The physical descendants of the ancient nation of Israel.

[sovereigngrace]

I most certainly accept what Galatians 3 says. What I deny is the wrested interpretation you make of this passage. And I continue to stand on the VERY MANY passages that EXPLICITLY say, in PLAIN, CLEAR, words, that God will eventually b ring the entire ancient nation of Israel back to its ancient homeland, and will, after He purges out the rebels from their midst, bring all the rest of them to repentance and bless them IN THEIR ANCIENT HOMELAND. This is NOT interpretation, it is what God ACTUALLY said He would do.

Jesus never taught anything about land promises to national Israel; Paul never mentioned any. None of the New Testament writers did so. While the land was obviously significant during the Old Testament era, it is entirely insignificant in the New Testament. The New Testament reverses the narrow and provincial focus of the Old Testament and broadens it out with a new concern for all nations. The sole focus of the New Testament is Christ and the expanse of the Gospel from the little land of Israel to the whole world.

Jesus made it clear in the Beatitudes that his focus was on the whole earth, and not simply the land of Israel, saying: “Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth” (Matthew 5:5). Paul confirms this in Romans 4.13, speaking about Abraham, the great father of the faithful, saying: “For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.”

 

[keras]

You are ignoring the many explicitly stated promises that God made, not only to the ancient nation of Israel,

All those prophesies apply to the Israelites of God. His faithful Christian overcomers for Him.
People who reject Jesus and disobey the Commandments have no part in Gods promises, their fate is to be smashed like a clay pot. Jeremiah 19:10-12
They will be thrown out into the dark; Matthew 8:12

God chose Jacob’s descendants to be the people who would bring the Light of Salvation to the Gentiles. Isaiah 49:3-6

They divided into two Houses; Israel and Judah. They both disobeyed the Lord, so God sent His Son to provide a way of Atonement for those who would accept it.
Judah did not, but those of the House of Israel, still scattered among the nations; have to a great extent; become the Christian peoples.

To the Ephesians, (who were classed as Gentiles by the Jews) Paul states they were once identified with the Spirit of Death, which was associated with the not chosen Gentiles – as opposed to the False Prophet/Spirit of Hell which was found in the Jews under the Old Covenant.
And you [Ephesians]…were dead in trespasses and sins. Ephesians 2:1

Paul goes on to say that it is that very Spirit of Death which now inhabits the children of disobedience. Ephesians 2:2

God will eventually bring the entire ancient nation of Israel back to its ancient homeland, and will, after He purges out the rebels from their midst, bring all the rest of them to repentance and bless them IN THEIR ANCIENT HOMELAND. This is NOT interpretation, it is what God ACTUALLY said He would do.

God will do this.
The rebels to be purged comprise virtually the entire current population of the holy Land. Isaiah 66:15-17, Zephaniah 1:1-18 and Ezekiel 20:46-48, Ezekiel 22:1-16, vividly describe this purging.

 

[Douggg]

Jesus never taught anything about land promises to national Israel; Paul never mentioned any. None of the New Testament writers did so.

Because the promises to the land for the children of Israel is in the old testament. For the end times prophecies that both Jesus and Paul spoke about to take place, the Jews need to be back in the land of Israel with Jerusalem their city. We see both of those necessities fulfilled in Israel today.

 

[keras]

Because the promises to the land for the children of Israel is in the old testament. For the end times prophecies that both Jesus and Paul spoke about to take place, the Jews need to be back in the land of Israel with Jerusalem their city. We see both of those necessities fulfilled in Israel today.

Sure; the Jews are back. But in apostasy and their continued rejection of Jesus. They face punishment and only a Messianic remnant will survive.
They do NOT fulfil the prophecy of Isaiah 66:7-14

Paul DID say the Christian peoples will inherit the Land; Ephesians 1:11-14, Galatians 3:29, Ephesians 3:6, +
Paul reiterated the prophecy of Hosea in Romans 9:24-26 :- we Christians will praise God in the very place where the ancient Israelites rejected Him.

 

[jgr]

Because the promises to the land for the children of Israel is in the old testament. For the end times prophecies that both Jesus and Paul spoke about to take place, the Jews need to be back in the land of Israel with Jerusalem their city. We see both of those necessities fulfilled in Israel today.

Here are your Jews.

After more than three millennia of natural genetic dispersion and diffusion since Abraham, his DNA is in every person on planet earth.

Confirmed mathematically, and empirically by the Jewish community itself.

You can have my two square inch plot of land when you migrate.

I won't be going.

Example of the mathematical confirmation of ancestral genetic ubiquity

Abraham lineage
DNA Tests Could Fulfill God’s Promise to Abraham by Revealing Millions of Jews. But How Jewish is Jewish Enough?
Israel in all of Us? Research finds 'Jewish genes' in unusual places
Jewish-Roots Arabs in Israel
Tracing the lost tribes to Jewish communities in Africa
Nigeria's Igbo Jews: 'Lost tribe' of Israel? - CNN
http://www.worldjewishcongress.org/...-africa-has-jewish-roots-genetic-tests-reveal
https://www.jpost.com/Jewish-World/...her-claims-proof-of-tribe-of-Ephraim-in-India
https://www.jta.org/2013/05/23/life...bush-bani-israel-tribe-claims-jewish-heritage

 

[Douggg]

Paul DID say the Christian peoples will inherit the Land; Ephesians 1:11-14, Galatians 3:29, Ephesians 3:6, +

inherit eternal life.

 

[Biblewriter]

All those prophesies apply to the Israelites of God.

You cannot find even a scrap of scripture to support that allegation. I posted all these explicitly stated promised BECAUSE there is no scripture whatsoever that even suggests the notion that ANY of these names means "the church."

 

[Biblewriter]

The rebels to be purged comprise virtually the entire current population of the holy Land. Isaiah 66:15-17, Zephaniah 1:1-18 and Ezekiel 20:46-48, Ezekiel 22:1-16, vividly describe this purging.

We are EXPLICITLY told, concerning THAT time, that:


8 And it shall come to pass in all the land," Says the LORD, "That two-thirds in it shall be cut off and die, But one-third shall be left in it:
9 I will bring the one-third through the fire, Will refine them as silver is refined, And test them as gold is tested. They will call on My name, And I will answer them. I will say, 'This is My people'; And each one will say, 'The LORD is my God.' " Zechariah 13:8-9

The passage about leaving only a tenth (Isaiah 6:11-13) is speaking of a judgment that took place long ago.

 

[Biblewriter]

Here are your Jews.

After more than three millennia of natural genetic dispersion and diffusion since Abraham, his DNA is in every person on planet earth.

Confirmed mathematically, and empirically by the Jewish community itself.

You can have my two square inch plot of land when you migrate.

I won't be going.

Example of the mathematical confirmation of ancestral genetic ubiquity

Abraham lineage
DNA Tests Could Fulfill God’s Promise to Abraham by Revealing Millions of Jews. But How Jewish is Jewish Enough?
Israel in all of Us? Research finds 'Jewish genes' in unusual places
Jewish-Roots Arabs in Israel
Tracing the lost tribes to Jewish communities in Africa
Nigeria's Igbo Jews: 'Lost tribe' of Israel? - CNN
http://www.worldjewishcongress.org/...-africa-has-jewish-roots-genetic-tests-reveal
https://www.jpost.com/Jewish-World/...her-claims-proof-of-tribe-of-Ephraim-in-India
https://www.jta.org/2013/05/23/life...bush-bani-israel-tribe-claims-jewish-heritage

You are imagining that modern "science" is more reliable that the explicitly stated words of God.

 

[Biblewriter]

None of these scriptures even mentions the land.

Paul DID say the Christian peoples will inherit the Land; Ephesians 1:11-14, Galatians 3:29, Ephesians 3:6, +

None of these passages even mentions "the land," nor does ANY other scripture about "the church." OUR promises are ALL heavenly, not earthly.

 

[jgr]

You are imagining that modern "science" is more reliable that the explicitly stated words of God.

Feel free to attempt to disprove it.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

I most certainly accept what Galatians 3 says. What I deny is the wrested interpretation you make of this passage. And I continue to stand on the VERY MANY passages that EXPLICITLY say, in PLAIN, CLEAR, words, that God will eventually b ring the entire ancient nation of Israel back to its ancient homeland, and will, after He purges out the rebels from their midst, bring all the rest of them to repentance and bless them IN THEIR ANCIENT HOMELAND. This is NOT interpretation, it is what God ACTUALLY said He would do.

Galatians 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

What promises do you think this verse is referring to that were made to Abraham's seed, which is Christ?

Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

This passage says that those of us who belong to Christ are Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise. What promise do you think that is?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

inherit eternal life.

On the new earth. That's the land God's people are looking forward to, not some piece of land in Israel.

2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

 

[DavidPT]

On the new earth. That's the land God's people are looking forward to, not some piece of land in Israel.

2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

The earth is a round object hanging in space. It is is always going to be a round object hanging in space for forever. On this round object there are geographic located regions throughout. For instance, the region where the US is currently located will never be the region where the middle east is currently located. None of that is going to change. And since the new Jerusalem has to be geographically located somewhere on earth, why not in the middle east? Obviously, land in the middle east was important to God from the very beginning. Why would it no longer be important during the new heavens and new earth? Do you perhaps think the NJ is meaning the entire planet rather than a geographic region somewhere on this planet?

Even though Jesus is God, not one single Scripture ever has Jesus as depicted in being physically in multiple places at the same time. When He is physically back on earth again He has to have somewhere to dwell since He won't be dwelling everywhere on the earth at the same time, obviously. Why not in the middle east being where He will be ruling from? Surely, for example, He won't be ruling from the region where the US is currently located.

For the life of me I just can't figure out what some of you think things are going to look like on earth once Christ takes up bodily residence on it forever at some point? I would think the Bible might give us some clues. But some of you flat out reject any of that when others propose that the OT gives us numerous glimpses into what it will look like on earth post the 2nd coming.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

The earth is a round object hanging in space. It is is always going to be a round object hanging in space for forever. On this round object there are geographic located regions throughout. For instance, the region where the US is currently located will never be the region where the middle east is currently located. None of that is going to change. And since the new Jerusalem has to be geographically located somewhere on earth, why not in the middle east? Obviously, land in the middle east was important to God from the very beginning. Why would it no longer be important during the new heavens and new earth? Do you perhaps think the NJ is meaning the entire planet rather than a geographic region somewhere on this planet?

The new Jerusalem is a figurative reference for the church. In Revelation 21:9 it is described as "the bride, the Lamb's wife". The bride of Christ is us, the church, and not a literal city that will be placed on the new earth.

Jesus said that "the meek shall inherit the earth" (Matthew 5:5). Since I believe the new earth will be this earth in a renewed state then I believe He was saying that the meek shall inherit the renewed version of the earth (the new earth). That's much better than just a relatively small part of the earth, right?

What is your understanding of the meek inheriting the earth?

Even though Jesus is God, not one single Scripture ever has Jesus as depicted in being physically in multiple places at the same time. When He is physically back on earth again He has to have somewhere to dwell since He won't be dwelling everywhere on the earth at the same time, obviously. Why not in the middle east being where He will be ruling from? Surely, for example, He won't be ruling from the region where the US is currently located.

That's some strange logic. He could rule from where the Middle East is currently located but not from where the US is currently located? That makes no sense.

I don't believe the rules of time and physics that we currently know and understand will apply at that time when He comes, so I think you should be careful about trying to say what Jesus can or can't do at that point.

For the life of me I just can't figure out what some of you think things are going to look like on earth once Christ takes up bodily residence on it forever at some point? I would think the Bible might give us some clues.

Of course a premil is not going to understand an amil's perspective since you believe He will be on the earth as we know it, while we believe He will be on the new earth after this earth has been burned up and renewed. And that will be much different than the earth as we know it.

From the perspective of what it will be like on the new earth, if we could imagine what that will be like then that would be disappointing. I believe it will be beyond what any of us can imagine. We know that "there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain" (Rev 21:4), but we are not given many details of what things will be like exactly. And that is probably because our minds are not able to grasp what it will be like.

1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

But some of you flat out reject any of that when others propose that the OT gives us numerous glimpses into what it will look like on earth post the 2nd coming.

Of course, we disagree with your interpretation of those OT passages. So, it shouldn't be suprising that we don't come to the same conclusions as you on this. Premils, for whatever reason, do not allow the NT to illuminate the OT for them and that's why Premils take many OT passages out of context.

 

[Biblewriter]

Feel free to attempt to disprove it.

1 "And you, son of man, prophesy to the mountains of Israel, and say, 'O mountains of Israel, hear the word of the LORD!
2 Thus says the Lord GOD: "Because the enemy has said of you, 'Aha! The ancient heights have become our possession,' " '
3 therefore prophesy, and say, 'Thus says the Lord GOD: "Because they made you desolate and swallowed you up on every side, so that you became the possession of the rest of the nations, and you are taken up by the lips of talkers and slandered by the people"--
4 therefore, O mountains of Israel, hear the word of the Lord GOD! Thus says the Lord GOD to the mountains, the hills, the rivers, the valleys, the desolate wastes, and the cities that have been forsaken, which became plunder and mockery to the rest of the nations all around--
5 therefore thus says the Lord GOD: "Surely I have spoken in My burning jealousy against the rest of the nations and against all Edom, who gave My land to themselves as a possession, with whole-hearted joy and spiteful minds, in order to plunder its open country." '
6 Therefore prophesy concerning the land of Israel, and say to the mountains, the hills, the rivers, and the valleys, 'Thus says the Lord GOD: "Behold, I have spoken in My jealousy and My fury, because you have borne the shame of the nations."
7 Therefore thus says the Lord GOD: "I have raised My hand in an oath that surely the nations that are around you shall bear their own shame.
8 "But you, O mountains of Israel, you shall shoot forth your branches and yield your fruit to My people Israel, for they are about to come.
9 For indeed I am for you, and I will turn to you, and you shall be tilled and sown.
10 I will multiply men upon you, all the house of Israel, all of it; and the cities shall be inhabited and the ruins rebuilt. Ezekiel 36:1-10


ONE statement from God trumps ALL alleged "science."

 

[jgr]

1 "And you, son of man, prophesy to the mountains of Israel, and say, 'O mountains of Israel, hear the word of the LORD!
2 Thus says the Lord GOD: "Because the enemy has said of you, 'Aha! The ancient heights have become our possession,' " '
3 therefore prophesy, and say, 'Thus says the Lord GOD: "Because they made you desolate and swallowed you up on every side, so that you became the possession of the rest of the nations, and you are taken up by the lips of talkers and slandered by the people"--
4 therefore, O mountains of Israel, hear the word of the Lord GOD! Thus says the Lord GOD to the mountains, the hills, the rivers, the valleys, the desolate wastes, and the cities that have been forsaken, which became plunder and mockery to the rest of the nations all around--
5 therefore thus says the Lord GOD: "Surely I have spoken in My burning jealousy against the rest of the nations and against all Edom, who gave My land to themselves as a possession, with whole-hearted joy and spiteful minds, in order to plunder its open country." '
6 Therefore prophesy concerning the land of Israel, and say to the mountains, the hills, the rivers, and the valleys, 'Thus says the Lord GOD: "Behold, I have spoken in My jealousy and My fury, because you have borne the shame of the nations."
7 Therefore thus says the Lord GOD: "I have raised My hand in an oath that surely the nations that are around you shall bear their own shame.
8 "But you, O mountains of Israel, you shall shoot forth your branches and yield your fruit to My people Israel, for they are about to come.
9 For indeed I am for you, and I will turn to you, and you shall be tilled and sown.
10 I will multiply men upon you, all the house of Israel, all of it; and the cities shall be inhabited and the ruins rebuilt. Ezekiel 36:1-10


ONE statement from God trumps ALL alleged "science."

Where does God prohibit genetic dispersion?

The answer is nowhere, for it was God Himself who initiated multiple genetic dispersions through multiple physical expulsions, over the centuries, of Israelites from their lands due to their unfaithfulness and disobedience. The culmination was the expulsion and dispersion of 70 AD.

As a result, Abraham's physical genes are ubiquitous throughout the human race, and his bloodline is as diluted and intermixed as any on earth.

But flesh profiteth nothing, and it is Abraham's spiritual genes of faith and obedience that are the sole and exclusive determinant of God's Covenant blessings and benefits.

Fulfilled in Christ, and in those who are in Christ, and in no others.

God doesn't limit Himself to statements.

His actions demonstrate His justice.

 

[keras]

You can have my two square inch plot of land when you migrate.

I won't be going.

Then I won't invite you to come and sit under my fig tree. Zechariah 3:10

None of these passages even mentions "the land," nor does ANY other scripture about "the church." OUR promises are ALL heavenly, not earthly.

If the faithful believers, the true Israelites of God do not finally inhabit all of the holy Land, then God's Plans for His Creation, will have failed.

It is clearly stated that God's people will live there. Soon to happen. Isaiah 65:9, Psalms 37:29, Psalms 69:32-36

 

[DavidPT]

Where does God prohibit genetic dispersion?

The answer is nowhere, for it was God Himself who initiated multiple genetic dispersions through multiple physical expulsions, over the centuries, of Israelites from their lands due to their unfaithfulness and disobedience. The culmination was the expulsion and dispersion of 70 AD.

As a result, Abraham's physical genes are ubiquitous throughout the human race, and his bloodline is as diluted and intermixed as any on earth.

But flesh profiteth nothing, and it is Abraham's spiritual genes of faith and obedience that are the sole and exclusive determinant of God's Covenant blessings and benefits.

Fulfilled in Christ, and in those who are in Christ, and in no others.

God doesn't limit Himself to statements.

His actions demonstrate His justice.

Apparently, and I don't claim to be an expert about these things, not everyone on the planet came through Abraham's bloodline to begin with.

If Noah had 3 sons, only one of those sons did Abraham come through. That being Shem. That's the first thing to take into account, regardless that everyone initially came through Adam, then either through Seth or Cain. Apparently, Cain's line ended at the flood, though. Is one going to argue that Noah's other 2 sons, that their entire lines died off the same way Cain's line did at the flood, prior to Abraham being born?


John 8:37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.

In this part---I know that ye are Abraham's seed---Jesus is meaning that He is fully agreeing with them that they came through Shem's line, since that is the line Abraham came through.

Did Jesus perhaps think any of them came through one of Noah's other sons instead of Shem?

Even so, that Jesus agreed they were Abraham's genetic offspring, Jesus still makes it clear that genes alone are not what keeps one in the kingdom of God. That I think we are on the same page about, thus agree. Where we might not be on the same page, thus maybe not in agreement about, to even be a genetic offspring of Abraham to begin with, it requires that one has to come through Shem's line, and the line after that that led to Abraham. Not everyone on the planet came through Shem's line. All Jews apparently did, though, otherwise how have they determined they were genetic Jews if their lineage can't even be traced back to Shem and the line from Shem that led to Abraham?

 

[Biblewriter]

Where does God prohibit genetic dispersion?

The answer is nowhere, for it was God Himself who initiated multiple genetic dispersions through multiple physical expulsions, over the centuries, of Israelites from their lands due to their unfaithfulness and disobedience. The culmination was the expulsion and dispersion of 70 AD.

As a result, Abraham's physical genes are ubiquitous throughout the human race, and his bloodline is as diluted and intermixed as any on earth.

But flesh profiteth nothing, and it is Abraham's spiritual genes of faith and obedience that are the sole and exclusive determinant of God's Covenant blessings and benefits.

Fulfilled in Christ, and in those who are in Christ, and in no others.

God doesn't limit Himself to statements.

His actions demonstrate His justice.

You are denying explicitly stated scripture, which clearly states that Ephraim and Judah will be brought back to the land and re-united into a single nation, That absolutely all of Israel will again inhabit the land, and that each of the twelve tribes of Israel will receive a tract of the plot of real estate defined in Ezekiel 47:13-20.

All your reasoning is futile against these EXPLICIT statements of the almighty God of the entire universe.