The Contemporary View of Daniel 7.

[Douggg]

Second, I did not say anything about the "actual prince of Tyre" AS you were expecting a human prince in the days of Tyre. No, God was talking about ADAM! Do you even know what Tyre spiritually represents in Scripture? Since when you ever actually study Scripture to find out with the word, Tyre?! God sees Adam as prince of Tyre whom He has made perfect in the Garden of Eden...UNTIL the iniquity (sin) was found in Adam.

It is the King of Tyre, that the association was being made of him being in the Garden of Eden and also being the anointed cherub, in Ezekiel 28:12-19, which that link your provided claims is talking about Adam - and not Satan.

It is not Adam, because Adam was not a cherub, and Adam will not be a terror, and Adam will not be exposed before kings so that they will behold him, as it says in that set of verses in Ezekiel 28:12-19.

Nor is the prince of Tyre in Ezekiel 28:1-10, a reference to Adam, because in those verses God is going to bring strangers against him to slay him.

Ezekiel 28:1-10 is talking about the revealed man of sin.

Ezekiel 28:12-19 is talking about Satan.

 

[Jeffwhosoever]

I really doubt that the Apostle John had the USA in mind when he wrote Revelation, because it was completely unknown to the ancient world, and only discovered late in the 14th century by Europeans. We want to be significant because we are the world's superpower at the moment, but that is mostly a Mormon idea from what I have studied. Other interpretations of Daniel seem much more plausible, such as all but the last civilization ended with the Roman empire, and the next empire is the Lord's Kingdom after tribulation. Same with the UK. It wasn't significant in the time of Daniels prophecy, and still isn't really a major power in itself.

 

[Marilyn C]

So why don't you equate the first beast, like a lion with eagle's' wings with Nebuchadnezzar - instead of the British Empire and America ?

Hi Douggg,

Good question there, bro.

These are the reasons -

1.Contemporary. These kingdoms, powers were yet to arise. (Dan. 7: 17) They were not in the time of Daniel but contemporary to when the Lord comes in power and great glory.

2.Each Powerful. Each of these great powers are powerful. (Dan. 7: 3)

3.All at the same time. (contemporaneous) Each of these great powers are operating at the same time, for the final beast becomes very powerful and devours and tramples down the other beastly powers. (Dan. 7: 7)

Note also that the first 3 great powers are given an extension of life after the fourth beast is judged and done away with.

regards, Marilyn.

 

[Marilyn C]

Beast #1: A change of state, or transformation has taken place. I suspect from Christianity (heart of God) to the religion of equality (heart of man).

I'm pretty sure this is important but why?

Hi Matt,

Thanks for joining the discussion. I hear what you are saying, however these 4 `beasts` are 4 kingdoms.

`The fourth beast shall be a fourth kingdom on the earth.` (Dan. 7: 23)

regards, Marilyn.

 

[Marilyn C]

I still see things more literally, as a prophecy of the 4 empires, Babylon, Persia, Greece, and Rome. Nebuchadnezzar had his mind and rule taken from him for awhile, and he appeared to have nails that looked like animal claws, and hair that looked like eagle's feathers.

The 4th Beast seems to be the Roman Empire, which is the last empire mentioned before the coming of the Kingdom of God. It is the Kingdom that crucified Christ, and tormented the Early Church. It is also a Kingdom that endured for hundreds of years, but transitioned into new forms, dividing into States. We're told the 4th Beast evolves into 10 kings, or states, that will be consolidated, or reunited under the Antichrist.

This is the literal interpretation of the prophecy, without confusing it. But it is possible that a pattern is also providing some kind of cabbalistic or esoteric profile so that we may see, in our time, 4 other kingdoms evolve with similar characteristics. How could the great kingdoms of NT history not be equally significant--kingdoms like the U.S. and Russia?

Indeed Great Britain has controlled more of the earth than even Genghis Khan or the Soviet Union. And it indeed it is viewed as a lion, England's symbol. So could the 1st Beast of Dan 7 have a secondary reference to England, since they both share the "lion" symbol? I don't know.

The Bear in Dan 7 is a large animal and may appropriately represent Russia, often referred to by outsiders as a bear. Russia's symbol, however, is an eagle, it seems.

So could it also be referenced, mysteriously, by the bear symbol in Dan 7? I don't know.

I do get confused trying to take symbols from how they were meant to be applied and apply them to more recent historical events. However, I believe that *everything* in history is significant, and is at least as significant as the original applications.

The primary purpose of the prophecy is to show that the 4th Kingdom would be dominant on earth until the coming of Christ's Kingdom. I believe this to be the Roman Imperial Tradition in Europe. This Roman tradition presently exists from the U.S. to Russia. And we all know how important Europe has played in world events since the time of the ancient Roman Empire.

We are told the Beast contains the same characteristics as these ancient empire. I'm curious to know what gives European culture these characteristics today?

Rev 13.2 The beast I saw resembled a leopard, but had feet like those of a bear and a mouth like that of a lion.

As history evolved, the original blueprint of lion and bear in our day may be viewed as on a much larger drawing board. The supreme power of Babylon is eclipsed by the "lion" of England in history, which controlled 1/4 of the world at one time. And the large territorial kingdom of Persia, an Eastern power, has been greatly eclipsed by Russia, who in the time of the Soviet Empire controlled a huge chunk of the East.

Perhaps there is an allusion to the current shape of European Romanism, which stretches from the UK to Russia? It's a question...

Hi Randy,

I do like the way you are thinking through all this. You have moved on to the other beats however I will get there and you can read what my teachers have written.

Just a note. The great image has 5 body parts and I was taught the last part `the feet and toes` was not Rome. However we will get to that.

regards, Marilyn.

 

[Marilyn C]

Oh boy, what I am reading here so far is more of the blind leading the blind with typical newspaper eschatology looking for the modern nation(s) to fit their flawed premillennial doctrines.

Hi TribulationSigns,

Thank you joining the discussion. So please tell me what newspaper my teachers were able to read that had 4 super powers operating in 1970 when I was taught this. These teachers of course had the revelation even before I was taught it.

The only super power was the British Commonwealth & America, the Soviets and EU were just forming. No one else on the horizon.

So no newspaper eschatology.

Marilyn.

 

[Marilyn C]

When we examine the Scriptures more carefully we see that God is not interested in history lessons of worldly empires, but is illustrating spiritual truths. For example:

Hi TribulationSigns,

`The fourth beast shall be a fourth kingdom on the earth,..` (Dan. 7: 23)

`the court shall be seated, and they shall take away his dominion,....` (Dan. 7: 26)

Marilyn.

 

[Marilyn C]

I really doubt that the Apostle John had the USA in mind when he wrote Revelation, because it was completely unknown to the ancient world, and only discovered late in the 14th century by Europeans. We want to be significant because we are the world's superpower at the moment, but that is mostly a Mormon idea from what I have studied. Other interpretations of Daniel seem much more plausible, such as all but the last civilization ended with the Roman empire, and the next empire is the Lord's Kingdom after tribulation. Same with the UK. It wasn't significant in the time of Daniels prophecy, and still isn't really a major power in itself.

Hi Jeff,

Thank you for joining the discussion. Now we need to remember that it is the Holy Spirit who is writing God`s word. He write of things to come right through His word.

Hope you can read more as we go along.

Marilyn.

 

[Marilyn C]

So far I have not seen any one discuss the reasons why I believe Dan. 7 beasts are contemporary.

If you believe differently then in a discussion that is what needs to be presented. Otherwise myself and the readers will think you haven`t any valid points to bring up.

These are the reasons -

1.Contemporary. These kingdoms, powers were yet to arise. (Dan. 7: 17) They were not in the time of Daniel but contemporary to when the Lord comes in power and great glory.

2.Each Powerful. Each of these great powers are powerful. (Dan. 7: 3)

3.All at the same time. (contemporaneous) Each of these great powers are operating at the same time, for the final beast becomes very powerful and devours and tramples down the other beastly powers. (Dan. 7: 7)

Note also that the first 3 great powers are given an extension of life after the fourth beast is judged and done away with.

regards, Marilyn.

 

[Douggg]

Note also that the first 3 great powers are given an extension of life after the fourth beast is judged and done away with.

The fourth beast of the ten kings and little horn person is the EU, nations of Europe in a union together.

When Jesus returns, during the millennium those European nations will not be allowed to form a union again. The other end times nations that grew out of the three historic kingdoms (Babylonians, Medes-Persians, Greek empires) which are mainly middle east countries* it appears will continue into the millennium until its end (i.e. they are allowed to continue for a space). Egypt in particular is mentioned in Zechariah 14:18-19, after Jesus returns.

After the millennium, the Great White Throne judgment takes place, and in the new heaven and new earth and new Jerusalem - things will be different. We don't know a lot about that time.

___________________________________________________________

* At the end of the millennium, there will be that last rebellion, as the nations will be deceived by Satan one last time, including the Gog/Magog nations of the Ezekiel 38-39 event, that will have taken place a thousand years earlier.

Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

 

[TribulationSigns]

It is the King of Tyre, that the association was being made of him being in the Garden of Eden and also being the anointed cherub, in Ezekiel 28:12-19, which that link your provided claims is talking about Adam - and not Satan.

It is not Adam, because Adam was not a cherub, and Adam will not be a terror, and Adam will not be exposed before kings so that they will behold him, as it says in that set of verses in Ezekiel 28:12-19.

Nor is the prince of Tyre in Ezekiel 28:1-10, a reference to Adam, because in those verses God is going to bring strangers against him to slay him.

I can tell that you have not read the whole article provided and your comment proves your confusion and twisting on Ezekiel 28.

Ezekiel 28:1-10 is talking about the revealed man of sin.

Nope.

Ezekiel 28:12-19 is talking about Satan.

Nope.

You got a big problem reading and comparing Scripture. You did not even bother to research what the word "Tyrus" represents. Consider wisely:

Romans 8:29

• "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren."

It should be self-evident that (according to scripture) it was a man (Adam) and not angels who were in the Garden of Eden where every precious stone was his covering. It was Adam who was the anointed Cherub that covereth upon the Holy mountain of God. Why? Because He was the very image/likeness of the Glory of God. It was Adam who walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire (in the presence of God) in that Garden. In point of fact, the very name "Tyrus" means a stone. So it's quite obvious to me what is being illustrated here. It was in Adam that man was in the image of God and perfect in all his ways in the garden from the day that he was created until iniquity was found in him (the fall). And the fall of the king of Tyrus in his sinfulness "personifies" this fall from God's image by Adam. God is illustrating to fallen man that we qualify by attempting to be like God in eating of the tree of knowledge without wisdom. Man qualifies for "all" that we read in Ezekiel 28:12-16. But Angels do not qualify. Not Satan. Not your antichrist, Douggg! We interpret scripture by scripture, not by popular assumptions or your charts. And not once do we read of angels in the Garden of Eden. Not once do we read of angels falling in the Garden of Eden. Not once do we read of angels being corrupted because of knowledge. Not once do we read of angels defiling their sanctuaries by the multitude of their iniquities. On the contrary, we read of man in the garden, man was perfect there from the time he was created, and man is the one who fell there. And let's not forget, did not God say these very things of Adam?

Genesis 3:22

• "And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:"

It is man who was corrupted because of knowledge, not angels. Selah! He sought to be as God by his disobedience in eating of the tree of knowledge, and it was this that caused his fall in the day he transgressed. Satan in the Garden of Eden didn't have every precious stone his covering, but Adam was made glorious, precious in the sight of the Lord. Satan was not set the anointed Cherub that covereth upon the holy mountain of God, but scripture says Adam (man) was created in the very image of God so that this definition is consistent. In point of fact, everything in the Garden of Eden, including the serpent, was 'under dominion of Adam,' (Genesis 1:26-28;3:1) as He was perfect. Adam was the very likeness or image of God. ..as a Cherub.

Genesis 1:26-27

• "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
• So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them."

Letting the scripture be its own interpreter, you need to ask yourself where is it written in Scripture that Satan was created in the image of God (as a Cherub) in the Garden of Eden, hummm? We don't read that of Satan, but we do read that of man. Scripture does not say that Satan was perfect in the day He was created until his fall, but God created Adam (man) perfect, without sin, with free access to the tree of life until the day of his fall. In all of scripture, there is no one (besides Christ, the God man) whom God declares was created perfect, except Adam. This in itself should illustrate to us that the king of Tyrus "personifies" man who had everything, and lost it in the fall. In fact the very language, "perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created," clearly harkens back to the creation of Adam.

Genesis 5:1-2

• "This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;
• Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created."

So again, it all points to the King of Tyrus as a representation of fallen Man, not of an angel, Satan, nor your antichrist. Adam walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire and had no reason to hide from God before the fall. All these things which God speaks of concerning the King of Tyrus, applies to Adam before the fall. Get it? He was the very image of God (cherub) from the day that he was created, till iniquity was found in him. And by the multitude of his iniquity is their violence, and he has sinned, and therefore will God cast him as profane out of His Mountain. When God says, "Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus," it is a lamentation for man, not for Satan, nor for fallen angels. When God says, "I will destroy thee, O covering Cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire," it speaks of the judgment of man, and how he came under the wrath of God.

And so the support for the Cherub being an angel is not really as sound as many people might think. The symbolic image of the Cherubim, that John, Isaiah and Ezekiel saw, were a pictorial figure of the glory of God. And the Ark of the Covenant, the Mercy Seat, and Lord, dwelling with the Cherubim, illustrated that the tabernacle of God is with men, and that He would dwell with them, and they would be his people, and He their God. It's the personal relationship of the Creator, to His people. Not Satan or your antichrist.

2nd Kings 19:15

• "And Hezekiah prayed before the LORD, and said, O LORD God of Israel, which dwellest between the Cherubim, thou art the God, even thou alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth; thou hast made heaven and earth."

Psalms 99:1-2

• The LORD reigneth; let the people tremble: he sitteth between the Cherubim; let the earth be moved.
• The LORD is great in Zion; and he is high above all the people."

Cherubim are the watchers and guardians over the Holiness and person of the Lord. It is their spiritual responsibility to be the fiery judge of anything that is unholy that should come into God's presence (Gen. 3:24). And who could there possibly be as guardian over God, but God. Is there anyone higher, stronger, or who could protect the way of the tree of Life better than God? Does God need angels to watch over Him? This was the likeness or image of the Glory of God, just as it is written. And it illustrates God's terribleness, His Kingship over all that Creation, and His personal relationship with His people. The Lord is not making His habitation in the Mercy Seat dwelling with angels overshadowing Him, He dwells in the Glory of God, in the very Image of God, because He and the Father are one. If anything, He overshadows the messengers of God, not vice-versa.

And because the elect is returned to the image of Christ, Cherubim will also have the connotation of illustrating a certain representation of redeemed humanity in the body of Christ. Through Christ we see our fellowship, our companionship with God is through this work of Christ. We again have that Garden of Eden communion through the Lord Jesus Christ, when we are conformed to God's perfect image (Romans 8:29). We may not be able to understand perfectly this symbolism of the Cherubim relationship, but the image of God is there for all to see. This has NOTHING to do with Satan, angels, or your antichrist!

2nd Corinthians 3:18

• "But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the Glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord."

Therefore, what are Cherubim? The Cherubim are symbolic imagery of the Glory of God Himself, and are intimately related to man. God is said to ride upon the Cherubim, because it is symbolic of the vehicle whereby man is both judged and restored to the Glory of God. The symbolic figure of His strength of battle, as it appears a chariot and horses of fire, all paint a very enlightening portrait. His feet walk among the stones of fire to illustrate that the Glory of God is seen in coals of fire as a furnace, signifying His wrath and judgment. But the Cherubim not only illustrate a representation of His judgments upon man, but also of His communion, sacrifice, love, mercy, protection and care for the believer. For the Cherubim "are" the appearance of the very likeness of the Glory of the LORD (Ezekiel 1:28). Remember "cloud", @Hammster?! A glory that can be seen of man, and the key is in the symbolism so prevalent in its illustration.

 

[Marilyn C]

The fourth beast of the ten kings and little horn person is the EU, nations of Europe in a union together.

When Jesus returns, during the millennium those European nations will not be allowed to form a union again. The other end times nations that grew out of the three historic kingdoms (Babylonians, Medes-Persians, Greek empires) which are mainly middle east countries* it appears will continue into the millennium until its end (i.e. they are allowed to continue for a space). Egypt in particular is mentioned in Zechariah 14:18-19, after Jesus returns.

Hi Douggg,

God has judged all the former world rulers. eg. Babylon -

`God has numbered your kingdom, (rulership) and FINISHED IT. ...You have been weighed in the balances and found wanting. (King of Babylon)....Your kingdom (rulership) has been divided and given to the Medes and Persians.....That very night Belshazzar King of the Chaldeans was slain. And Darius the Mede received the kingdom, (rulership)..` (Dan. 5: 26 - 31 excerpts)

So it is the ruler that God judged and Babylon, Medes and Persians and Greece & Roman governments, their rulers have ALL BEEN JUDGED AND ARE NO MORE.

regard, Marilyn.

 

[Jeffwhosoever]

The one thing I've learned about studying eschatology is that none of us can claim to have all the answers. There are just too many possible explanations and interpretations to be 100% right. I respect the view of the OP though I don't necessarily agree with every facet, but how do we really know? Daniel certainly could have been seeing something beyond the 4 kingdoms prior to the Lord's coming. One day we will know in Perfect, but now we only see as through a reflection in a mirror.

 

[Douggg]

So far I have not seen any one discuss the reasons why I believe Dan. 7 beasts are contemporary.

Hi Marilyn, perhaps you could refine your wording to something like "I believe the four beasts in Daniel 7
to be contemporary to each other."

And perhaps you should clarify - do you mean by the four beasts - as being four kingdoms or four kings or both? "Power" is kinda ambiguous.

Give us something to work with -

beast 1 - ?
beast 2 - ?
beast 3 - ?
beast 4 - ?

 

[Douggg]

I can tell that you have not read the whole article provided and your comment proves your confusion and twisting on Ezekiel 28.

Why don't you start a new thread about Ezekiel 28, the prince of tyre and the king of tyre - so as not to take Marilyn's thread off topic.

In particular, I want you to address how in your interpretation of Ezekiel 28:17-19 applies to Adam.

 

[RandyPNW]

Hi Randy,

I do like the way you are thinking through all this. You have moved on to the other beats however I will get there and you can read what my teachers have written.

Just a note. The great image has 5 body parts and I was taught the last part `the feet and toes` was not Rome. However we will get to that.

regards, Marilyn.

Yea, another poster and I have had a long-running disagreement about the "5 parts," and also about how the dreams of Nebuchadnezzar (ch. 2) and Daniel (ch. 7) relate. But hopefully I'll see your post!

 

[Marilyn C]

Hi Marilyn, perhaps you could refine your wording to something like "I believe the four beasts in Daniel 7
to be contemporary to each other."

And perhaps you should clarify - do you mean by the four beasts - as being four kingdoms or four kings or both? "Power" is kinda ambiguous.

Give us something to work with -

beast 1 - ?
beast 2 - ?
beast 3 - ?
beast 4 - ?

Hi Douggg,

I hear what you are saying. If it is just me saying, `I believe....` then people can think I have made this view up, whereas it is a body of teaching by respected teachers from the Welsh Revival. Those in America have mainly come from the other revival - Azusa street, and not heard of this teaching.

As to using the world `power` we tend to say Super Powers, Great Powers. The word kingdom in the Hebrew means - rule, dominion.

Also this thread has come from my discussion with Randy on another thread where he graciously asked me to show the details of Dan. 7. Thus I am only doing one beast at a time, otherwise my OP would have been much too long.

I do appreciate your helpful comments though. Always good to have someone have your back.

regards, Marilyn.

 

[Marilyn C]

Yea, another poster and I have had a long-running disagreement about the "5 parts," and also about how the dreams of Nebuchadnezzar (ch. 2) and Daniel (ch. 7) relate. But hopefully I'll see your post!

Hi Randy,

I am only doing one beast at a time otherwise the OP would have been too long.

Hope you like the timeline I`m about to post. Quite interesting.

regards, Marilyn.

 

[Marilyn C]

Timeline of `Lion` from other scriptures.


1. 17th & 18th centuries. (Dan. 7: 4) The beginning of the British Empire. It conquered about a quarter of the world, which it built up in the 17th and 18th centuries.


2. 1776. (Dan. 7:4) American Independence from Great Britain. The eagle`s wings plucked off the great lion.

3. 1950`s (Luke 21: 29) The British Empire became a Commonwealth of nations. This was just around the time when Israel became a nation, (1948) and `all the trees` refers to other countries becoming nations also.


4. 202? (Ez. 38: 13) This is just before the tribulation. Here we read of the British Commonwealth (and America is always with them), challenging the Russian Federation as to them gathering outside of Israel. Most scholars accept that `the merchants of Tarshish and all their young lions` is Britain and its Commonwealth of nations.



5. 202? (Dan. 7: 7) This is during the first part of the tribulation. Here we read of the terrifying beastly Federation trampling down the other Federations. The Lion, British Commonwealth comes under the control of the final Federation.



6. 202? (Rev. 13: 2) This is in the middle of the tribulation when the Global Government has just received the anti-Christ as their leader and his 10 kings with him. The British Commonwealth, (lion) is the mouth piece of the Global government.



7. 202? (Dan. 7: 12) This is at the end of the tribulation. The Lion Federation and the other two Federations have their dominion taken away but were able to function for a time after the tribulation.




Any comments before I post the details of the second beast as taught in the Contemporary View.

Regards, Marilyn.

 

[Marilyn C]