The Error of Lordship Salvation?

[GraceInChrist]

I agree with you, but for some reason you don't agree with me, lol. I'm not saying love is a saving act of obedience, but a consequent act of obedience. Is that how you see it? Keep in mind, all fruits of the Spirit are acts of obedience. It's absurd to think a fruit of the Spirit would be an act of disobedience.

Perhaps you assume one doesn't have to try to be loving, gentle, kind, patient, and practice self-control? It just happens without effort? Is that what you mean?

It is the Holy Ghost making us feel those things. It is the fruit of our sanctification. Also chastisement is a topic you need to take in mind. When we live in Adam, the holy ghost chastises us with the love a father would when their kids misbehave.
Nevertheless in order to be justified, we only need simple faith. Receive his righteousness, not ours, as unmerited favor. It is free to anyone who believes the gospel.

 

[Clare73]

I've already shown you that "obedience" is not what you think it means:

Where?

Or is it not what you think it means?

This is what I think it means:

". . .be holy in all you do; for it is written: 'Be holy, because I am holy--Leviticus 11:44-45.' "
(1 Peter 1:15-16)

". . .called to be holy" (1 Corinthians 1:2)

. . .slaves to sin which leads to death. . .slaves to obedience which leads to righteousness."
(Romans 6:16)

"Just as you used to offer parts of your body in slavery to impurity, so now
offer your body in slavery to righteousness leading to holiness." (Romans 6:19)

Now that you have. . .become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness. (Romans 6:22)

". . .let us purify ourselves from everthing that contaminates body and spirit,
perfecting (completing) holiness out of reverence for God. (2 Corinthians 7:1)

"Live as children of light (for the fruit of the light consists in all goodness, righteousness and truth)"
(Ephesians 5:9)

". . .pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, endurance and gentleness." (1 Timothy 6:11)

". . .pursue righteusness, faith, love and peace. . ." (2 Timothy 2:22)

". . .all Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for. . .training in righteousness." (2 Timothy 3:16)

"God disciplines us for our good that we may share in his holiness. . . discipline produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it." (Hebrews 12:10-11)

"die to sin and live for righteousness" (1 Peter 2:24)

"everyone who does what is right has been born of him." (1 John 2:29)

"he who does what is right is righteous. . .he does what is sinful is of the devil," (1 John 3:7)

"Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means!" (Romans 6:1)

"Do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desire." (Romans 6:12)

"Do not offer the parts of your body to sin. . .Offer them to God as instruments of righteousness." (Romans 6:13)

"Without holiness, no one will see the Lord." (Hebrews 12:14)

While we cannot earn our salvation, we will receive greater rewards in the afterlife if we persevere in good works. Numerous passages of scripture suggest this:
What Does the Bible Say About Rewards In Heaven?

 

[d taylor]

I get the point your making. And, if faith were simply a matter of propositional belief, then I would agree.

It would be like Jesus saying to Matthew, "Follow me," and Matthew replies, "I believe in you Jesus, but I can't follow you." Is that faith or mere belief? I say the latter.

The demons "believe." In other words, they know the propositional truth, but it makes no difference in how they live. I believe Billie Holiday is the greatest jazz singer of all time, but it doesn't change me. It's a mere belief. Faith is not like that. Faith and obedience (however faulty) go hand in hand.

Billie Holiday is not offering Eternal Life, Matthew believed to receive Eternal Life, He followed to be a apostle/disciple, but actually God choose Mathew as an apostle.

Eternal Life was never offer to demons only to humanity.

 

[GraceInChrist]

Sure, I do. To be honest, I have to work at being the lovable poster you have before you today. (kidding) Do I work at my salvation in order to earn it? No. But I know from experience that without effort on my part I will not grow much at all. Sanctification takes effort, all guided by the Spirit, of course. I don't see a different picture in the scriptures, either. Exhortation is a call to put forth effort.

Be sanctified and grow in the lord. Nevertheless, remember you were justified way before growing in the Holy Ghost. Just as you were, God save you by his grace and great love.

 

[Clare73]

No, his obedience did not justified him. It was his faith in the promise.

That's what I said.

Even if he was 100 years old, he never stop trusting he will have a child with Sarah.

 

[GraceInChrist]

That's what I said.

You said he was justified because he walked a lot.

That is a work if you ask me.

I mean, if you wish to be justified by work through faith. I hope you make it. Who knows how many works you need to merit the finish work of the cross. I would say, I dont think that is possible.

 

[Clare73]

You said he was justified because he walked a lot.

You might want to review that again. . .

 

[Humble_Disciple]

I started this thread to help people who might have doubts about their salvation. Serve God out of love and gratitude, rather than fear of punishment.

 

[GraceInChrist]

I started this thread to help people who might have doubts about their salvation. Serve God out of love and gratitude, rather than fear of punishment.

Galatians 4:27
“For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.”

It is normal people will not listen, it was written most wont. Dont be discouraged.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

I was on a cannibal island, and a SHIP appeared with the letters LORD was painted across it, I guess it SAVED me. However, what's this gotta do with Jesus?

 

[Humble_Disciple]

This is Jesus' warning for Lordship salvation teachers today:

Matthew 7
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Please note that they call Jesus "Lord," and attempt to justify themselves by their works, and Jesus' answer is "I never knew you. Depart from me." What is the work of God that profits unto salvation?

John 6:29
Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."

Good works should be the fruit, rather than the condition, of our salvation.

 

[GraceInChrist]

Where?

Or is it not what you think it means?

This is what I think it means:

". . .be holy in all you do; for it is written: 'Be holy, because I am holy--Leviticus 11:44-45.' "
(1 Peter 1:15-16)

". . .called to be holy" (1 Corinthians 1:2)

. . .slaves to sin which leads to death. . .slaves to obedience which leads to righteousness."
(Romans 6:16)

"Just as you used to offer parts of your body in slavery to impurity, so now
offer your body in slavery to righteousness leading to holiness." (Romans 6:19)

Now that you have. . .become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness. (Romans 6:22)

". . .let us purify ourselves from everthing that contaminates body and spirit,
perfecting (completing) holiness out of reverence for God. (2 Corinthians 7:1)

"Live as children of light (for the fruit of the light consists in all goodness, righteousness and truth)"
(Ephesians 5:9)

". . .pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, endurance and gentleness." (1 Timothy 6:11)

". . .pursue righteusness, faith, love and peace. . ." (2 Timothy 2:22)

". . .all Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for. . .training in righteousness." (2 Timothy 3:16)

"God disciplines us for our good that we may share in his holiness. . . discipline produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it." (Hebrews 12:10-11)

"die to sin and live for righteousness" (1 Peter 2:24)

"everyone who does what is right has been born of him." (1 John 2:29)

"he who does what is right is righteous. . .he does what is sinful is of the devil," (1 John 3:7)

"Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means!" (Romans 6:1)

"Do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desire." (Romans 6:12)

"Do not offer the parts of your body to sin. . .Offer them to God as instruments of righteousness." (Romans 6:13)

"Without holiness, no one will see the Lord." (Hebrews 12:14)

Titus 3:5

King James Version

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Romans 10:3-4

King James Version

3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Romans 4:3-6

King James Version

3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

Acts 16:30-33

King James Version

30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.

33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.

Ephesians 2:8-9

King James Version

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

1 Peter 3:21

King James Version

21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Romans 3:21-26

King James Version

21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

John 6:39-40

King James Version

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 11:25
“Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:”

John 4:10-14

King James Version

10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.

11 The woman saith unto him, Sir, thou hast nothing to draw with, and the well is deep: from whence then hast thou that living water?

12 Art thou greater than our father Jacob, which gave us the well, and drank thereof himself, and his children, and his cattle?

13 Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again:

14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

Matthew 26:26
“And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.”

John 6:51
“I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

Acts 2:38 - Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

1 Corinthian 12:13 - For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Galatians 3:27 - For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Ephesians 1:13

King James Version

13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Mark 16:16

King James Version

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Galatians 5:4

King James Version

4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Galatians 3:24

King James Version

24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Romans 7:22-23

King James Version

22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

 

[Humble_Disciple]

The free grace of the Gospel goes against human reasoning. How could faith, apart from works, save us? It seems too simple, too good to be true. Paul had something to say about this:

1 Corinthians 1:18
For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

It might seem foolish that looking at a brass snake alone saved the Israelites from dying of snake venom, but that's the provision God provided:

John 3:14-15
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have eternal life.

 

[Oompa Loompa]

Galatians 5: 19-26 "The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other. "

 

[Oompa Loompa]

The biggest question is. If we indeed obey him with our flesh. He died in vain.

Lordship salvation requires the denial of the flesh and to walk in the Spirit. Establishing Jesus as Lord in your life is a prerequisite to following Christ. You know...the "deny yourself and take up your cross" thing?

 

[GraceInChrist]

Lordship salvation requires the denial of the flesh and to walk in the Spirit. Establishing Jesus as Lord in your life is a prerequisite to following Christ. You know...the "deny yourself and take up your cross" thing?

No, lordship salvation means you follow works of the law to be save. If you follow this type of doctrine you have fallen from grace.

 

[Humble_Disciple]

Galatians 5: 19-26 "The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other. "

This article has suggested that inheriting the kingdom in Gal 5:21 (and in the parallels in 1 Corinthians 6 and Ephesians 5) refers to obtaining eternal rewards. Particularly, the Lord’s approval and ruling with Him were found to be in view...

Christians can’t lose their salvation. However, they can lose their reward. The ultimate inheritance is the kingdom itself. Oh, that we might be numbered among those who are found worthy to inherit it! That is a legacy worth living—and even dying—for.
Christians Who Lose Their Legacy – Galatians 5:21 – Grace Evangelical Society

Numerous passages of scripture interpreted as losing one's salvation refer instead to losing one's rewards. Christians who live in sin might still be saved, but lesser will be their reward in the Kingdom of God.

 

[Oompa Loompa]

No, lordship salvation means you follow works of the law to be save. If you follow this type of doctrine you have fallen from grace.

What do you mean by "fallen from grace"?

 

[Oompa Loompa]

Numerous passages of scripture interpreted as losing one's salvation refer instead to losing one's rewards. Christians who live in sin might still be saved, but lesser will be their reward in the Kingdom of God.

I never suggested that you can loose your salvation. But the scripture suggests that those who walk in the flesh were never truly saved to begin with.

 

[GraceInChrist]

What do you mean by "fallen from grace"?

Grace means unmerited. We are save by grace through faith, not by works though faith. Salvation is free to anyone who believes the gospel. After being justified we are sealed in the holy ghost, in which we begin to be sanctified.