The Error of Lordship Salvation?

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d taylor

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Is calling Jesus the Son of God the same as believing in his blood (Romans 3:5)
for the remission of your sin?

But before Paul became a believer, you would not have found him doing wondrous works
in Jesus' name as those in Matthew 7:22 were doing.

Like Paul, does not their behavior and the actions reported in Matthew 7:22 indicate they believed in Jesus?

Why would they be doing all those works and expecting to be with him in eternity if they did not believe in him?

It is The Messiah that a person has to believe in to receive Eternal Life. The whole Gospel of John makes the case that Jesus is The promised Messiah from the prophecies of The Tanakh. there are 8 miracles Jesus did showing He is who He says He is. They did not point to The Messiah blood but to The Messiah.

Why are you focusing on sins, Jesus took away the sin of the world. Sin is not an obstacle for a person in receiving Eternal Life, sin does not stand in the way.

What Paul was doing before he became a believer, he was murdering believers.

If their works point to them being a believe why do Jesus say away from Him

‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’


The same reason anyone does works expecting to be in heaven, they do not believe the free promise of Eternal Life offered by God. They believe they can obtain it, and not receive it
 
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d taylor

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I never made the connection that you did with "sprang up" and the three soils. It is a common denominator of those soils, but does it have the significance you're giving it? I will have to sit with that a bit. But I like it. Do you know if it's the same Greek in both this passage and the soils?
I never made the connection that you did with "sprang up" and the three soils. It is a common denominator of those soils, but does it have the significance you're giving it? I will have to sit with that a bit. But I like it. Do you know if it's the same Greek in both this passage and the soils?

I have never checked, i may google strongs and compare since you mentioned it.
 
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d taylor

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I never made the connection that you did with "sprang up" and the three soils. It is a common denominator of those soils, but does it have the significance you're giving it? I will have to sit with that a bit. But I like it. Do you know if it's the same Greek in both this passage and the soils?

Not the same word but here are the comparisons.

From Luke 8
Strong's Greek: 5453. φύω (phuó) -- to bring forth, produce

From John 4
Strong's Greek: 242. ἅλλομαι (hallomai) -- to leap

Strong's Greek: 4077. πηγή (pégé) -- a spring (of water)
 
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Clare73

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It is The Messiah that a person has to believe in to receive Eternal Life. The whole Gospel of John makes the case that Jesus is The promised Messiah from the prophecies of The Tanakh. there are 8 miracles Jesus did showing He is who He says He is.
They did not point to The Messiah blood but to The Messiah.
See Romans 3:25.
.
 
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d taylor

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See Romans 3:25.
.

Are you posting 3:25 to say that it is not The Messiah one needs to trust in, but His blood for Eternal Life

whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed,


 
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Clare73

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Are you posting 3:25 to say that it is not The Messiah one needs to trust in, but His blood for Eternal Life

whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed,
I'm posting Romans 3:25 because it is the word of God stating that savng faith is in the person and the work of Jesus for the remiitance of one's sin and right standing with God's justice; i.e., "not guilty."
 
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d taylor

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I'm posting Romans 3:25 because it is the word of God stating that savng faith is in the person and the work of Jesus for the remiitance of one's sin and right standing with God's justice; i.e., "not guilty."

So are you saying a person has to not only believe in The Messiah for Eternal Life, but also believe in His work.

So if a person say on an island (who has not come in contact with christianity) comes across part of a page of The Bible, like the part below.

Can they have Eternal Life if they read these verses and believe in Jesus for everlasting life.

Jesus therefore answered and said to them, “Do not murmur among yourselves. No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’ Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me. Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father. Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life. I am the bread of life. Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead. This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that one may eat of it and not die. I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world.”
 
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Daniel Martinovich

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Heresy is not a term that I use very often, but Lordship salvation is so contrary to the Reformation doctrine of grace alone through faith alone that I cannot help but condemn it. Lordship salvation teaches that one cannot receive Jesus as Savior without submitting to Him as Lord.

This is a destructive heresy, because it confuses justification with sanctification. By faith alone, our sins are forgiven, due to the price Jesus already paid on the cross. Once saved, we are called to a life of good works, in gratitude for our salvation, rather than in fear of not earning it.

Lordship salvation teachers are like modern-day Pharisees:



I am not saying that believers in Lordship salvation are unsaved, because only Jesus can judge their hearts. Their teaching, however, is destructive, because it turns people away who would otherwise be saved. When Jesus forgave the thief on the cross, his belief was enough.

This is Jesus' warning for Lordship salvation teachers today:



Please note that they call Jesus "Lord," and attempt to justify themselves by their works, and Jesus' answer is "I never knew you. Depart from me."
What is the work of God that profits unto salvation?



Good works should be the fruit, rather than the condition, of our salvation:



The free grace of the Gospel goes against human reasoning. How could faith, apart from works, save us? It seems too simple, too good to be true. Paul had something to say about this:



It might seem foolish that looking at a brass snake alone saved the Israelites from dying of snake venom, but that's the provision God provided:



Searching difficult Biblical passages on https://faithalone.org can be very helpful. Pretty much every passage used to justify good works as a condition of salvation really has to do with forfeiting eternal rewards. There is a difference.

What is the purpose of there being rewards in heaven? | GotQuestions.org

While we enter heaven as a free gift through faith, our level of reward is based on our level of discipleship. We should take the promise of rewards seriously, but it's not the same as salvation.

Nowhere does Genesis indicate that Lot had a holy life, surrendered to God as Master of his life. And yet, according to 2 Peter 2:7, Lot was a righteous man.

This is because Lot was declared righteous by his faith, rather than by works. (Romans 4:5) We can also look at the lives of King Solomon, King David, and numerous others.

In the words of Martin Luther, “Through faith in Christ, therefore, Christ’s righteousness becomes our righteousness and all that He has becomes ours; rather, He Himself becomes ours.”

While we should live a holier life than Lot did, it’s not required for salvation. This is the difference between justification and sanctification, faith and discipleship, entering heaven and being rewarded in heaven.

It just seems to me that you don’t have the subject all worked out in your head. How Obedience to the faith is worked by every individual is conditional, based on their circumstances and the God who knows everything is dealing with them. But embracing faith as a response to heavens initiation is in fact a work, an act of obedience to the Lord who is actually the Lord.

Our perceptions of scripture have a lot to do with differing inherent personality types. There needs to be a balance between the weaknesses and strengths of those perception. It’s why we are a body and Jesus is the head. No individual has everything worked out.
 
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Humble_Disciple

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It just seems to me that you don’t have the subject all worked out in your head.

In this video, Dr. Tony Evans explains these things better than I can:


This is one of the best sermons I've ever heard.
 
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Clare73

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So are you saying a person has to not only believe in The Messiah for Eternal Life, but also believe in His work.
So if a person say on an island (who has not come in contact with christianity) comes across part of a page of The Bible, like the part below.
Can they have Eternal Life if they read these verses and believe in Jesus for everlasting life.

Jesus therefore answered and said to them, “Do not murmur among yourselves. No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’ Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me. Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father. Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life. I am the bread of life. Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead. This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that one may eat of it and not die. I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world.”
We are responsible for what we know, not what we don't know.

I don't do hypotheticas, they are meaningless. . .no more.
 
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Clare73

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It just seems to me that you don’t have the subject all worked out in your head. How Obedience to the faith is worked by every individual is conditional, based on their circumstances and the God who knows everything is dealing with them. But embracing faith as a response to heavens initiation is in fact a work,
Work is performance, action. . .faith is not performance, action. . . it's a disposition.
of obedience to the Lord who is actually the Lord.

Our perceptions of scripture have a lot to do with differing inherent personality types. There needs to be a balance between the weaknesses and strengths of those perception. It’s why we are a body and Jesus is the head. No individual has everything worked out.
 
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Daniel Martinovich

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Work is performance, action. . .faith is not performance, action. . . it's a disposition.
Really? Not a choice that results in certain dispositions? News to me.
 
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Palmfever

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It isn't faith vs works, it's faith that works.
Because of their faith, These men acted. They performed the work. “But they that wait upon the Lord shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint.” Suppose you were at a restaurant and the waitress/waiter leaned up against the wall staring at you, Expecting you to serve yourself, Are they waiting on you? Sure, go on, give them a great tip. To wait on someone is to serve them… So we see these men acted on their faith. Why? Because “Faith without works is dead.” There would be no nation from Abraham, Noah would have drowned.

Heb 11:3 By faith we understand that the worlds were set in order at God’s command, so that the visible has its origin in the invisible. Heb 11:4 By faith Abel offered God a greater sacrifice than Cain, and through his faith he was commended as righteous, because God commended him for his offerings. And through his faith he still speaks, though he is dead. Heb 11:5 By faith Enoch was taken up so that he did not see death, and he was not to be found because God took him up. For before his removal he had been commended as having pleased God. Heb 11:6 Now without faith it is impossible to please him, for the one who approaches God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him. Heb 11:7 By faith Noah, when he was warned about things not yet seen, with reverent regard constructed an ark for the deliverance of his family. Through faith he condemned the world and became an heir of the righteousness that comes by faith. Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to a place he would later receive as an inheritance, and he went out without understanding where he was going. Heb 11:9 By faith he lived as a foreigner in the promised land as though it were a foreign country, living in tents with Isaac and Jacob, who were fellow heirs of the same promise. Heb 11:10 For he was looking forward to the city with firm foundations, whose architect and builder is God.

Romans 4:19 Without weakening in his faith, he faced the fact that his body was as good as dead—since he was about a hundred years old—and that Sarah’s womb was also dead. 20 Yet he did not waver through unbelief regarding the promise of God, but was strengthened in his faith and gave glory to God,

Faith that works

Heb 11:13 These all died in faith without receiving the things promised, but they saw them in the distance and welcomed them and acknowledged that they were strangers and foreigners on the earth. Heb 11:14 For those who speak in such a way make it clear that they are seeking a homeland. Heb 11:15 In fact, if they had been thinking of the land that they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. Heb 11:16 But as it is, they aspire to a better land, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore, God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them. Heb 11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac. He had received the promises, yet he was ready to offer up his only son. Heb 11:18 God had told him, “Through Isaac descendants will carry on your name,” Heb 11:19 and he reasoned that God could even raise him from the dead, and in a sense he received him back from there. Heb 11:20 By faith also Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau concerning the future. Heb 11:21 By faith Jacob, as he was dying, blessed each of the sons of Joseph and worshiped as he leaned on his staff. Heb 11:22 By faith Joseph, at the end of his life, mentioned the exodus of the sons of Israel and gave instructions about his burial. Heb 11:23 By faith, when Moses was born, his parents hid him for three months, because they saw the child was beautiful and they were not afraid of the king’s edict. Heb 11:24 By faith, when he grew up, Moses refused to be called the son of Pharaoh’s daughter, Heb 11:25 choosing rather to be ill-treated with the people of God than to enjoy sin’s fleeting pleasure. Heb 11:26 He regarded abuse suffered for Christ to be greater wealth than the treasures of Egypt, for his eyes were fixed on the reward. Heb 11:27 By faith he left Egypt without fearing the king’s anger, for he persevered as though he could see the one who is invisible. Heb 11:28 By faith he kept the Passover and the sprinkling of the blood, so that the one who destroyed the firstborn would not touch them. Heb 11:29 By faith they crossed the Red Sea as if on dry ground, but when the Egyptians tried it, they were swallowed up. Heb 11:30 By faith the walls of Jericho fell after the people marched around them for seven days. Heb 11:31 By faith Rahab the prostitute escaped the destruction of the disobedient, because she welcomed the spies in peace. Heb 11:32 And what more shall I say? For time will fail me if I tell of Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, of David and Samuel and the prophets. Heb 11:33 Through faith they conquered kingdoms, administered justice, gained what was promised, shut the mouths of lions, Heb 11:34 quenched raging fire, escaped the edge of the sword, gained strength in weakness, became mighty in battle, put foreign armies to flight, Heb 11:35 and women received back their dead raised to life. But others were tortured, not accepting release, to obtain resurrection to a better life. Heb 11:36 And others experienced mocking and flogging, and even chains and imprisonment. Heb 11:37 They were stoned, sawed apart, murdered with the sword; they went about in sheepskins and goatskins; they were destitute, afflicted, ill-treated Heb 11:38 (the world was not worthy of them); they wandered in deserts and mountains and caves and openings in the earth. Heb 11:39 And these all were commended for their faith, yet they did not receive what was promised. Heb 11:40 For God had provided something better for us, so that they would be made perfect together with us.

John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments. 21. He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

Back to the waiter/waitress

We have a job, do it.
 
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Humble_Disciple

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Please keep in mind that salvation by grace alone through faith alone doesn't mean that you can go on sinning however much you want.

Even if you are saved from eternal damnation in hell, God can still punish or harshly test you in this life as a consequence of your sins.

Also, those who live a sinful life, though they may not be losing their salvation, are forfeiting the potential rewards they could be earning in heaven:

We Believe in Rewards – Grace Evangelical Society

Another problem some Christians have with the doctrine of rewards is that this doctrine seems to them to appeal to our “selfishness.” Such Christian brothers may go on to say that we do not need to be motivated this way. Instead, we ought to do all that we do for God out of love and gratitude to Him.

This point of view, however, confronts a serious problem of its own. Not only is a doctrine of rewards taught in Scripture, but we are actually commanded to pursue them. Thus Jesus said:

“Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth… but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also” (Matt 6:19-21).

We may observe here that our Lord does not present the pursuit of heavenly treasure as though it were optional. On the contrary, it is clear that He wants every disciple of His to lay up this celestial wealth.
We Believe in Rewards – Grace Evangelical Society
 
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d taylor

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The road to Eternal Life is narrow (constricted)
“Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it.
Because narrow is the gate and confined (constricted) is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.

The way is narrow, that is the way to Eternal Life is through faith in The Messiah.

So as repentance, obedience, confession, following God's word and any other action a person may perform or do, widens the gate.
It can be seen when the gate widens, it leads to destruction.​
 
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Humble_Disciple

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1 Samuel 15:22 says that obedience is better than sacrifice. What is obedience to God under the New Covenant? In the words of Jesus, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent." (John 6:29)

If we perform good works, various sacrifices to earn our salvation, it will be displeasing to the Lord. Good works should be in gratitude for our salvation, rather than in attempt to earn our salvation.
 
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Humble_Disciple

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In Philippians 3, Paul refers to those who try to justify themselves by works of the law, rather than by simple faith, as dogs and evil doers:

Philippians 3
2 Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the mutilation! 3 For we are the circumcision, who worship [a]God in the Spirit, rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh, 4 though I also might have confidence in the flesh. If anyone else thinks he may have confidence in the flesh, I more so: 5 circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of the Hebrews; concerning the law, a Pharisee; 6 concerning zeal, persecuting the church; concerning the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

7 But what things were gain to me, these I have counted loss for Christ. 8 Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ 9 and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith.

Our good works are "counted as rubbish" compared to Jesus' perfect sacrifice on the cross.
 
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Humble_Disciple

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