Predestination vs. Seeking, knocking and Answering the Door

[BobRyan]

Responding to this post #312 -- you said

one thing is crystal clear: The examples you're using do not address why some have faith and others don't, and thus only suggest free-will

John 1:11 which is one of many examples given in post #312 - shows God as first actor - and "then" failure in the case of "His OWN".

Is 5 - as noted in my post - has God Himself giving the lament "What MORE was there to do that I have not already done???"

In each example I give in that post - there remains to be found "some solution" for the Calvnist POV which you are not yet posting. Your question above is not a solution but a question - and is about the mechanism for free will that results in some choosing one way and others choosing another direction when BOTH are supernaturally DRAWN by God who "Draws ALL mankind unto Christ" John 12:32

God shows us the "whosoever will" system in action for Free Will but does not give us the blue print on how infinite sovereign God creates free will. He also shows us "His lament" when things fail -- asking "What MORE was there to do that I have not already done???" Is 5:3-4

IF I thought I had to "sit in God's chair" and fully explain everything He can do before He actually "can" do it - I would be somewhat frustrated in those attempts.

 

[Clare73]

And as long our interpretations are orthodox (which both Calvinism and Arminianism are), I totally agree. This is what my heart yearns for on internet discussions. Thanks for that brother

I seek Biblical rather than orthodox.

 

[BobRyan]

Therefore, God works in the disposition, giving one to understand and prefer the things that come from the Spirit of God, which man then freely and willingly receives and believes.

So God uses, not violates, the will in bringing men to saving faith in the person and work of Jesus Christ.

On the surface that appears to be a form of circular reasoning saying that God does not violate free will as He overtakes it and like a puppet master manipulating the puppet - causes the response He is looking for.

But as apparently faulty as that model might be - it provides no space for "God's Lament" as shown in my post -- where it is God Himself asking "what more was there to do that I have not already done?" Is 5:4

And it makes the John 1:11 statement appear to be even more irreconcilable with Calvinism in the solution you are suggesting.

 

[Sidon]

See Thread :

Being conformed

 

[Clare73]

Well this "IS" a change from the Romans 2 subject - Ok fine - we will "switch" to this topic --Since I already addressed it here --
====================
@Clare73
John 6 has this "context" for John 6:65
43 Jesus therefore answered and said to them, “Do not murmur among yourselves.
44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day

Drawing and enabling are not the same thing, nor do they necessarily apply to the same people.

65 65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

God's drawing is evidence of His granting -- in John 6.

Not necessarily.

In John 12:32 Christ declares that God sovereignly "Draws ALL MANKIND unto Me" - without exception.

Adding to the Scriptures again?

There is no drawing by God "without exception" in John 6:44 and, therefore,
there is no granting by God "without exception" in John 6:65.

In addition, in John 12:32, Christ declares that it is he who will draw all men to himself.

And in John 6:65 he likewise declares "No on can come to me unless the Father has enabled him,"
which is not in disagreement with John 12:32.

Many Calvinists will admit

It's not about Calvin, it's about the NT.

that the supernatural drawing of God ENABLES the choice that depravity "disables". And God Draws ALL

You're adding to the Scriptures again. . .Christ declares that it is he who will draw all men to himself.

-- not "just the few" or "Just an arbitrarily select FEW"

Still as John 1:11 points out "He came to His OWN and His OWN received Him not"

Oops! Did he, or did he not draw them? He certainly didn't enable them.

Seems to verify John 6:65.

 

[BobRyan]

Just one of many Bible details here - #312

Still as John 1:11 points out "He came to His OWN and His OWN received Him not"

Oops! Did he, or did he not draw them?

Seems to verify John 6:65.

He draws ALL - the unqualified ALL -- which is always "all mankind". So "yes" did not only came to "His OWN" He also "drew His OWN" and so then we have the-much-skipped-over Isaiah 5:4 "

4 What more could have been done to My vineyard
That I have not done in it?
Why then, when I expected it to bring forth good grapes,
Did it bring forth wild grapes?​

When once again confronted with that same failure in John 1:11 as we see in Isaiah 5:4

I think it is funny the way these inconvenient texts do not vanish - once ignored.

 

[covid-19v1]

... scriptures that mention "seek the Lord" "answering the door" (Rev 3:20). Why answer the door if it's not necessary? It certainly looks like some action is required on our part. Why "seek" Hebrews 11:6. I just cannot ignore the simple logic in the scripture and go through scripture gymnastics to see things differently. When scripture is defined by the context it seems overwhelmingly clear to me. If exercising faith is a "Works" then answering the door and seeking are much more so.

I have not read through all the posts in this thread, so my apology in advance if this has been pointed out already....

The verse in Rev. 3:20 is not talking about salvation. It's a call for those churches to let Christ back in their business.

 

[Clare73]

Just one of many Bible details here - #312

Still as John 1:11 points out "He came to His OWN and His OWN received Him not"

Oops! Did he, or did he not draw them? He certainly didn't enable them.

He draws ALL - the unqualified ALL -- which is always "all mankind".

Adding to the Scriptures again.

God does not draw all (John 6:44).
Rather, it is Jesus who draws all (John 12:32), and also says that "no one can come to me unless they are enabled by the Father."
(John 6:65)
He also says that "all that the Father gives me will come to me." (John 6:37)
No slippage there. . .the ones the Father enables and gives to Jesus all come to him and "whoever comes to him he will never drive away."

So "yes" did not only came to "His OWN" He also "drew His OWN"

Adding to the Scriptures again?

Jesus didn't say God draws Israel, Jesus made no identification of whom the Father draws.
You have no Biblical warrant for making Israel those whom the Father draws.

and so then we have the-much-skipped-over Isaiah 5:4 "

4 What more could have been done to My vineyard
That I have not done in it?
Why then, when I expected it to bring forth good grapes,
Did it bring forth wild grapes?​

Demonstrating that drawing is not the same as enabling.

Because all those the Father enables (John 6:65) and gives to Jesus do come to Jesus (John 6:37).
Israel was neither enabled nor given to Jesus, because Israel did not come to Jesus.

When once again confronted with that same failure in John 1:11 as we see in Isaiah 5:4

I think it is funny the way these inconvenient texts do not vanish - once ignored.

Almost as funny as adding to the Scriptures in
John 1:11, which states nothing about the Father drawing Israel,
John 6:44, which states nothing about the Father drawing all, and
John 6:65, which states nothing about the Father enabling all "without exception."

Physician, heal thyself.

 

[BobRyan]

Oops! Did he, or did he not draw them? He certainly didn't enable them.

He certainly did enable them - as John 6 says - God's drawing is enabling.

Yep -- they were enabled because they were drawn - and even Calvinists admit that the supernatural drawing of God - enables all the "choice" that depravity disables when it comes to choosing the Gospel.

 

[BobRyan]

so then we have the-much-skipped-over Isaiah 5:4 "
4 What more could have been done to My vineyard
That I have not done in it?
Why then, when I expected it to bring forth good grapes,
Did it bring forth wild grapes?

Demonstrating that drawing is not the same as enabling.

neither are mentioned in Isaiah 5 - but no worries - John 6 lays it out - that drawing IS enabling.

One Calvinist likes to say it this way --

Calvin's Theology: Predestination
“God ordains individuals to salvation and its benefits but there is the free outward call of the gospel where the listener is invited to believe. Calvin distinguishes this outward call from the inward work of the Holy Spirit who regenerates and enlivens, inwardly drawing the sinner to God’s grace and enabling them to receive it by faith. “

 

[Clare73]

He certainly did enable them - as John 6 says - God's drawing is enabling.

Adding to the Scriptures again?

John 6 says no such thing.

Drawing (John 11:32) and enabling (John 6:65) are not the same thing, nor do they necessarily apply to the same people.
Only the enabled come.

Yep -- they were enabled because they were drawn - and even Calvinists admit that the supernatural drawing of God - enables all the "choice" that depravity disables when it comes to choosing the Gospel.

 

[Clare73]

neither are mentioned in Isaiah 5 - but no worries - John 6 lays it out - that drawing IS enabling.

Adding to the Scriptures again, as in

John 1:11, which states nothing about the Father drawing Israel,
John 6:44, which states nothing about the Father drawing all, and
John 6:65, which states nothing about the Father enabling all "without exception."

Scripture lays out that drawing (John 11:32) and enabling (John 6:65) are not the same thing,
nor do they necessarily apply to the same people.
Only the enabled come.

One Calvinist likes to say it this way --

I prefer the way Scripture presents it.

Calvin's Theology: Predestination
“God ordains individuals to salvation and its benefits but there is the free outward call of the gospel where the listener is invited to believe. Calvin distinguishes this outward call from the inward work of the Holy Spirit who regenerates and enlivens, inwardly drawing the sinner to God’s grace and enabling them to receive it by faith. “

 

[fhansen]

No respectable Calvinist/reformed person actually does this. Just because by human reasoning standards it sounds like "robotic puppets", doesn't mean that's how it appears to God. Consistent Calvinists will obey the commands of God, they just don't believe their obedience works to atone for their sins.

First of all I've had the puppet metaphor accepted as non-objectionable and reasonably workable-by Calvinists. And no one I know believes that works atone for our sins-Jesus did that. Catholics believe that, with our sins atoned for and being justified by faith, we must now walk in that justice or righteousness-with eternal life at stake. We'd be mocking God and the work of His Son and the gift of the Spirit to do otherwise.

Anyway, the main question here centers around whether or not the will of man is at all involved in his justification and salvation, even if only in the ability to say "no", opposing God's will. Hebrews 11:6 implies that God is extremely pleased with our faith and our seeking Him. And this makes sense only if that faith and that seeking are offered yet optional. It would be rather absurd for God to give man the gift of faith that he could not refuse, causing him to accept it, and then sit back and say, Wow! How pleased I am that this person believed in and sought Me. God's pleased- He's delighted- because faith and the relationship it establishes are absolutely the best thing for man, the beginnings of the restoration to order and justice and right stead with his Maker, a union that man was made for. And because they're optional- man can, and some do, choose otherwise.

 

[HosannaHM]

I seek Biblical rather than orthodox.

Really? This kind of rhetoric doesn't even warrant a response

 

[98cwitr]

Just one of many Bible details here - #312

Still as John 1:11 points out "He came to His OWN and His OWN received Him not"



He draws ALL - the unqualified ALL -- which is always "all mankind". So "yes" did not only came to "His OWN" He also "drew His OWN" and so then we have the-much-skipped-over Isaiah 5:4 "

4 What more could have been done to My vineyard
That I have not done in it?
Why then, when I expected it to bring forth good grapes,
Did it bring forth wild grapes?​

When once again confronted with that same failure in John 1:11 as we see in Isaiah 5:4

I think it is funny the way these inconvenient texts do not vanish - once ignored.

Matthew 22:14 “For many are invited, but few are chosen.”

Who's doing the choosing?

John 15:16
You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you.

Acts 10:41
He was not seen by all the people, but by witnesses whom God had already chosen—by us who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead.

Romans 8:33
Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies.

Ephesians 1:4
For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight.

1 Thessalonians 1:4
For we know, brothers and sisters loved by God, that he has chosen you,

The question remains: Why is God choose some and not others? Might you say their merited to be chosen by some work, even a work as the self-manifestation of faith?

Is faith generated by man or God...at least answer us this very important question.

 

[fhansen]

Matthew 22:14 “For many are invited, but few are chosen.”

Who's doing the choosing?

John 15:16
You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you.

Acts 10:41
He was not seen by all the people, but by witnesses whom God had already chosen—by us who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead.

Romans 8:33
Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies.

Ephesians 1:4
For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight.

1 Thessalonians 1:4
For we know, brothers and sisters loved by God, that he has chosen you,

The question remains: Why is God choose some and not others? Might you say their merited to be chosen by some work, even a work as the self-manifestation of faith?

Is faith generated by man or God...at least answer us this very important question.

Faith is said to be both a gift-and a very human choice and act-to accept and express that gift. And God chooses-and yet until the day is ended we don't know with the certainty that only He has who's been chosen and who has not been. We can't predict our own perseverance for that matter.

 

[TedT]

The NT is not in agreement. . .it continually exhorts mankind to choose.

The ability to choose is NOT proof that our wills are not enslaved or addicted to choosing evil as art of if not the intent of every choice we make.

We cannot choose righteousness so how are we free when we choose?

 

[BobRyan]

In response to this post - #312 -- we have

The question remains: Why is God choose some and not others? Might you say their merited to be chosen by some work, even a work as the self-manifestation of faith?

Is faith generated by man or God...at least answer us this very important question.

Ok so your solution to #312 is not to address any of it?

Isaiah 5:3-4
3 “And now, you inhabitants of Jerusalem and people of Judah,
Judge between Me and My vineyard.
4 What more was there to do for My vineyard that I have not done in it?
Why, when I expected it to produce good grapes did it produce worthless ones?

The two questions

1. What more was there to do for My vineyard that I have not done in it? (Answer: "Nothing more you could have done")
   
2. Why, when I expected it to produce good grapes did it produce worthless ones? (Answer; They have no excuse - you already did everything)

Now let's edit God's questions

1. What more was there to do for someone I decree to be lost - that I have not done? (Answer: nothing)
2. When I expected them to fail - did they fail as expected? (Answer: yes)

But Calvinism has an answer for God first question, the question actually IN the text.
What more was there to do for My vineyard that I have not done in it? (Answer: "we all know good and well what you could have done if you wanted them not to fail -- you could have drawn, chosen, enabled and caused them to do the right thing")

The question remains: Why is God choose some and not others? Might you say their merited to be chosen by some work, even a work as the self-manifestation of faith?

Is faith generated by man or God...at least answer us this very important question.

Rom 2 is being ignored entirely so then Rom 2:11 "God is not partial" is being ignored as well.

All the Bible examples in my post - #312 - are being ignored, so now I am to address that question above...

1 Peter 1: To those who reside as strangers, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen 2 according to the foreknowledge of God the Father

Now I have answered your question - ... so is it time for you to address the Bible Examples I have given from Romans 2 and in post - #312 - ?? and the Romans 2 details in #291

 

[TedT]

This is heresy.

...and your Calvinism is a heresy to the RCC, sigh. Your clique is not the judge of all truth.

 

[spiritfilledjm]

Heresy: belief or opinion contrary to orthodox religious (especially Christian) doctrine.

All views are heresies to those who do not share that opinion.