the whole of Romans chapters 9 and 10, and well pretty much the whole new testament. Jews and belief to be saved is irrelevant to whether they are specially chosen for a covenant or not, my conclusion is not defunct at all, nor do the verses you reference even refer to Jews. Salvation is for all those who accept Christ, being Jewish or not is utterly irrelevant unless the New Testament is lying repeatedly when it says such. You have succumbed to the tradition of cherry picking and biased interpretation, and your last sentence is of utmost irony, as the Zionist doctrine is totally unscriptural.
 
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Guojing

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You already know what I said, no need to ask. Here is a question for you, think about it very carefully and pay attention to the wording.

Are these two statements the same? :

"The bible is what you disagree with, and I did not express any personal doctrine of mine."

"You disagreeing with me, means you disagree with the Bible"

Yes
 
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Guojing

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No they aren't, that's why they are worded differently, it makes the meaning different.

I disagreed with your doctrine, and you reply with "The bible is what you disagree with and I did not express any personal doctrine of mine.""

If you insist they are different, I am fine, let's move on from this
 
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SilverSpoon

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I disagreed with your doctrine, and you reply with "The bible is what you disagree with and I did not express any personal doctrine of mine.""

If you insist they are different, I am fine, let's move on from this

It's not my doctrine, it's based on scripture, that's what I said that, not sure why you are confused.
 
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Guojing

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It's not my doctrine, it's based on scripture, that's what I said that, not sure why you are confused.

We are the protagonist in our own minds, so naturally we will think our doctrine is equivalent to scripture.
 
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SilverSpoon

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We are the protagonist in our own minds, so naturally we will think our doctrine is equivalent to scripture.

The exception is when I give you a verse that proves it. Does Joshua 21 say that the land deal to the ancient Israelites was fulfilled, answer that.
 
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Davy

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There is also scriptural evidence of it being fulfilled, the verse I already posted. Zionism is the belief that the modern state of Israel is a fulfillment of biblical prophecy (it's not).

No, there's no Scripture verifying Judah's return, only a prophecy that they would. It's in Jeremiah 24 about the parable of the two baskets of figs. That was fulfilled in 1948 when the house of Judah (Jews) became a nation state again in the middle east, called Israel (minus the ten tribes). If at any time in the future they are removed from the land again, that Jeremiah 24 prophecy will still lack fulfillment. As of right now though, it has been fulfilled. So Zionists can claim whatever they want, but God's Word shows the proper events of fulfillment. The gathering event of Israel on the day of Christ's return is not yet today, and those Jews in the middle east today do not represent all of the children of Israel, but only a remnant of the house of Judah (only a small portion of Judah, Benjamin, Levi, and converts from other nations).

Which assumption? God ended them himself, it says so it Joshua 21:43-45, sorry. They were fulfilled and done before Jesus ever even came along. The inheritance of Israel has nothing at all to do with the Gospel, it was made complete before then. You offered a whole lot of loose interpretation, but have not fully understood what the Old Testament says.

You're being silly, the Ezekiel 37:19-28 Scripture is obvious that God has not gathered all of the children of Israel back to the lands He promised their fathers. That's to happen on the day of Christ's second coming. The Ezekiel 47-48 chapters are emphatic about that for the future. And you try to use Joshua 21 to show that's fulfilled, when even Ezekiel wasn't even born yet?!? You're funny! that's some real Alfred E. Newman scholarship there bud.

Isaiah 59:20 and Romans 11:26 match nearly word for word, so that's what he was quoting obviously :

“The Redeemer will come to Zion,
to those in Jacob who repent of their sins,”
declares the Lord. Isaiah 59:20.


Notice the "as it is written" part, it's a quote. Those parts in red are entirely compatible with his first coming. The "enemies", those that reject him, are repaid with fury, aka hellfire.

You don't think Paul knew all the other places in OT Scripture about that subject when God will forgive Israel's sins, and gather them back to the lands He promised their fathers? Just like a Judaizer, always straining at a gnat to try and 'corner' God's Word into saying something it is not, you cannot try to isolate that single Isaiah 59 Scripture, nor even claim Jesus fulfilled that at His 1st coming. I well showed that Isaiah 59:18-21 Scripture is for the time of Christ's future return.

Now here are all the parts you missed in the New Testament :

6 It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7 Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children. On the contrary, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.” 8 In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring. 9 For this was how the promise was stated: “At the appointed time I will return, and Sarah will have a son. Romans 9

26 So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise. Galatians 3

I did not miss those Romans 9 Scriptures, I well understand them. It simply means that ALL... must come to Faith on Jesus Christ to be saved, including the seed of Israel. No brainer, because isn't that what Paul also said in Romans 11 about his unbelieving brethren the Jews? Yeah, he did. Only IF... they do not remain in unbelief, then God is able to graff them back into their own olive tree. Try reading that Romans 11 Scripture again instead of heeding stupid men's doctrines.

Sorry, but there is no Kingdom of The Church, that Jesus is coming to create. The name of His future Kingdom is Israel, God's Israel, not man's. And if you want to be a part of His future Salvation, I suggest you start understanding that difference, and quit playin' church.
 
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Davy

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"I won't even repeat your completely bypassed... REMOVAL of Scripture" Total irony, as your interpretation ignores the whole of Romans chapters 9 and 10, and well pretty much the whole new testament.

Thing is, you obviously have a problem with reading comprehension, so what you say is not to be trusted.
 
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SilverSpoon

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No, there's no Scripture verifying Judah's return

I already gave it to you :

43 So the Lord gave Israel all the land he had sworn to give their ancestors, and they took possession of it and settled there. 44 The Lord gave them rest on every side, just as he had sworn to their ancestors. Not one of their enemies withstood them; the Lord gave all their enemies into their hands. 45 Not one of all the Lord’s good promises to Israel failed; every one was fulfilled. Joshua 21:43-45

That was fulfilled in 1948 when the house of Judah (Jews) became a nation state again in the middle east

There are zero scriptural references to a 20th century state of Israel, exactly zero.

And you try to use Joshua 21 to show that's fulfilled, when even Ezekiel wasn't even born yet

Why would he have to born for that to happen? What does Joshua 21 refer to? It clearly references a promise being fulfilled, what covenant was that if not the Abrahamic one.

You don't think Paul knew all the other places in OT Scripture about that subject when God will forgive Israel's sins, and gather them back to the lands He promised their fathers

That is irrelevant to what he is actually quoting, pay attention and try to comprehend what is being conveyed to you. He knows of other scripture obviously but he only quotes Isaiah 59 in actual words.

Just like a Judaizer, always straining at a gnat to try and 'corner' God's Word into saying something it is not, you cannot try to isolate that single Isaiah 59 Scripture, nor even claim Jesus fulfilled that at His 1st coming. I well showed that Isaiah 59:18-21 Scripture is for the time of Christ's future return.

Aren't you the Judaizer, since you believe they (Jews) are still in some covenant? What is your insane rambling even about, you aren't even coherent. You mean the way Zionists like yourself isolate Romans 11:26. I isolate it because he quotes it, it's not brain surgery. The author himself is doing the isolation. You showed no such thing, as I already told you but you don't read or comprehend all of that works for his first coming. It mentions him removing sins, that already happened the first time he came.

I did not miss those Romans 9 Scriptures, I well understand them. It simply means that ALL... must come to Faith on Jesus Christ to be saved, including the seed of Israel. No brainer, because isn't that what Paul also said in Romans 11 about his unbelieving brethren the Jews? Yeah, he did. Only IF... they do not remain in unbelief, then God is able to graff them back into their own olive tree. Try reading that Romans 11 Scripture again instead of heeding stupid men's doctrines.

Sorry, but there is no Kingdom of The Church, that Jesus is coming to create. The name of His future Kingdom is Israel, God's Israel, not man's. And if you want to be a part of His future Salvation, I suggest you start understanding that difference, and quit playin' church.

Right, which what I already stated in my original post, congratulations for failing to read properly. Might want to take your own advice instead of rambling off, making assumptions and making a general fool out of yourself.

Thing is, you obviously have a problem with reading comprehension, so what you say is not to be trusted.

Laughably ironic, as you think I am arguing for a future physical state of Israel when I am not. Go back to my first post, read each line again slowly one by one.
 
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Davy

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I already gave it to you :

43 So the Lord gave Israel all the land he had sworn to give their ancestors, and they took possession of it and settled there. 44 The Lord gave them rest on every side, just as he had sworn to their ancestors. Not one of their enemies withstood them; the Lord gave all their enemies into their hands. 45 Not one of all the Lord’s good promises to Israel failed; every one was fulfilled. Joshua 21:43-45

I could go through the rest of your post but what's the point as you don't bother to read or comprehend at all.

Laughably ironic.

I think your scholarship would make a good edition of Mad magazine, with Alfred E. Newman dressed as a rabbi.
 
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SilverSpoon

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There is a difference between fulfilled and forever.

Remember before when you told it that they (Jews) weren't meant to live in Israel forever? This proves that, because after the promise being fulfilled (in Joshua) they didn't end up living there forever.
 
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Davy

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I already gave it to you :

And I gave it to you, in the Ezekiel 37 Scripture, which was written long..., long..., after that Joshua 21 Scripture. To say that God's promise of the children of Israel's final inheritance of the land has already happened is to skip over... at least 1/3 of the Old Testament prophets! And Apostle Peter told us to be mindful also of the Books of God's prophets (2 Peter 3:2).

There are zero scriptural references to a 20th century state of Israel, exactly zero.

There's that false affirmation thing again brethren, one who makes a statement hoping its true, when they cannot actually back it up.

I told you, the Jeremiah 24 prophecy to Judah is shown fulfilled in 1948 when a remnant of orthodox Jews returned to the middle east, and by U.N. Charter vote, Israel became a nation again. That's what the two baskets of figs parable is about, the good basket of figs representing Judah we are directly told there. So one can't miss it.

Why would he have to born for that to happen? What does Joshua 21 refer to? It clearly references a promise being fulfilled, what covenant was that if not the Abrahamic one.

It's simple, because the prophecies given through Ezekiel involve a later RETURN of the children of Israel to the lands of inheritance (Ezekiel 37, and especially 47 & 48). That has to mean they were scattered out of the land AFTER Joshua 21, duh. And they were, the ten tribes of Israel were removed first, being taken out of the northern lands of Israel by the kings of Assyria, never to return. And then about 120 years later, the Jews (tribes of Judah, Benjamin, Levi, and strangers) went captive to Babylon for seventy years, with only a small remnant of them returning to Jerusalem to build the city, walls, and 2nd temple. Ezekiel was in that Judah captivity to Babylon, so were Jeremiah and Daniel. Then the majority of those 3 tribes of Jews stayed in Babylon, and were later further scattered through the countries, never to return. To this day, the majority of the Jews of those 3 tribes are still scattered out of the holy lands. And then ten tribes are lost to the world, and to the Jews, but not to God, for God has promised to gather the ten tribes in final (Amos 8).

That is irrelevant to what he is actually quoting, pay attention and try to comprehend what is being conveyed to you. He knows of other scripture obviously but he only quotes Isaiah 59 in actual words.

You need to do a whole... lot of study in The Old Testament prophets, Alfred. You cannot try to isolate that one Isaiah 59 Scripture, especially when you tried to apply its fulfillment to Christ's 1st coming. You are in confusion, likely from listening to men's doctrines.

Aren't you the Judaizer, since you believe they (Jews) are still in some covenant? What is your insane rambling even about, you aren't even coherent. You mean the way Zionists like yourself isolate Romans 11:26. I isolate it because he quotes it, it's not brain surgery. The author himself is doing the isolation. You showed no such thing, as I already told you but you don't read or comprehend all of that works for his first coming. It mentions him removing sins, that already happened the first time he came.

No, I'm not the Judaizer, because that's one who tries to replace God's Word with man's doctrines, which you are guilty of. There are many Bible Scriptures about the gathering of the children of Israel in final. You just don't like them, and instead insult God's Word by shoving men's silliness into it where it don't belong.
 
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SilverSpoon

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And I gave it to you, in the Ezekiel 37 Scripture, which was written long..., long..., after that Joshua 21 Scripture.

Nope. Joshua dates to the time period of King Josiah 640 – 609 BCE, but may not have been completed till the fall of Jerusalem or the return after exile 586 BCE - 539 BCE. Ezekiel was written during exile 593 to 571 BC.

To say that God's promise of the children of Israel's final inheritance of the land has already happened is to skip over... at least 1/3 of the Old Testament prophets! And Apostle Peter told us to be mindful also of the Books of God's prophets

No because Joshua recounts the fulfillment of the Abrahamic covenant, which is why it uses the word "promise", whilst the other books are referencing other things.

There's that false affirmation thing again brethren, one who makes a statement hoping its true, when they cannot actually back it up.

I told you, the Jeremiah 24 prophecy to Judah is shown fulfilled in 1948 when a remnant of orthodox Jews returned to the middle east, and by U.N. Charter vote, Israel became a nation again. That's what the two baskets of figs parable is about, the good basket of figs representing Judah we are directly told there. So one can't miss it.

The first sentence is total irony yet again. Jerimiah 24 does not specify at all a modern state of Israel, you can tell me that you what want, it doesn't make it true. Fig baskets is interpretative nonsense, you are reading into the bible (Eisegesis) instead of out of it (Exegesis). You are not directly told, you are spinning the text to make it say what you want it to. A direct statement would be : "in the 20th century there shall be a state of Israel yet again".

It's simple, because the prophecies given through Ezekiel involve a later RETURN of the children of Israel to the lands of inheritance (Ezekiel 37, and especially 47 & 48). That has to mean they were scattered out of the land AFTER Joshua 21, duh

Yes and that would be post exile, when they returned. Ezekiel was written during the exilic period, something you apparently don't understand. They were scattered then returned when the Persians freed them, duh. That is not at all a reference to the Abrahamic covenant or 1948 Israel, you need to brush up on your bible scholarship.

You cannot try to isolate that one Isaiah 59 Scripture, especially when you tried to apply its fulfillment to Christ's 1st coming. You are in confusion, likely from listening to men's doctrines.

I didn't, the author did, not gonna tell you again, learn how to read and understand Dr. Hypocrite. The irony, as the belief that Israel 1948 fulfills scripture is the result of modern politics rather than scripture. 1948 Israel was forced through military might (Britain) and is a result of Zionist doctrine dating back to the late 19th century, it was not a miracle of God at all. The UN vote was irrelevant, it was Britain's espousing of Arabs that made it a country.

No, I'm not the Judaizer, because that's one who tries to replace God's Word with man's doctrines, which you are guilty of. There are many Bible Scriptures about the gathering of the children of Israel in final. You just don't like them, and instead insult God's Word by shoving men's silliness into it where it don't belong.

No Judaizer means one who believes Jews still have a covenant with God and are part of a future promise, learn the definition of your slanders and insults before tossing them out. Yes and they are all clarified as pertaining to Christians and having nothing at all to do with physical heritage. You just don't like that, and instead insult God's Word by shoving men's silliness into it where it don't belong. Dr. Alfred Hypocrite at it again.
 
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Guojing

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Remember before when you told it that they (Jews) weren't meant to live in Israel forever? This proves that, because after the promise being fulfilled (in Joshua) they didn't end up living there forever.

Well, God promised Abraham it will be forever, and as I told you also, God cannot lie.
 
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SilverSpoon

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Well, God promised Abraham it will be forever, and as I told you also, God cannot lie.

He never said they would live in Israel forever, he said the covenant would be forever, those two are not the same. The covenant has 3 parts, only one of which is the land deal, which was already fulfilled. They didn't live there forever, after it was fulfilled over 2000 years ago they ended up leaving, so that could not have been the promise.
 
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Guojing

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He never said they would live in Israel forever, he said the covenant would be forever, those two are not the same. The covenant has 3 parts, only one of which is the land deal, which was already fulfilled. They didn't live there forever, after it was fulfilled over 2000 years ago they ended up leaving, so that could not have been the promise.

Genesis 13:15

For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever.
 
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