The Error of Lordship Salvation?

[Oompa Loompa]

What is a better motivator for living a holy life, gratitude for the free gift of salvation or fear of eternal punishment?

But people who continue to live in deliberate sin after confessing to be Christians show neither gratitude nor fear. What are your thoughts about what the Bible says about the fear of the Lord? Can one be saved and yet lack reverence and holy fear of the Almighty?

 

[Humble_Disciple]

Here is a link that actually explains what Lordship Salvation is. I think it would clear up some of the confusion on this thread.
What is lordship salvation? | GotQuestions.org

GotQuestions.org is one of my favorite resources. Here's what it has to say about Christians who don't believe in Lordship salvation:

Although Free Grace Theology and Lordship Salvation are terms that have developed only recently, they represent concerns that have been around since the beginning of the church. At the end of the day, there is no question about the basic salvation of those who hold either view. Both views are within the limits of orthodoxy. Still, this does not mean it’s an insignificant discussion. One’s beliefs in this matter can change his view of himself, God, and assurance of salvation a great deal.
What is free grace? What is Free Grace Theology? | GotQuestions.org

If you place your assurance of salvation on your own works, rather than God's promises, you will always have doubt.

 

[GraceInChrist]

But people who continue to live in deliberate sin after confessing to be Christians show neither gratitude nor fear. What are your thoughts about what the Bible says about the fear of the Lord? Can one be saved and yet lack reverence and holy fear of the Almighty?

Romans 7 has the answer. We are justs and sinners. I obey Christ not in my flesh which is dead in sins. But with my spirit, that awaits the promise of glorification.

 

[Humble_Disciple]

But people who continue to live in deliberate sin after confessing to be Christians show neither gratitude nor fear.

What position are you in to judge others' hearts?

Every Christian will bear spiritual fruit. Somewhere, sometime, somehow. Otherwise that person is not a believer. Every born-again individual will be fruitful. Not to be fruitful is to be faithless, without faith, and therefore without salvation.

Having said that, some caveats are in order.

1. This does not mean that a believer will always be fruitful. Certainly we can admit that if there can be hours and days when a believer can be unfruitful, then why may there not also be months and even years when he can be in that same condition? Paul exhorted believers to engage in good works so they would not be unfruitful (Titus 3:14). Peter also exhorted believers to add the qualities of Christian character to their faith lest they be unfruitful (2 Peter 1:8). Obviously, both of those passages indicate that a true believer might be unfruitful. And the simple fact that both Paul and Peter exhort believers to be fruitful shows that believers are not always fruitful.

2. This does not mean that a certain person’s fruit will necessarily be outwardly evident. Even if I know the person and have some regular contact with him, I still may not see his fruit. Indeed, I might even have legitimate grounds for wondering if he is a believer because I have not seen fruit. His fruit may be very private or erratic, but the fact that I do not see it does not mean it is not there.

3. My understanding of what fruit is and therefore what I expect others to bear may be faulty and/or incomplete. It is all too easy to have a mental list of spiritual fruits and to conclude if someone does not produce what is on my list that he or she is not a believer. But the reality is that most lists that we humans devise are too short, too selective, too prejudiced, and often extrabiblical. God likely has a much more accurate and longer list than most of us do. Nevertheless, every Christian will bear fruit; otherwise he or she is not a true believer. In speaking about the Judgment Seat of Christ, Paul says unequivocally that every believer will have praise come to him from God (1 Corinthians 4:5).

So Great Salvation, Charles Ryrie, Victor Books, 1989, pp. 45-46
Bearing Fruit | Bible.org

 

[Humble_Disciple]

Searching difficult Biblical passages on https://faithalone.org can be very helpful. Pretty much every passage used to justify good works as a condition of salvation really has to do with forfeiting eternal rewards. There is a difference.

What is the purpose of there being rewards in heaven? | GotQuestions.org

While we enter heaven as a free gift through faith, our level of reward is based on our level of discipleship. We should take the promise of rewards seriously, but it's not the same as salvation.

 

[Oompa Loompa]

In the original Greek, "repent" means to change one's mind. When we come to faith in Jesus Christ, we "repent" of our unbelief in Jesus as Savior and God. Repentance of sin can and should come later, but it's not a condition of receiving salvation.

But the passage you have quoted specifically says μετανοησατε (2nd person Aorist Active Imperative of μετανοέω). Although "change your mind" is one meaning, the word has a much broader semantic range. In context with the passage, it more accurately means to "feel remorse".

 

[Oompa Loompa]

If you place your assurance of salvation on your own works, rather than God's promises, you will always have doubt.

Lordship Salvation doesn't suggest placing your assurance of salvation on your own works. It is pointing out that not everyone who claims to be saved is actually saved. What are your thoughts about the souls of Christian apostates?

 

[Oompa Loompa]

What position are you in to judge others' hearts?

Are you suggesting one who deliberately disobeys and disregards the instructions of the one they call "Lord" is doing so out of fear? Or are they ignoring scripture out of gratitude? Both?

 

[Humble_Disciple]

But the passage you have quoted specifically says μετανοησατε (2nd person Aorist Active Imperative of μετανοέω). Although "change your mind" is one meaning, the word has a much broader semantic range. In context with the passage, it more accurately means to "feel remorse".

When Pilate asked, “Shall I crucify your King?” they answered, “We have no king but Caesar.” These men were troubled—the King for whom they had been waiting had come; He had been rejected...

And so Peter says, “Repent, change your attitude.” They showed what their attitude was when Christ was presented to them and they spurned Him. Now he says, “Change your attitude.” Instead of spurning Him, instead of rejecting Him—receive Him! It is true He has gone away from earth, that He is not here to establish His Kingdom, but He still lives and is exalted at God’s right hand. Repent. Right about-face! Instead of going on as a part of the nation that rejected Him, change your mind, and separate from the apostate group by taking your stand for Christ.
Repent and Be Baptized (Acts 2:38) – Grace Evangelical Society

You don't need to over-complicate the Gospel. While salvation is a free gift of faith, our level of reward is based on our level of discipleship. It's the difference between justification and sanctification.

What is the purpose of there being rewards in heaven? | GotQuestions.org

 

[Humble_Disciple]

Lordship Salvation doesn't suggest placing your assurance of salvation on your own works.

Yes, it does. Lordship salvation teaches that those who don't persevere in good works weren't really saved in the first place. Otherwise, there would be no controversy surrounding it.

If Lordship salvation is true, a majority of the world's Christians are going to hell, and the unbelieving world has little hope of becoming saved.

While salvation is a free gift of faith, our level of reward is based on our level of discipleship. There is a difference.

What is the purpose of there being rewards in heaven? | GotQuestions.org

 

[Humble_Disciple]

Are you suggesting one who deliberately disobeys and disregards the instructions of the one they call "Lord" is doing so out of fear? Or are they ignoring scripture out of gratitude? Both?

You seem to be needlessly over-complicating things.

Ephesians 2
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Even if he [the Christian] wants to, he cannot lose his salvation, however much he sin, unless he will not believe. For no sin can condemn him save unbelief alone. All other sins—so long as the faith in God’s promise made in baptism returns or remains—all other sins, I say, are immediately blotted out through that same faith, or rather through the truth of God, because He cannot deny Himself. - Martin Luther

You are not in a position to judge the salvation of others.

 

[Oompa Loompa]

You seem to be needlessly over-complicating things.





You are not in a position to judge the salvation of others.

I am not judging anyone. Only stating the fact that not everyone who claims to be saved is actually saved. The "wheat and the tares" thing. If someone claims Jesus to be their "savior" and yet refuses to regard Him as Lord, are they really worshiping Jesus or a god of their own creation?

 

[Humble_Disciple]

If someone claims Jesus to be their "savior" and yet refuses to regard Him as Lord, are they really worshiping Jesus or a god of their own creation?

You have not quoted any scriptures whatsoever which show that good works or obedience to the law are required for salvation. You can interpret them that way, but they don't mean what you think they do.

Take almost any passage of scripture and search it on https://faithalone.org, and you will find that, properly interpreted, it doesn't contradict the Reformation doctrine of grace alone through faith alone.

While salvation is absolutely free, our level of reward is based on our level of discipleship. There is a difference.

What is the purpose of there being rewards in heaven? | GotQuestions.org

 

[Humble_Disciple]

I cannot stress this enough. If Lordship salvation is true, then a majority of the world's Christians are doomed to hell, and the unbelieving world has little hope of being saved.

 

[Humble_Disciple]

Though Lordship salvation teachers may be well-intentioned, they are turning away sinners from Christ while causing doubt in the salvation of their flock. Love and gratitude are better motivators for holy living than fear of punishment.

I know this because free grace teachers are often the most kind, caring, and clean-living Christians you could possibly meet. Zane Hodges, for example, was celibate his entire life and frequently ministered to Hispanic immigrants, regardless of their legal status.

Rather than fearing hell, Hodges wanted greater reward in heaven, and that can be your motivation for holy living too.

Behind Lordship Salvation is the stated intention of trying to produce committed Christians...

However, in spite of these good intentions, I am not swayed by the Lordship message...

One problem with this approach is that it asks of an unregenerate sinner a very “Christian” decision. Not having experienced God’s grace, how can we expect an unsaved person to respond in gratitude, submission, surrender, and commitment? We must preach commitment, but only on the basis of the grace that brings salvation. In Rom 12:1 Paul appeals to Christians to surrender their lives on the basis of God’s merciful dealings with them in salvation.

Another problem with the commitment gospel is that it detracts from the only proper object of faith, the Lord Jesus Christ and His work on the Cross. Instead of looking to Him to fulfill His promises, those who are taught that commitment is needed will likely look to the amount of their commitment for assurance of salvation. They will live in doubt about whether they have committed themselves enough.

Though they have good intentions, Lordship Salvation teachers have oversimplified the problem of worldly Christians. Some who profess to be Christians have never been saved because the true Gospel was never made clear to them and thus they have never believed it. Others who truly are believers nonetheless struggle with tenacious sins and powerful worldly temptations. Still others while truly saved have yet “to grow in the grace and knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ” (2 Pet 3:18) through their study of the Scriptures.

The best way to help worldly Christians is to clearly preach and teach the Gospel (not to add tougher requirements) and to lead them into a life of committed discipleship. When people understand and accept God’s grace in the Gospel, they not only obtain salvation, but they also gain the motivation and power to live up to their new position (Titus 2:12; 2 Pet 1:3).

This is the strategy Paul used with the Galatians. He did not question their salvation or make it more difficult to assume the title Christian. He simply clarified the doctrine of salvation by grace through faith (Gal 2:16-3:26).
Lordship Salvation’s Good Intentions Are Not Enough – Grace Evangelical Society

 

[GraceInChrist]

I am not judging anyone. Only stating the fact that not everyone who claims to be saved is actually saved. The "wheat and the tares" thing. If someone claims Jesus to be their "savior" and yet refuses to regard Him as Lord, are they really worshiping Jesus or a god of their own creation?

We are sanctified do to the miracle of receiving the Holy Ghost. Do you merit his holy spirit, or was it given to you as gift? In baptism we put to death our flesh, and we are born again in the spirit. This is why Paul call us to live as we are dead in this body. Not using the infinite grace given to us, to go back from what God had save us from, but to live with the hopes one day our bodies will also be given life as he did with our spirit. We believe in Christ becuase we know he is good, and we know the commandments are holy. We also know with our bodies it is impossible to be the person we wish to be. This is the dilemma Paul has in Romans 7.

 

[Oompa Loompa]

You have not quoted any scriptures whatsoever which show that good works or obedience to the law are required for salvation.

I am not making that claim so I don't see any reason to quote any scriptures that show it.

 

[Oompa Loompa]

We are sanctified do to the miracle of receiving the Holy Ghost. Do you merit his holy spirit, or was it given to you as gift? In baptism we put to death our flesh, and we are born again in the spirit. This is why Paul call us to live as we are dead in this body. Not using the infinite grace given to us, to go back from what God had save us from, but to live with the hopes one day our bodies will also be given life as he did with our spirit. We believe in Christ becuase we know he is good, and we know the commandments are holy. We also know with our bodies it is impossible to be the person we wish to be. This is the dilemma Paul has in Romans 7.

And if one chooses not to "put to death their flesh," is it possible for them to be "born again"?

 

[GraceInChrist]

And if one chooses not to "put to death their flesh," is it possible for them to be "born again"?

you put to death your flesh, not by the works of the law. But through baptism in his finish work. It is a gift so no man should boast.

 

[Clare73]

This is Jesus' warning for Lordship salvation teachers today:
Please note that they call Jesus "Lord," and attempt to justify themselves by their works, and Jesus' answer is "I never knew you. Depart from me." What is the work of God that profits unto salvation?
Good works should be the fruit, rather than the condition, of our salvation.

Who has said otherwise?

And by extension, no fruit means there is really no salvation there, and never was.