Is it ever moral to own another person as property?

Is it ever moral to own another person as property?


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Ignatius the Kiwi

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'cause owning people is disgusting, and immoral, or do you disagree?

Well that's the point in question. Is it always immoral? In all cases? Without exceptions? I am not convinced and you haven't offered an argument against what I'm saying.
I
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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Sounds like "ends justifies the means".
Well no. I would question the whole notion of freedom itself and whether it is this ultimate thing to strive for. When it comes to human relationships and duties it seems to me complete freedom would inhibit those relations.
 
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Tinker Grey

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Well no. I would question the whole notion of freedom itself and whether it is this ultimate thing to strive for. When it comes to human relationships and duties it seems to me complete freedom would inhibit those relations.
What is with the religious obsession with "ultimate"? Freedom is among the things humans strive for. It need not be all or nothing. I might be willing to be give something up for a relationship. But a relationship that requires me to give up everything is no relationship at all. It's slavery. And, it's bad.
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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What is with the religious obsession with "ultimate"? Freedom is among the things humans strive for. It need not be all or nothing. I might be willing to be give something up for a relationship. But a relationship that requires me to give up everything is no relationship at all. It's slavery. And, it's bad.

Who has the obsession with Freedom here? I've given a scenario where I don't see anything morally wrong with the slave / master relationship. Simply saying slavery is bad, doesn't really constitute an argument for it being bad inherently, in all cases and all times, does it?

At that point you're just regurgitating what your culture has told you.
 
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Tinker Grey

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Who has the obsession with Freedom here? I've given a scenario where I don't see anything morally wrong with the slave / master relationship. Simply saying slavery is bad, doesn't really constitute an argument for it being bad inherently, in all cases and all times, does it?

At that point you're just regurgitating what your culture has told you.
Why do you think I have an obsession with freedom? I'm not the one throwing out "ultimate". I said specifically I might be willing to give something up for a relationship. That doesn't sound like an obsession with freedom. It is those of faith that insist on all or nothing. It's all freedom (can't have relationship) or nothing (slavery!).

Of course, I am a product of my culture. We all are. I think morality is subjective. I think the reason I think slavery is bad is because of the history that made me me. Would I think slavery was bad if I were a either a plebeian or a senator in ancient Rome. Probably not. As a plebe, I might not like it, but I probably wouldn't think it immoral.

As a modern human, I'm part of a culture that has analyzed the effects of slavery both on the slave and slave owner. This culture finds slavery abhorrent. I'd like to think that were I alive 200 years ago I'd find slavery abhorrent. Chances are, I'd be ok with it.

Morality is inherently flexible. Different times and places give rise to different moralities. Here and now, I find slavery abhorrent. I can't imagine, given what we know now, a situation that would make slavery acceptable. While I can imagine that there are times and places where people did find it so, I cannot imagine regressing to that thinking. I am a product of my time. I find slavery abhorrent and immoral.

Interestingly, while I recognize my morality as subjective, you do not recognize yours as being subjective.
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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Why do you think I have an obsession with freedom? I'm not the one throwing out "ultimate". I said specifically I might be willing to give something up for a relationship. That doesn't sound like an obsession with freedom. It is those of faith that insist on all or nothing. It's all freedom (can't have relationship) or nothing (slavery!).

Of course, I am a product of my culture. We all are. I think morality is subjective. I think the reason I think slavery is bad is because of the history that made me me. Would I think slavery was bad if I were a either a plebeian or a senator in ancient Rome. Probably not. As a plebe, I might not like it, but I probably wouldn't think it immoral.

As a modern human, I'm part of a culture that has analyzed the effects of slavery both on the slave and slave owner. This culture finds slavery abhorrent. I'd like to think that were I alive 200 years ago I'd find slavery abhorrent. Chances are, I'd be ok with it.

Morality is inherently flexible. Different times and places give rise to different moralities. Here and now, I find slavery abhorrent. I can't imagine, given what we know now, a situation that would make slavery acceptable. While I can imagine that there are times and places where people did find it so, I cannot imagine regressing to that thinking. I am a product of my time. I find slavery abhorrent and immoral.

Interestingly, while I recognize my morality as subjective, you do not recognize yours as being subjective.

Since morality is subject there isn't really anything wrong with my position then eh?

Your being unable to imagine to imagine a situation where slavery is morally acceptable is not my concern. You haven't even attempted to explain via your subjective morality why the scenario I gave is wrong in the first place. You've just declared it so.

IF you don't have an obsession with freedom, what's the problem?
 
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Tinker Grey

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Since morality is subject there isn't really anything wrong with my position then eh?

Your being unable to imagine to imagine a situation where slavery is morally acceptable is not my concern. You haven't even attempted to explain via your subjective morality why the scenario I gave is wrong in the first place. You've just declared it so.

IF you don't have an obsession with freedom, what's the problem?
The problem is that here and now there is no justification for slavery. It's pretty simple.
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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The problem is that here and now there is no justification for slavery. It's pretty simple.
I gave the scenario in my first response to the thread. If we can posit a hypothetical scenario where the slave desired to remain a slave and was satisfied with his servitude to a master, why isn't that subjectively sufficient? Or would you enforce your own subjective will on the slave to break him away from the master?

The only way to say this sort of situation is unacceptable is to deny the premise and I don' think you can. Given the variety of human nature and how a majority of people prefer security/safety, it's entirely plausible.

No one's really addressed this sort of scenario. It's been a gut level reaction and nothing more. One response I anticipated but have not heard is that it's better to be free and at liberty, rather than in slavery and bondage. No one's even made that argument yet.
 
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durangodawood

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I gave the scenario in my first response to the thread. If we can posit a hypothetical scenario where the slave desired to remain a slave and was satisfied with his servitude to a master, why isn't that subjectively sufficient? Or would you enforce your own subjective will on the slave to break him away from the master?

The only way to say this sort of situation is unacceptable is to deny the premise and I don' think you can. Given the variety of human nature and how a majority of people prefer security/safety, it's entirely plausible.

No one's really addressed this sort of scenario. It's been a gut level reaction and nothing more. One response I anticipated but have not heard is that it's better to be free and at liberty, rather than in slavery and bondage. No one's even made that argument yet.
The scenario you propose, is that involuntary chattel slavery? Because that is what the OP is asking about. "Owning another person as property".. The topic isn't about some arrangement of voluntary servitude.
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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The scenario you propose, is that involuntary chattel slavery? Because that is what the OP is asking about. "Owning another person as property".. The topic isn't about some arrangement of voluntary servitude.

My thoughts are towards multiple forms of slavery. Not just the American edition of it. Ancient slavery for one thing in which the person was definitely the property of their master. Even under Christianity slaves were still property, although they could not be regarded as non-human or unworthy of some basic considerations.
 
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durangodawood

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My thoughts are towards multiple forms of slavery. Not just the American edition of it. Ancient slavery for one thing in which the person was definitely the property of their master. Even under Christianity slaves were still property, although they could not be regarded as non-human or unworthy of some basic considerations.
So do you think involuntary chattel slavery is okay today in certain circumstances?
 
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Hans Blaster

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Well that's the point in question. Is it always immoral? In all cases? Without exceptions? I am not convinced and you haven't offered an argument against what I'm saying.
I

Argument for the immorality of owning people. Should that be obvious?

Surrender to me Ignatius. I declare that you are my slave now. You should fetch a good price to work in the diamond mines. They can always use some disposable labor.
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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So you think involuntary chattel slavery is okay today in certain circumstances?
Given what I know of it, no. Yet, I'm not duty bound to defend all forms of slavery or servitude. For instance, Islamic sex slavery is abhorrent. As were the conditions of captured slaves in the Islamic world and even some parts of the Christian world. I wouldn't really want men to be subject to the conditions captured prisoners of war were when the Knights of Malta caught them.
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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Argument for the immorality of owning people. Should that be obvious?

Surrender to me Ignatius. I declare that you are my slave now. You should fetch a good price to work in the diamond mines. They can always use some disposable labor.

Is this arrangement going to benefit me or just you? Why should I be for it then? You aren't considering that in the example I give the slave is willing and wants to stay with his or her master. Why in that scenario should the slave be liberated? No one has answered this.
 
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durangodawood

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Given what I know of it, no. Yet, I'm not duty bound to defend all forms of slavery or servitude. For instance, Islamic sex slavery is abhorrent. As were the conditions of captured slaves in the Islamic world and even some parts of the Christian world. I wouldn't really want men to be subject to the conditions captured prisoners of war were when the Knights of Malta caught them.
You're not duty-bound to defend anything. But participation in the thread should come with a minimal effort to answer the op question on its own terms. It was like pulling teeth to get you there.

For me, I don't think morality is transferable across all time and space. But the question: "should they have known better?" is a reasonable one. USA slavery failed this moral test in my opinion. Biblical slavery tho? I'm not acquainted enough with the mindset of the times to say.
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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You're not duty-bound to defend anything. But participation in the thread should come with a minimal effort to answer the op question on its own terms. It was like pulling teeth to get you there.

For me, I don't think morality is transferable across all time and space. But the question: "should they have known better?" is a reasonable one. USA slavery failed this moral test in my opinion. Biblical slavery tho? I'm not acquainted enough with the mindset of the times to say.

I did answer the OP on his own terms. Simply because you don't like the answer or want the world to centre around the American experience doesn't make what I said any less valid. You're the one who wants it to be a hyper specific context. The question the OP asked is incredibly open.

How for instance was my argument, in my first response, wrong?
 
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durangodawood

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I did answer the OP on his own terms. Simply because you don't like the answer or want the world to centre around the American experience doesn't make what I said any less valid. You're the one who wants it to be a hyper specific context. The question the OP asked is incredibly open.

How for instance was my argument, in my first response, wrong?
The arrangement you outline in that post, is it voluntary? Can the slave terminate it?
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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The arrangement you outline in that post, is it voluntary? Can the slave terminate it?
Probably not, if it's slavery. Yet in my scenario the slave doesn't seek to terminate the arrangement, but wants it to continue. So in your scenario you've presented a reason for why slavery in that case is not desirable, because there is no way out. You could then posit that slavery in that instance is wrong.

But that doesn't address my own scenario of the willing slave. The slave who gets some benefit from the arrangement, whatever that benefit is. So the challenge is this, in that circumstance, of the willing slave, is it immoral? I haven't really seen anyone here make the argument for why it is. They simply state that slavery is wrong.
 
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