Days Of Noah

[jeffweedaman]

So why does the end of the book still only list 12 tribes?

Do you doubt that all tribes ,nations, languages and people will have their part in the NJ?

 

[Hammster]

I explained why in post 155.
Did every eye see him in AD 70?

Every eye = every tribe, nation, language and people of the whole earth.

There’s nothing in that text that implied that every eye means every person on earth. But it is interesting that even those who pierced Him would see Him. I wonder who that would be.

 

[jeffweedaman]

There’s nothing in that text that implied that every eye means every person on earth.

Nobody is going to miss his coming.

[ Quote , But it is interesting that even those who pierced Him would see Him. I wonder who that would be.]

Who do you think they are?

 

[DavidPT]

There’s nothing in that text that implied that every eye means every person on earth. But it is interesting that even those who pierced Him would see Him. I wonder who that would be.

Since it appears you are referring to Revelation 1:7, have you looked at that verse while also considering the verse that follows?

Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Notice what verse 8 says---which is, and which was, and which is to come


Obviously, he cometh with clouds, has to be referring to this---which is---or this---and which was---or this---and which is to come



Maybe it's just me, but I see it referring to this---and which is to come. We know that is meaning future, the fact
'which is' is meaning present, and 'which was' is meaning past. That only accounts for past and present. Therefore, 'and which is to come', this accounts for future.

This phrase basically means this---which is--IOW, is alive once again---and which was--IOW, was here for awhile, then was dead for awhile, then left for awhile after coming back from the dead---and which is to come---IOW, shall come again, meaning once the time involving the ascension has expired.

Revelation 1:7 is a prophecy. Prophecies predict future events not past events. When John received the visions, it was post Jesus' death, resurrection and ascension back into heaven. Therefore, the fact Revelation 1:7 correlates with Matthew 24:30, where both involve the tribes of the earth seeing Him, both involve that via a coming of Him, one is left to conclude that, since the coming in Revelation 1:7 is a future event, so is the coming in Matthew 24:30.

Unless someone wants to argue something preposterous, such as, prophecies don't predict future events but predict past events instead, Revelation 1:7 therefore proves the coming meant is a future coming not a past coming. Keeping in mind what I already said here---When John received the visions, it was post Jesus' death, resurrection and ascension back into heaven. Therefore, since prophecies predict future events, what is recorded in Revelation 1:7 has to be an event that can't happen until the ascension is finished first. Yet, some will argue it was a future event since Revelation was written prior to 70 AD, and that Revelation 1:7 is meaning 70 AD. Maybe so, but that still doesn't solve this in verse 8---and which is to come---if that involves the bodily return of Christ in the end of this age, which it obviously does. Only full Preterists could argue it doesn't.

 

[Hammster]

Nobody is going to miss his coming.

[ Quote , But it is interesting that even those who pierced Him would see Him. I wonder who that would be.]

Who do you think they are?

Those who crucified him. It’s pretty obvious.

 

[Hammster]

Since it appears you are referring to Revelation 1:7, have you looked at that verse while also considering the verse that follows?

Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Notice what verse 8 says---which is, and which was, and which is to come


Obviously, he cometh with clouds, has to be referring to this---which is---or this---and which was---or this---and which is to come



Maybe it's just me, but I see it referring to this---and which is to come. We know that is meaning future, the fact
'which is' is meaning present, and 'which was' is meaning past. That only accounts for past and present. Therefore, 'and which is to come', this accounts for future.

This phrase basically means this---which is--IOW, is alive once again---and which was--IOW, was here for awhile, then was dead for awhile, then left for awhile after coming back from the dead---and which is to come---IOW, shall come again, meaning once the time involving the ascension has expired.

Revelation 1:7 is a prophecy. Prophecies predict future events not past events. When John received the visions, it was post Jesus' death, resurrection and ascension back into heaven. Therefore, the fact Revelation 1:7 correlates with Matthew 24:30, where both involve the tribes of the earth seeing Him, both involve that via a coming of Him, one is left to conclude that, since the coming in Revelation 1:7 is a future event, so is the coming in Matthew 24:30.

Unless someone wants to argue something preposterous, such as, prophecies don't predict future events but predict past events instead, Revelation 1:7 therefore proves the coming meant is a future coming not a past coming. Keeping in mind what I already said here---When John received the visions, it was post Jesus' death, resurrection and ascension back into heaven. Therefore, since prophecies predict future events, what is recorded in Revelation 1:7 has to be an event that can't happen until the ascension is finished first. Yet, some will argue it was a future event since Revelation was written prior to 70 AD, and that Revelation 1:7 is meaning 70 AD. Maybe so, that still doesn't solve this in verse 8---and which is to come---if that involves the bodily return of Christ in the end of this age, which it obviously does. Only full Preterists could argue it doesn't.

You are reading more into v. 8 then is there. Jesus is saying that He’s eternal. That’s it.

 

[jeffweedaman]

Unless someone wants to argue something preposterous, such as, prophecies don't predict future events but predict past events instead, Revelation 1:7 therefore proves the coming meant is a future coming not a past coming. Keeping in mind what I already said here---When John received the visions, it was post Jesus' death, resurrection and ascension back into heaven. Therefore, since prophecies predict future events, what is recorded in Revelation 1:7 has to be an event that can't happen until the ascension is finished first.

Yes.

Act 3
19 Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord; 20 and that He may send Jesus, the Christ appointed for you, 21 whom heaven must receive until the period of restoration of all things, about which God spoke by the mouths of His holy prophets from ancient times.

 

[DavidPT]

You are reading more into v. 8 then is there. Jesus is saying that He’s eternal. That’s it.

That verse also says this---and which is to come. And what happens once that coming occurs, is it still going to be true a billion years from now---and which is to come--- if He already came and stayed? I'm not reading more into v. 8 than is there. You are not reading what is there, and then understanding it coherently, since it doesn't make sense to still indicate one is to come after they already did. Did you also neglect to see it mentioned the beginning and the ending in that verse? The ending can't be meaning this--which is--since that is meaning eternal. And it can't be meaning this---which was--since that is meaning past, and that it never involved the ending. Therefore, and which is to come---that is what has to be involving the ending.

 

[Timtofly]

It has to be the final judgment.....
If it is not.., then this brings Gods idea of selecting and separating a sheep into question.
They wouldnt be sheep after all as some of them will have to rebel in order for further judgment to happen again in your future scenario.

The sheep inherit Eden and the goats inherit eternal separation when Jesus comes again a SECOND time.


Matt 25
31 “But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; 33 and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.

34 “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.

41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;

These sheep reign with Christ on earth for 1,000 years before the GWT. The church does not stand at the GWT. The separation of the sheep is to death to be resurrected in Revelation 20:4. Are you Amil? Only Amil and post mill claim one final judgement. Pre-mill do not or should not view Matthew 25 as the GWT. It is not.

 

[DavidPT]

These sheep reign with Christ on earth for 1,000 years before the GWT. The church does not stand at the GWT. The separation of the sheep is to death to be resurrected in Revelation 20:4. Are you Amil? Only Amil and post mill claim one final judgement. Pre-mill do not or should not view Matthew 25 as the GWT. It is not.

Jeff is Amil. I do agree with you that Matthew 25 is is not the GWTJ, but I agree for different reasons.

 

[Hammster]

That verse also says this---and which is to come. And what happens once that coming occurs, is it still going to be true a billion years from now---and which is to come--- if He already came and stayed? I'm not reading more into v. 8 than is there. You are not reading what is there, and then understanding it coherently, since it doesn't make sense to still indicate one is to come after they already did. Did you also neglect to see it mentioned the beginning and the ending in that verse? The ending can't be meaning this--which is--since that is meaning eternal. And it can't be meaning this---which was--since that is meaning past, and that it never involved the ending. Therefore, and which is to come---that is what has to be involving the ending.

Let’s say that you’re correct and at the time He said it, He was still to come. That still fits with the postmillennial view, especially since things were to soon take place, and some of those who pierced Him would see Him.

 

[jeffweedaman]

These sheep reign with Christ on earth for 1,000 years before the GWT. The church does not stand at the GWT.

The Sheep inherit a curse free world from the foundation of the world , while the goats are thrown onto the lake of fire at his coming. Thats what Jesus teaches us in Matt 25.
The Church are revealed when the book of life is opened and the goats are not found in the book and are then thrown into the lake at the GWT. Thats the same teaching.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

So why does the end of the book still only list 12 tribes?

Revelation 21:12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:


Also, why is it, in the OT when tribes are mentioned, it generally always seems to involve the tribes of Israel?

I think you missed the point. Not every time the Greek word "phylē" (translated as tribe or kindred) is used is it referring to the tribes of Israel. The word can be used to refer to people groups in general as well. And his point is that in Revelation 1:7 it doesn't specifically refer to the tribes of Israel, but rather refers to the tribes/kindreds of the earth. It says "every eye shall see Him", so it's clearly not just referring to the tribes of Israel seeing Him.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

These sheep reign with Christ on earth for 1,000 years before the GWT. The church does not stand at the GWT. The separation of the sheep is to death to be resurrected in Revelation 20:4. Are you Amil? Only Amil and post mill claim one final judgement. Pre-mill do not or should not view Matthew 25 as the GWT. It is not.

The problem with your interpretation of Matthew 25:31-46 is that you have the sheep with mortal flesh and blood inheriting the kingdom of God. That contradicts what Paul taught.

1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

The Sheep inherit a curse free world from the foundation of the world , while the goats are thrown onto the lake of fire at his coming. Thats what Jesus teaches us in Matt 25.
The Church are revealed when the book of life is opened and the goats are not found in the book and are then thrown into the lake at the GWT. Thats the same teaching.

Exactly. I don't know how anyone can deny that the following 2 verses speak of the same event:

Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

The first verse is said to happen "When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him" (Matt 25:31) and the second verse is said to happen after the thousand years (and Satan's little season). That means the goats ("ye cursed") are those whose names are "not found written in the book of life" and it places the second coming after the thousand years (and Satan's little season).

 

[Timtofly]

What was to happen to the O.T-era dead was a central issue in the switch from the Old Covenant age to the New Covenant age. And in fact, nearly all christian groups admit that a major change took place for the dead during that time. Yet there is no agreement about what event marked their release from Hades. I believe the scripture is clear that the destruction of the Temple marked their release from Hades, as St. Paul teaches.

I think Paul addresses it by saying the dead ones go first and living ones later. For sure, I believe we can all agree that faithful Christians are now raised to heaven at death, and that this phenomenon began no later than AD 70. I believe St. Paul marks the change as having taken place with the destruction of the Old Covenant constitution and commonwealth.

You are 40 years late to the party. Those in sheol were released and ascended with Christ in 30AD. Paul was addressing the post Cross church. We are dead in corruptible bodies. We need resurrection and change, not the dead already in Paradise.

 

[Timtofly]

The Sheep inherit a curse free world from the foundation of the world , while the goats are thrown onto the lake of fire at his coming. Thats what Jesus teaches us in Matt 25.
The Church are revealed when the book of life is opened and the goats are not found in the book and are then thrown into the lake at the GWT. Thats the same teaching.

Nope, those sheep in Matthew 25 do not even know they are sheep. They are chosen because of works. It is not by faith in the Atonement.

Those at the GWT rejected the Atonement, and more than likely will keep rejecting the Atonement.

 

[Timtofly]

The problem with your interpretation of Matthew 25:31-46 is that you have the sheep with mortal flesh and blood inheriting the kingdom of God. That contradicts what Paul taught.

1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Nope. They are killed (soul harvested by an angel. No more Adam's flesh and blood) and resurrected and judged. Jesus Christ chose them. They did not chose Jesus. Show me in Matthew 25 where they chose Jesus Christ.

 

[parousia70]

I explained why in post 155.
Did every eye see him in AD 70?

Every eye = every tribe, nation, language and people of the whole earth.

And Here?
Isaiah 52:10
The Lord has made bare His holy arm In the eyes of all the nations;

On what date exactly did every eye of every person of every nation of the whole earth optically SEE Gods LITERAL Arm, as Isaiah Says they did here?

Surely such a monumental, globally visible event of the actual arm of God being optically seen by every eye of every person on earth would be well documented in all the Historical records of every unique nation, tribe and tongue from that time period, no?

 

[DavidPT]

I think you missed the point. Not every time the Greek word "phylē" (translated as tribe or kindred) is used is it referring to the tribes of Israel. The word can be used to refer to people groups in general as well. And his point is that in Revelation 1:7 it doesn't specifically refer to the tribes of Israel, but rather refers to the tribes/kindreds of the earth. It says "every eye shall see Him", so it's clearly not just referring to the tribes of Israel seeing Him.

Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

This says all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him


wail---koptw
kopto
kop'-to
a primary verb; to "chop"; specially, to beat the breast in grief:--cut down, lament, mourn, (be-)wail. Compare the base of tomwteroV - tomoteros 5114.



Let's now compare to something in Zechariah 12.

Zechariah 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.
12 And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart;
13 The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart;
14 All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart.

mourn---caphad
saw-fad'
a primitive root; properly, to tear the hair and beat the breasts (as Orientals do in grief); generally to lament; by implication, to wail:--lament, mourn(-er), wail.


The Greek word used in Revelation , and the Hebrew word used in Zechariah 12, they literally mean the same things. Let's do some further comparing.

------------------
and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him(Revelation 1:7)----and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced(Zechariah 12:10)

and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him(Revelation 1:7)----and they shall mourn for him(Zechariah 12:10)----In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon. And the land shall mourn, every family apart(Zechariah 12:11-14).
------------------------------

How can these passages not be describing the same events? How can Revelation 1:7 be about a prophecy that is yet to happen, but that Zechariah 12:10-14 is about a prophecy that has already been fulfilled, if both accounts are describing the same events?

If they are describing the same events, we have to conclude that Zechariah 12:11-14 is a future event still, because Revelation 1:7 is a future event still. Or we have to conclude Revelation 1:7 is a past fulfilled event because Zechariah 12:11-14 is a past fulfilled event.

What other options do we have if those 2 accounts are describing the same events? Assuming they are, keeping in mind that I said assuming they are the same events, which are you prepared to admit? Zechariah 12:11-14 is a future event still, because Revelation 1:7 is still a future event. Or---Revelation 1:7 is a past fulfilled event because Zechariah 12:11-14 is a past fulfilled event.

To make it easier to decide, maybe Matthew 24:30 might help, since that obviously is referring to the same coming that Revelation 1:7 is referring to. Both accounts involve tribes of the earth mourning in regards to a coming of Christ.