The physical descendants of the ancient nation of Israel.

[jgr]

Spiritual discernment does not EVER, IN ANY CASE, do away with what God EXPLICITLY said in PLAIN, CLEAR words.

1 Corinthians 2
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

The things of the Spirit of God are spiritually discerned.

In the absence of spiritual discernment, there is nothing but the foolishness and ignorance of the natural man.

That is what God has said EXPLICITLY in PLAIN, CLEAR words.

 

[Biblewriter]

1 Corinthians 2
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

The things of the Spirit of God are spiritually discerned.

In the absence of spiritual discernment, there is nothing but the foolishness and ignorance of the natural man.

That is what God has said EXPLICITLY in PLAIN, CLEAR words.

Yes, God has EXPLICITLY said that, in PLAIN, CLEAR words, But THAT does not nullify ANY other thing else He also EXPLICITLY said in PLAIN, CLEAR words.

You are denying what God EXPLICITLY said, based on what YOU IMAGINE is "spiritual discernment." But God NEVER, EVEN ONCE actually said what you IMAGINE He meant.

 

[jgr]

Yes, God has EXPLICITLY said that, in PLAIN, CLEAR words, But THAT does not nullify ANY other thing else He also EXPLICITLY said in PLAIN, CLEAR words.

You are denying what God EXPLICITLY said, based on what YOU IMAGINE is "spiritual discernment." But God NEVER, EVEN ONCE actually said what you IMAGINE He meant.

Did ANY other thing that God EXPLICITLY said in PLAIN, CLEAR words nullify what He EXPLICITLY said in PLAIN, CLEAR words in 1 Corinthians 2:13-15?

 

[jgr]

Yes, God has EXPLICITLY said that, in PLAIN, CLEAR words, But THAT does not nullify ANY other thing else He also EXPLICITLY said in PLAIN, CLEAR words.

You are denying what God EXPLICITLY said, based on what YOU IMAGINE is "spiritual discernment." But God NEVER, EVEN ONCE actually said what you IMAGINE He meant.

You've been continually invited to tell us what YOU imagine.

You continually refuse.

We're still waiting to see what YOU imagine about Galatians 3:16,28,29.

What's the problem?

 

[keras]

The arguments in this thread could go on forever, because the factor which resolves it is overlooked.

You all know there are two Houses of Israel, Judah; the Jews and Israel: the ten Northern tribes. They are mentioned separately in over 160 Bible verses.
Jesus was born into the House of Judah, He had to be as a descendant of David.
Jesus preached for 3 1/2 years to the Jews, with very little success.
But He said He was sent to save the House of Israel. Matthew 15:24
He even said it was to the house of Israel alone. Not the House of Judah!

He sent out the Apostles after Pentecost and they did the job and we Christians are the result. WE are the 'lost' House of Israel, either by descent or by grafting in, or both and we Christians are the Overcomers for God; literally His Israelites.

Another proof of this truth, is the 20 or more prophesies that tell of the virtual demise of Jewish Israel. Only a remnant will survive.
To believe in a general Jewish redemption is to directly contradict much Prophecy.

 

[Douggg]

The arguments in this thread could go on forever, because the factor which resolves it is overlooked.

You all know there are two Houses of Israel, Judah; the Jews and Israel: the ten Northern tribes. They are mentioned separately in over 160 Bible verses.
Jesus was born into the House of Judah, He had to be as a descendant of David.
Jesus preached for 3 1/2 years to the Jews, with very little success.
But He said He was sent to save the House of Israel. Matthew 15:24
He even said it was to the house of Israel alone. Not the House of Judah!

He sent out the Apostles after Pentecost and they did the job and we Christians are the result. WE are the 'lost' House of Israel, either by descent or by grafting in, or both and we Christians are the Overcomers for God; literally His Israelites.

Another proof of this truth, is the 20 or more prophesies that tell of the virtual demise of Jewish Israel. Only a remnant will survive.
To believe in a general Jewish redemption is to directly contradict much Prophecy.

i don't know why we can not just read Ezekiel 38-39, and look at who got lead away into the nations and who came came back in these latter days and latter years - and say that is Israel. What people rejected Jesus and during their time in the nations, so many of them fell by the sword.

 

[Biblewriter]

To believe in a general Jewish redemption is to directly contradict much Prophecy.

I have clearly and repeatedly pointed out that the general restoration of all of Israel (both of Ephraim and Judah) will take place ONLY after two-thirds of all of those in the land have been killed (Zechariah 13:8-9) AND after God has purged the rebels from the midst of those returning after Messiah returns. (Ezekiel 20:33-48) And MANY scriptures (such as Isaiah 4:3-4, Zechariah 12:10-14, and Romans 11:26-29) EXPLICITLY say that this restoration will involve ALL of them, including one (Ezekiel 36:1-10) which doubles the word "all" to stress that the meaning is ABSOLUTELY all of them.

 

[Biblewriter]

You've been continually invited to tell us what YOU imagine.

You continually refuse.

We're still waiting to see what YOU imagine about Galatians 3:16,28,29.

What's the problem?

I have repeatedly pointed out what the scriptures actually say will take place. You are totally unable to present even one scripture which even suggests that these promises made by an all powerful God who cannot lie will not actually be kept, because there is no such scripture. So you continually try to distract from this by pretending that the scriptures teach that these promises have to be understood "spiritually."

Your doctrine makes God out to be a liar, because He knew that the Jews would reject their Messiah before He made these promises. Psalm 22 and Isaiah 53 were written before MANY of these promises were made. And, contrary to your opinion, at least one of these promises was made AFTER the Jews rejected their Messiah.

I have presented hard proof that the scriptures indeed say exactly what I have said. And I am not going to play your games and run down endless rabbit trails.

 

[Douggg]

You've been continually invited to tell us what YOU imagine.

You continually refuse.

We're still waiting to see what YOU imagine about Galatians 3:16,28,29.

What's the problem?

jgr, you are attempting to make a theological position argument on who is Israel - but the prophecies in Ezekiel 38-39 identify who is Israel by events, in the latter days, latter years.

Ezekiel 38-39 is going to happen. Gog/Magog has not happened yet, proven so by there not being any mass grave site in the land of Israel of Gog's army.

 

[keras]

I have clearly and repeatedly pointed out that the general restoration of all of Israel (both of Ephraim and Judah) will take place ONLY after two-thirds of all of those in the land have been killed (Zechariah 13:8-9) AND after God has purged the rebels from the midst of those returning after Messiah returns. (Ezekiel 20:33-48) And MANY scriptures (such as Isaiah 4:3-4, Zechariah 12:10-14, and Romans 11:26-29) EXPLICITLY say that this restoration will involve ALL of them, including one (Ezekiel 36:1-10) which doubles the word "all" to stress that the meaning is ABSOLUTELY all of them.

Yes; All the survivors. Of which there will only be a small remnant.
As Zechariah 13:9 tells us: the third who do survive being struck down, will pass through fire and be refined.
Meaning that not all of that 1/3rd will finally say: The Lord is my God.
Proved by Isaiah 6:11-13, Romans 9:27, Isaiah 29:1-4, +

That remnant will join with their brethren; all the Christian peoples, who will be mainly people descended from the ten Northern tribes. Jeremiah 50:4-5
it is a shocking mistake to believe that all the citizens of the Jewish State of Israel, who consist of a mixed race peoples and who reject Jesus, will be saved and redeemed.
God will protect and save only those who have accepted Jesus now, the rest of the world may be dead before or at the time of His Return. Only the faithful believers will go with Him into the Millennium.

 

[keras]

jgr, you are attempting to make a theological position argument on who is Israel - but the prophecies in Ezekiel 38-39 identify who is Israel by events, in the latter days, latter years.

Ezekiel 38-39 is going to happen. Gog/Magog has not happened yet, proven so by there not being any mass grave site in the land of Israel of Gog's army.

The attack upon the people living in the holy Land, a people without physical defenses, is yet to happen as you say.

Obviously those people are not the people who are there now. Many prophesies tell us who they will be; the faithful Christian people, from every tribe [of Israel] every race, nation and language.
They will rely on the Lord for His protection and He will deliver it. Gog and his horde will be completely wiped out and be buried in Wadi Mujib, in the present state of Jordan, by the Dead Sea.

 

[jgr]

I have repeatedly pointed out what the scriptures actually say will take place. You are totally unable to present even one scripture which even suggests that these promises made by an all powerful God who cannot lie will not actually be kept, because there is no such scripture. So you continually try to distract from this by pretending that the scriptures teach that these promises have to be understood "spiritually."

Your doctrine makes God out to be a liar, because He knew that the Jews would reject their Messiah before He made these promises. Psalm 22 and Isaiah 53 were written before MANY of these promises were made. And, contrary to your opinion, at least one of these promises was made AFTER the Jews rejected their Messiah.

I have presented hard proof that the scriptures indeed say exactly what I have said. And I am not going to play your games and run down endless rabbit trails.

If you've pointed out what Galatians 3:16,28,29 say will take place, I must have missed it.

Where can I find it?

 

[Biblewriter]

If you've pointed out what Galatians 3:16,28,29 say will take place, I must have missed it.

Where can I find it?

Those passages say absolutely nothing about what will happen to those people in the last days.

But they also, and very definitely, do not even HINT at the notion that God will not actually keep the promises made to the ancient nation of Israel, to the two ancient sub-nations of Ephraim and Judah, to each of the twelve tribes of Israel by name, to the physical land of Israel, to the city of Jerusalem, as well as to the descendants of Phineas, David, Zadok, and the ancient Levites. ALL of these promises were explicitly made to specific people groups.

So your argument about "the church" being "Israel" is nothing but a cavil, a meaningless argument that completely misses the CENTRAL THRUST of what God REPEATEDLY and EXPLICITLY said, in PLAIN, CLEAR,words,

 

[Douggg]

Obviously those people are not the people who are there now.

Why not?

They fit the description in v23-25.

23 And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.

24 According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid my face from them.

25 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;

 

[jgr]

Those passages say absolutely nothing about what will happen to those people in the last days.

So tell us what you think those passages do say.

 

[Biblewriter]

So tell us what you think those passages do say.

As I said, I am not going to play your diversionary game. I have demonstrated that your argument is nothing but a cavil, for even if you were correct about the name Israel (which is not the case) there is not even one scripture that you can even pretend indicates that "the church" is represented by ANY of the other people places, or groups to which explicitly stated promises were made

 

[jgr]

As I said, I am not going to play your diversionary game. I have demonstrated that your argument is nothing but a cavil, for even if you were correct about the name Israel (which is not the case) there is not even one scripture that you can even pretend indicates that "the church" is represented by ANY of the other people places, or groups to which explicitly stated promises were made

Let me help.

They say that Abraham's seed is Christ, and those who are in Christ.
They say that in Christ, there is no Jew.

Does that comport with the explicitly stated promises?

 

[Douggg]

Let me help.

They say that Abraham's seed is Christ, and those who are in Christ.
They say that in Christ, there is no Jew.

Does that comport with the explicitly stated promises?

...nor gentile.

The Jews, Israel, have yet to embrace the gospel of salvation, nor Jesus as being the Lord their God come in the flesh.

 

[Clare73]

Jesus Christ is the ultimate fulfillment of Israel found in Matthew 1:1
The promise was made to the one seed, instead of the many seeds, in Galatians 3:16
Christians are "Abraham's seed" in inheritors of the promise, based on Galatians 3:27-29
The land belongs to "the son" in Matthew chapter 21. It does not belong to those who reject Him as the "chief cornerstone"
When the Lord of the vineyard came and destroyed them, The kingdom was taken from the nation which rejected the "chief cornerstone" and given to the "holy nation" which accepts the "chief cornerstone" 1 Peter 2:4-10, Matthew 21:40-45

Based on the above, who are those really teaching "Replacement Theology"?

You are correct. It is an easy decision.

Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, the modern “Two Peoples of God” doctrine falls apart.

Not to mention the promises of return to the land were fulfilled in the return from exile in the 6th century, BC, where the Temple was rebuilt, the walls were rebuilt and rededicated, the people confessed their sins and rededicated themselves to God with great sacrifices and such joy and celebration that it could be heard afar off (Nehemiah 12:43).
And idolatry was never again found in Israel.

The promises of return to the land have been fulfilled.

 

[keras]

Why not?

They fit the description in v23-25.

23 And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.

24 According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid my face from them.

25 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;

Verses 23 and 24 refer to the ancient House of Israel.
Since then, they migrated to new lands and they have accepted the salvation offered by Jesus; even though they did not know Him.
THEY, that is: WE Christians are the Lords people, the Overcomers for Him, literally His Israelites by faith and by descent.

This anthropological truth is known, but God does not allow it to be generally understood, as He uses the Jews and works with the Christians in the world. Soon the great reset of our civilization will happen, then we will receive our inheritance. Colossians 1:12, Ephesians 1:10-14, Romans 9:24-26
Psalms 69:32-36 Take heart, you seekers after God – the Lord listens to the poor and humble. Let sky and earth praise Him, for God will deliver Zion. Those who serve Him and love His name will inherit it.