The Contemporary View of Daniel 7.

Marilyn C

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The Contemporary View of Daniel 7.
I was taught this view in the `70`s before the EU rose to power, before the Soviet Union reorganised and when the Arabs were mainly in tents in the desert.

I will just focus on Dan. 7, however there are many other scriptures referring to these Great Powers - Isaiah, Ezekiel, Zechariah and Revelation. We can refer to those, later, as well.

Daniel 7.

The contemporary view holds that these 4 beastly powers that Daniel was given a vision of, are contemporary Great Powers of our time. These are the reasons -

1.Contemporary. These kingdoms, powers were yet to arise. (Dan. 7: 17) They were not in the time of Daniel but contemporary to when the Lord comes in power and great glory.

2.Each Powerful. Each of these great powers are powerful. (Dan. 7: 3)

3.All at the same time. (contemporaneous) Each of these great powers are operating at the same time, for the final beast becomes very powerful and devours and tramples down the other beastly powers. (Dan. 7: 7)

Note also that the first 3 great powers are given an extension of life after the fourth beast is judged and done away with.


The Lion with Eagle`s wings.

`The first (beast) was like a lion, and had eagle`s wings..` (Dan. 7: 4)

The Lion is a symbol of Royal Sovereignty and the eagle of Imperial power. The British Empire controlled nearly a quarter of the world. it was a powerful beast, imperialistically conquering, dominating and colonising.

Then we see a remarkable change. The different colonies are each given the right to rule themselves, but still coexist as a group. In political language, co-existing in freedom, peace and equality.

`...its wings were plucked off; and it was lifted up from the earth and made to stand on two feet like a man, and a man`s heart was given to it.` (Dan. 7: 4)

H.M.Queen Elizabeth 2 as head of the Commonwealth, broadcasted -

`The Commonwealth bears no resemblance to the empires of the past. It is an entirely new conception built on the highest qualities of the Spirit of Man: friendship, loyalty and the desire for freedom and peace.`

There is a fascinating double reference in this - `As I looked its wings were plucked off.` (Dan. 7: 4)

a) The empire lost its capacity for imperialistic expansion.
b) Part of the empire became a separate nation with the eagle as its emblem.


America, (emblem eagle) who originally came from the `Lion,` the British Empire, became totally independent, yet continues to be a dominant and intergral part of this powerful confederacy.


(to be continued. Any comments so far?)
Marilyn.
 

Douggg

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The Contemporary View of Daniel 7.
I was taught this view in the `70`s before the EU rose to power, before the Soviet Union reorganised and when the Arabs were mainly in tents in the desert.

I will just focus on Dan. 7, however there are many other scriptures referring to these Great Powers - Isaiah, Ezekiel, Zechariah and Revelation. We can refer to those, later, as well.

Daniel 7.

The contemporary view holds that these 4 beastly powers that Daniel was given a vision of, are contemporary Great Powers of our time. These are the reasons -

1.Contemporary. These kingdoms, powers were yet to arise. (Dan. 7: 17) They were not in the time of Daniel but contemporary to when the Lord comes in power and great glory.

2.Each Powerful. Each of these great powers are powerful. (Dan. 7: 3)

3.All at the same time. (contemporaneous) Each of these great powers are operating at the same time, for the final beast becomes very powerful and devours and tramples down the other beastly powers. (Dan. 7: 7)

Note also that the first 3 great powers are given an extension of life after the fourth beast is judged and done away with.


The Lion with Eagle`s wings.

`The first (beast) was like a lion, and had eagle`s wings..` (Dan. 7: 4)

The Lion is a symbol of Royal Sovereignty and the eagle of Imperial power. The British Empire controlled nearly a quarter of the world. it was a powerful beast, imperialistically conquering, dominating and colonising.

Then we see a remarkable change. The different colonies are each given the right to rule themselves, but still coexist as a group. In political language, co-existing in freedom, peace and equality.

`...its wings were plucked off; and it was lifted up from the earth and made to stand on two feet like a man, and a man`s heart was given to it.` (Dan. 7: 4)

H.M.Queen Elizabeth 2 as head of the Commonwealth, broadcasted -

`The Commonwealth bears no resemblance to the empires of the past. It is an entirely new conception built on the highest qualities of the Spirit of Man: friendship, loyalty and the desire for freedom and peace.`

There is a fascinating double reference in this - `As I looked its wings were plucked off.` (Dan. 7: 4)

a) The empire lost its capacity for imperialistic expansion.
b) Part of the empire became a separate nation with the eagle as its emblem.


America, (emblem eagle) who originally came from the `Lion,` the British Empire, became totally independent, yet continues to be a dominant and intergral part of this powerful confederacy.


(to be continued. Any comments so far?)
Marilyn.
Marilyn, I think the contemporary view runs into problems is because in both Daniel 2 and Daniel 7, the end is with the everlasting kingdom of God becoming the ruling kingdom here on earth.

Which in Daniel 2, the first of those kingdoms is Babylon represented by Nebuchadnezzar the head of gold.
 
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Marilyn C

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Marilyn, I think the contemporary view runs into problems is because in both Daniel 2 and Daniel 7, the end is with the everlasting kingdom of God becoming the ruling kingdom here on earth.

Which in Daniel 2, the first of those kingdoms is Babylon represented by Nebuchadnezzar the head of gold.

Hi Douggg,

No problems there. I agree that Dan. 2 and Dan. 7 end with the Lord bringing in His rule through Israel over the nations.

Dan. 2 reveals the times of the Gentiles ruling, ending with the last Gentile world rulership. The great Image is of World Rulers. They have been judged and then there is the final Gentile world ruler in our day.
Note there are 5 World world rulers - Babylon, Medes & Persians, Greece, Rome, (all their governments have been judged) and the final one.

Dan. 7 reveals the four great powers leading up to the final Gentile ruler. The last great power is the same as the `feet and toes.` God is giving more detail of the final Gentile ruler before it becomes the world ruler. It is described as a terrifying beastly power, etc. Will deal with that one after the other beasts.

BTW It would be helpful if you pointed out specifically why you see problems - ie with scripture & not just opinion.

regards, Marilyn.
 
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Marilyn C

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First time I've heard of this interpretation of Daniel 7. Very interesting! But I have to say I agree with Brother Doug above.

Hi Jeff,

Glad you have commented. Now could you perhaps wait till all the topic is shared and then you will have a better idea of this view.

Also it would be helpful if you were specific as to what you disagreed with and why.

regards, Marilyn.
 
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Douggg

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Dan. 2 reveals the times of the Gentiles ruling, ending with the last Gentile world rulership. The great Image is of World Rulers. They have been judged and then there is the final Gentile world ruler in our day.
Note there are 5 World world rulers - Babylon, Medes & Persians, Greece, Rome, (all their governments have been judged) and the final one.

Dan. 7 reveals the four great powers leading up to the final Gentile ruler. The last great power is the same as the `feet and toes.`
So why don't you equate the first beast, like a lion with eagle's' wings with Nebuchadnezzar - instead of the British Empire and America ?
 
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tranquil

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So why don't you equate the first beast, like a lion with eagle's' wings with Nebuchadnezzar - instead of the British Empire and America ?

If you interpret Daniel 2's kingdom of heaven as Jesus's spiritual kingdom from 2000 years ago, the Dan 2 4th kingdom is the Daniel 7 4th Beast.

If you interpret Daniel 2's kingdom of heaven as the kingdom of heaven of Revelation 11
15The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said:

“The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah, and he will reign for ever and ever.”​

then the Dan 2 kingdoms correlate to the Dan 7 beasts because
Dan 2:44 “In the time of those kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed, nor will it be left to another people. It will crush all those kingdoms and bring them to an end, but it will itself endure forever.
The 'time of those kings' means that all 4 of the Dan 2 kingdoms are present at the time of the 7th Trumpet. Babylon doesn't exist now, so how could it be in the 'time of this king' that the 7th trumpet sounds?

Thus, Dan 2 has nothing to do with ancient Babylon, Persia, Greece and the kingdom of heaven that is to be set up shortly.
 
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Douggg

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If you interpret Daniel 2's kingdom of heaven as Jesus's spiritual kingdom from 2000 years ago, the Dan 2 4th kingdom is the Daniel 7 4th Beast.

If you interpret Daniel 2's kingdom of heaven as the kingdom of heaven of Revelation 11
15The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said:

“The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah, and he will reign for ever and ever.”​

then the Dan 2 kingdoms correlate to the Dan 7 beasts because
Dan 2:44 “In the time of those kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed, nor will it be left to another people. It will crush all those kingdoms and bring them to an end, but it will itself endure forever.
The 'time of those kings' means that all 4 of the Dan 2 kingdoms are present at the time of the 7th Trumpet. Babylon doesn't exist now, so how could it be in the 'time of this king' that the 7th trumpet sounds?

Thus, Dan 2 has nothing to do with ancient Babylon, Persia, Greece and the kingdom of heaven that is to be set up shortly.
When Jesus returns, He brings the Kingdom of Heaven to this earth to be the Kingdom of God on earth.

In the days of the ten toes, kings, in Daniel 2 and Daniel 7; the ten kings subservient to the little horn king.
 
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RandyPNW

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The Contemporary View of Daniel 7.
I was taught this view in the `70`s before the EU rose to power, before the Soviet Union reorganised and when the Arabs were mainly in tents in the desert.

I will just focus on Dan. 7, however there are many other scriptures referring to these Great Powers - Isaiah, Ezekiel, Zechariah and Revelation. We can refer to those, later, as well.

I still see things more literally, as a prophecy of the 4 empires, Babylon, Persia, Greece, and Rome. Nebuchadnezzar had his mind and rule taken from him for awhile, and he appeared to have nails that looked like animal claws, and hair that looked like eagle's feathers.

The 4th Beast seems to be the Roman Empire, which is the last empire mentioned before the coming of the Kingdom of God. It is the Kingdom that crucified Christ, and tormented the Early Church. It is also a Kingdom that endured for hundreds of years, but transitioned into new forms, dividing into States. We're told the 4th Beast evolves into 10 kings, or states, that will be consolidated, or reunited under the Antichrist.

This is the literal interpretation of the prophecy, without confusing it. But it is possible that a pattern is also providing some kind of cabbalistic or esoteric profile so that we may see, in our time, 4 other kingdoms evolve with similar characteristics. How could the great kingdoms of NT history not be equally significant--kingdoms like the U.S. and Russia?

Indeed Great Britain has controlled more of the earth than even Genghis Khan or the Soviet Union. And it indeed it is viewed as a lion, England's symbol. So could the 1st Beast of Dan 7 have a secondary reference to England, since they both share the "lion" symbol? I don't know.

The Bear in Dan 7 is a large animal and may appropriately represent Russia, often referred to by outsiders as a bear. Russia's symbol, however, is an eagle, it seems.

So could it also be referenced, mysteriously, by the bear symbol in Dan 7? I don't know.

I do get confused trying to take symbols from how they were meant to be applied and apply them to more recent historical events. However, I believe that *everything* in history is significant, and is at least as significant as the original applications.

The primary purpose of the prophecy is to show that the 4th Kingdom would be dominant on earth until the coming of Christ's Kingdom. I believe this to be the Roman Imperial Tradition in Europe. This Roman tradition presently exists from the U.S. to Russia. And we all know how important Europe has played in world events since the time of the ancient Roman Empire.

We are told the Beast contains the same characteristics as these ancient empire. I'm curious to know what gives European culture these characteristics today?

Rev 13.2 The beast I saw resembled a leopard, but had feet like those of a bear and a mouth like that of a lion.

As history evolved, the original blueprint of lion and bear in our day may be viewed as on a much larger drawing board. The supreme power of Babylon is eclipsed by the "lion" of England in history, which controlled 1/4 of the world at one time. And the large territorial kingdom of Persia, an Eastern power, has been greatly eclipsed by Russia, who in the time of the Soviet Empire controlled a huge chunk of the East.

Perhaps there is an allusion to the current shape of European Romanism, which stretches from the UK to Russia? It's a question...
 
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TribulationSigns

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Oh boy, what I am reading here so far is more of the blind leading the blind with typical newspaper eschatology looking for the modern nation(s) to fit their flawed premillennial doctrines.

This is an example of the traditional interpretations of the four kings of Daniel chapter 7 usually is that they are literal empires. However, I've studied this enough to know that this is not true. When we examine the Scriptures more carefully we see that God is not interested in history lessons of worldly empires, but is illustrating spiritual truths. For example:

Daniel 7:2-3
  • "Daniel spake and said, I saw in my vision by night, and, behold, the four winds of the heaven strove upon the great sea.
  • And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another."
God has inspired these truths to be written in cryptic symbolism. For example, patterned after four literal ruling Kingdoms (Chaldea, Persian, Greece and Rome), but symbolizing a spiritual rule in the earth. These four beasts are spiritual pictures of the construct from which Satan rules, which is through carnal man. In other words, the four beasts actually symbolize systemic carnal world rule. In fact, in Revelation chapter 13 we can see these very same beasts pictured as one single beast that has all the aspects of these four beasts illustrated in Daniel chapter 7. I believe that they are four here to symbolize the "universality" of this rule of Satan over the peoples of the world. The number 4 symbolizes universality. The beasts are kings, which symbolize rules. The wind many times is synonymous with spirit, and by this prophesy referring to "the four winds of the heaven," it implies the Holy Spirit. Horns are symbolic of power and strength. The winds of heaven here are an illustration that God ultimately controls all the universe, both good and bad (Revelation 7:7). The sea is the tumultuous world, or peoples of the world, often spoken of as humanity. And the beasts that came up from the sea "symbolize" epocs, dominions that successively emerge from the tumultuous disturbances of the world (mimicking the tumultuous sea -As Isaiah 13:4). Even as when Christ calmed the tumultuous sea it was illustrating His rule over the wicked forces of the world that would destroy His disciples in their ship (Church). So these four kings symbolize their universal rule. Diverse or different because they differ in symbolism, purpose, and strength.

Do you honestly think God wanted you to search for a modern nation or empire to represent the beast? You will be disappointed. Rather, the beast themselves is the systemic rule of Satan, "through carnal men," that are "as beasts," I believe that it's talking about Satan, and his ministers of unrighteousness, which are people. And thus how Satan rules through them to attack the Lord's people. Nothing to do with land with a geographical border against your precious national Israel. It is people against God's Elect in the New Testament Congregation all over the world that the beast is "TYPE" of!
 
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Douggg

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Do you honestly think God wanted you to search for a modern nation or empire to represent the beast?
You stated it backwards. The beast represents a kingdom, not a kingdom represents a beast.
 
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TribulationSigns

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Which in Daniel 2, the first of those kingdoms is Babylon represented by Nebuchadnezzar the head of gold.

Nope! This is not who Daniel was speaking to. Please read the Scripture carefully:

Dan 2:31-38
(31) Thou, O king, sawest, and behold a great image. This great image, whose brightness was excellent, stood before thee; and the form thereof was terrible.
(32) This image's head was of fine gold, his breast and his arms of silver, his belly and his thighs of brass,
(33) His legs of iron, his feet part of iron and part of clay.
(34) Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces.
(35) Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.
(36) This is the dream; and we will tell the interpretation thereof before the king.
(37) Thou, O king, art a king of kings: for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory.
(38) And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou art this head of gold.

You thought God acknowledged Nebuchadnezzar's great power and dominion inthis prophecy. However, He was also using Nebuchadnezzar to REPRESENT someone else! daneil said that the head of gold ruled over "ALL" people and over "ALL" the beasts of the earth, and "ALL" the birds of the sky. Clearly, the scope of this rule is much wider than any earthly king has ever achieved!

Do you realize that there was a king in the spiritual realm, who did attain such rule? Who was he that the kingdom was GIVEN to by God? He is Satan. How? Because he was successful in making Adam and Eve disobey God in the Garden of Eden, he inherited spiritual dominion over the creation. Didn't you read the Scripture where Satan offered Jesus in the wilderness that confirms this point?

Luk 4:5-8
(5) And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time.

(6) And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it.
(7) If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine.
(8) And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

See? Satan's claim here about the creation, including nations being delivered to him! Of all kings, therefore, only Satan fits the statement:

"wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he [the God of heaven] given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou art this head of gold."​

Of course, King Nebuchadnezzar does not qualify! Daniel was speaking to the spiritual king, Satan through Nebuchadnezzar! Satan was strong and powerful at that time and since the fall of man at the Garden of Eden, but as the great image processes to silver, brass, and iron, etc., his kingdom has become spiritually weaker. Can you guess when Satan's rule on all people has been broken? You need to have the "spiritual" eyes to see it, rather than carnally-minded.
 
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TribulationSigns

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You stated it backwards. The beast represents a kingdom, not a kingdom represents a beast.

The beast represents the BODY of Satan's kingdom which is people he has kept in spiritual bondage! Don't forget what the sea represents where it comes from! Do you think God talked about King Nebuchadnezzar having rule over literal birds or animals? In South America? Come on. No. It is not about some literal geography nations or empires you play around with school globe.

Did you also actually think God said that King Nebuchadnezzar rule or has influence over people in the Far East, Europe, or America from his throne in Babylon? No, only Satan can! Do you even know what the beast and birds represent in Scripture?

Zep 1:3-6
(3) I will consume man and beast; I will consume the fowls of the heaven, and the fishes of the sea, and the stumblingblocks with the wicked; and I will cut off man from off the land, saith the LORD.
(4) I will also stretch out mine hand upon Judah, and upon all the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and I will cut off the remnant of Baal from this place, and the name of the Chemarims with the priests;
(5) And them that worship the host of heaven upon the housetops; and them that worship and that swear by the LORD, and that swear by Malcham;
(6) And them that are turned back from the LORD; and those that have not sought the LORD, nor enquired for him.

Who do you think God sees as birds, fishes, and beast? Didn't God sees his unfaithful people "AS" birds, fishes, beast? Okay, how about when God has made King Nebuchadnezzar AS beast...eating grass as oxen for 7 years to make a point? You do need to find what these spiritually represent! Same with birds, beasts, and men in Daniel 2!

Daniel 2:38
(38) And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou art this head of gold.
 
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Douggg

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Of course, King Nebuchadnezzar does not qualify! Daniel was speaking to the spiritual king, Satan through Nebuchadnezzar! Satan was strong and powerful at that time and since the fall of man at the Garden of Eden, but as the great image processes to silver, brass, and iron, etc., his kingdom has become spiritually weaker. Can you guess when Satan's rule on all people has been broken? You need to have the "spiritual" eyes to see it, rather than carnally-minded.
So, using that principle, therefore Ezekiel in Ezekiel 28:1-10 is not speaking to the prince of tyre, but instead to the end times Antichrist person who when he reveals himself as the man of sin, sits in the temple, claiming to have achieved God-hood?

And that Ezekiel was speaking to Satan - not the king of Tyre - in Ezekiel 28:12-19, that when he gets cast down to earth in Revelation 12:7-9, having only a time/times/half times left - that he will be a terror, but a terror no more when Jesus returns, exposing Satan to the kings of the earth, and casting Satan into the bottomless pit?


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DavidPT

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The beast represents the BODY of Satan's kingdom which is people he has kept in spiritual bondage!


If the beast represents that, who does his armies represent? Clearly, the beast and it's armies, they are not the same thing. If anything, I can somewhat see the logic in it's armies maybe representing "the BODY of Satan's kingdom which is people he has kept in spiritual bondage". Except it's armies can't be representing them though, you already have the beast representing them.
 
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TribulationSigns

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So, using that principle, therefore Ezekiel in Ezekiel 28:1-10 is not speaking to the prince of tyre, but instead to the end times Antichrist person who when he reveals himself as the man of sin, sits in the temple, claiming to have achieved God-hood?

And that Ezekiel was speaking to Satan - not the king of Tyre - in Ezekiel 28:12-19, that when he gets cast down to earth in Revelation 12:7-9, having only a time/times/half times left - that he will be a terror, but a terror no more when Jesus returns, exposing Satan to the kings of the earth, and casting Satan into the bottomless pit?

It never ceases to amaze me how you flee from Daniel 2 and used Ezekiel 28 by twist it to suit your own purposes or to condone your own personal views. Like Alice in wonderland, it just gets curious-er and curious-er. It always does with you, because you always seem to attempt to teach when you haven't yet been taught.

The whole chapter of Ezekiel 28 is nothing of sort on what you were trying to have us believe. A supernatural man sits in a physical third temple in Jerusalem, claimed to be god. yeah, right.
 
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TribulationSigns

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If the beast represents that, who does his armies represent? Clearly, the beast and it's armies, they are not the same thing. If anything, I can somewhat see the logic in it's armies maybe representing "the BODY of Satan's kingdom which is people he has kept in spiritual bondage". Except it's armies can't be representing them though, you already have the beast representing them.

Clearly the world comes up into the church because of the unfaithfulness of its members. That is precisely why the church is judged of God. It has become a harlot committing spiritual fornication by having men rule her instead of God (her betrothed). That is the point God is making in the Scriptures. The world hasn't joined forces per se', the people of God have compromised, colluded, and finally fallen to the world's army that Satan has brought against them. The world is allowed into the church through the people's rebellion against the unadulterated word. It's not the world's fault, it is specifically the churches doing, the church's fault. Are the Muslims destroying God's church? No! Is the Government destroying God's church? No! Are the politicians destroying God's church? No! Will the armies of the world all "physically" get together and attack the churches? No. That would be ridiculous. And what church would they attack? Then what church is it, and who is it that is truly destroying God's church? ...same as it ever was:

Jeremiah 12:7-12
  • "I have forsaken mine house, I have left mine heritage; I have given the dearly beloved of my soul into the hand of her enemies.
  • Mine heritage is unto me as a lion in the forest; it crieth out against me: therefore have I hated it.
  • Mine heritage is unto me as a speckled bird, the birds round about are against her; come ye, assemble all the beasts of the field, come to devour.
  • Many pastors have destroyed my vineyard, they have trodden my portion under foot, they have made my pleasant portion a desolate wilderness.
  • They have made it desolate, and being desolate it mourneth unto me; the whole land is made desolate, because no man layeth it to heart.
  • The spoilers are come upon all high places through the wilderness: for the sword of the LORD shall devour from the one end of the land even to the other end of the land: no flesh shall have peace."
What happened with national Israel as Old Testament representative of God's Kingdom on Earth was only an example for the Church today as New Testament represenative of God's kingdom on Earth. Prior to Second Coming, God called the beasts to come and assemble against His people, so it is when Satan is loosed. Lest we forget, he is loosed by God who bound him in the first place so that the church could be built. Shall I say that again, "So the Church could be built of the nations!" First, and THEN after this, Satan is loosed, that task will have been completed. My point? It's always the Pastors, the unfaithful and deceived people of the Lord's house, who destroy the Lord's house and cause Him to bring judgment upon the congregations. All throughout Biblical history we see this with Old Testament Israel! Nothing has changed from the beginning when it was Cain who murdered Abel over jealousy of a sacrifice to God.

MY ANSWER TO YOU. Look at the city of Tyre for example! It is those within it led by the spirit of Antichrist that is turning it away from the laws and values it once treasured, to the ways of the world. They are the ones who let the armies of the world come against the saints. It is spiritual warfare. It's all a spiritual picture of the world coming up into the church. Even as we have today where you can't very easily tell the world from the church anymore!

I guess your question is, why do I concentrate on the people within the church? Because they are those whom God holds responsible, not government leaders of the world, not the dance clubs, politicians, or the gambling casinos of the world, not Iran, but those of the church. Why should I concentrate on evil worldly happenings that have occurred through the wickedness of men from the beginning of time, when the point God is making is that it is the church that is the unfaithful Harlot. There's no image of Russia or China destroying the people of God, it is the harlot. She has doted on her many lovers of the world. When Satan gathers together an army from the nations (Gentiles/Unbelievers), who do you think they are? These are Professing Christians who are welcomed into the church because its rulers (false prophets and Christs - beasts) have abandoned the precepts that would have kept them from overcoming the church. In Biblical terms, they have taken down their armaments. They are in agreement with hell and death, and the weapons of their warfare were not used against these pretenders. That's how Satan overcomes the church, in case you have not noticed!

Oh yes, concentrating on the elect after they come out of the church and its great tribulation is an excursion that totally misses the point. As usual, it seems that the weapons of the Lord's people are misdirected.
 
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Douggg

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It never ceases to amaze me how you flee from Daniel 2 and used Ezekiel 28 by twist it to suit your own purposes or to condone your own personal views. Like Alice in wonderland, it just gets curious-er and curious-er. It always does with you, because you always seem to attempt to teach when you haven't yet been taught.

The whole chapter of Ezekiel 28 is nothing of sort on what you were trying to have us believe. A supernatural man sits in a physical third temple in Jerusalem, claimed to be god. yeah, right.
So, you believe that Nebuchadnezzar in Daniel 2 is really talking about Satan, but the anointed cherub in Ezekiel 28:12-19 v14 is really talking about the human King of Tyre, and not Satan?

And the Prince of Tyre in Ezekiel 28:1-10 is talking about the actual prince of Tyre?
 
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TribulationSigns

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So, you believe that Nebuchadnezzar in Daniel 2 is really talking about Satan, but the anointed cherub in Ezekiel 28:12-19 v14 is really talking about the human King of Tyre, and not Satan?

And the Prince of Tyre in Ezekiel 28:1-10 is talking about the actual prince of Tyre?

You were not reading very well.

First, Daniel was prophesied about Satan and his kingdom THROUGH Nebuchadnezzar. Nebuchadnezzar (as well as you) thought Daniel was talking about him. No. He was referring to Satan's spiritual kingdom, first the gold, then the silver, etc. Not human empires or kings. Selah?

Second, I did not say anything about the "actual prince of Tyre" AS you were expecting a human prince in the days of Tyre. No, God was talking about ADAM! Do you even know what Tyre spiritually represents in Scripture? Since when you ever actually study Scripture to find out with the word, Tyre?! God sees Adam as prince of Tyre whom He has made perfect in the Garden of Eden...UNTIL the iniquity (sin) was found in Adam.

And I am not surprised if you do not understand who the anointed cherub really was. Edify yourself with this article. Many theologians (any myself included) got the whole idea of Cherubim being "angels" in the first place. The source of confusion is of course in Ezekiel 28:14. The covering Cherub is the king of Tyrus, NOT an angel. They assume the cherub must be Satan as a fallen angel, blah, blah. But that is not the accurate interpretation. Remember "assumption is the mother of error." The article will explain everything... if you will take your time reading.
 
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