Predestination vs. Seeking, knocking and Answering the Door

Bobber

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Does it make any sense for GOD to command you to believe in Him if GOD is the One who makes a person to believe? Why give us a commandment if it is GOD who ultimately forces us to believe? It makes no sense.

Correct. It's an instruction for someone to do something and bringing it up to a command is to say this is something you seriously need to consider to obey. But why the need to instill the seriousness of anything if they can leave the person on their own anyway? In other words why waste my breath. If I'm just going to put in the drive in the person to do a certain action no need to even make it an instruction. Calvinism doesn't seem well thought out.
 
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Clare73

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"Responsible" means that they have a choice,
Not necessarily, but change it to "guilty."
God holds mankind guilty of Adam' sin which God has imputed to man (Romans 5:12-14, Romans 5:18-19).
that they can do otherwise even if a divine hand reaching down first of all and offering to pull us up is essential.
Well, it doesn't say God imputes it,
It says God reckons (credits, accounts, imputes) the righteousness of Jesus Christ to man (Romans 5:18b,
Romans 5:19b) just as he reckoned (credited) righteousness to Abraham (Genesis 15:6)--through faith apart from works (Romans 4:5).

It says God reckons (credits, accounts, imputes) the guilt of Adam to man (Romans 5:12-14, Romans 5:18a, Romans 5:19a).

God holds all mankind guilty of Adam's sin, all are born condemned (Romans 5:18), by nature (birth) objects of God's wrath (Ephesians 2:3).

As I pointed out in post #246, until you reckon with this NT revelation, you will not correctly understand NT revelation regarding
man's position before God; man's culpability; inability; righteousness; justification; salvation; or sanctification.
 
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fhansen

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It says God reckons (credits, accounts, imputes) the righteousness of Jesus Christ to man (Romans 5:18b, Romans 5:19b) just as
he reckoned (credited) righteousness to Abraham (Genesis 15:6)--through faith apart from works (Romans 4:5).
And without his works his faith would've been worthless, as James tells us. Augustine put it well, in another way,
"Without love faith may indeed exist, but avails nothing."

And love is, necessarily, a choice even as it's also a work of God in us. And love acts, or works, for the good of others, by its nature. Talk is cheap. More than any other means, to the extent that we love we know we're His.
As I pointed out in post #246, until you reckon with this NT revelation, you will not correctly understand NT revelation regarding man's position before God; man's culpability; inability; righteousness; justification; salvation; and sanctification.
Well, until you "reckon" it with the rest of Scripture you won't understand the gospel as well as you otherwise could.
 
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Clare73

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Yeah it never made sense to me that God would be pleased with faith that He personally generated. Surely He is pleased with faith that the world seems foolish. 2 Corinthians 1:21
First rule of divine revelation: don't judge God's ways by man's ways (Isaiah 55:8-9).
 
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Clare73

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And without his works his faith would've been worthless,
Without obedience it would not have been faith, anymore than would chewing gum. . .your point is redundant and has nothing to do with justification by faith apart from works (Romans 4:5, Romans 3:21, Romans 3:28).

No need to keep confounding the gospel.
Well, until you "reckon" it with the rest of Scripture you won't understand the gospel as well as you otherwise could.
Romans 5:12-14, Romans 5:18-19 reconcile beautifully with all Scripture, which should come as no surprise.
 
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First rule of divine revelation: don't judge God's ways by man's ways (Isaiah 55:8-9).

God doing everything in giving mankind faith towards Him is the same thing as God worshipping Himself.

That's pointless.
 
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Clare73

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God doing everything in giving mankind faith towards Him is the same thing as God worshipping Himself.

That's pointless.
Wow!

I rest my case of post #264. . .
 
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BobRyan

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Romans 9 is about the children of God ( Romans 9:6-8 ).
It is about vessels of wrath and vessels of mercy ( Romans 9:22-24 ), both Jew and Gentile.

Exactly.
Not according to who runs ( works ) for it, or uses their belief to get it.

It is of grace, not of man's efforts ( Romans 11:5-6 ) or of works ( Ephesians 2:8-9 ).
If a person approaches the Lord with the idea of using something ( anything ) to actually influence the Lord to do something or to gain His unmerited favor, they've missed what grace really is...

It cannot be merited.

If it could, then He would be a respecter of persons.

Rom 2:4-16 makes it clear as to the difference between a saved person and a lost one - and it is not the arbitrary or partial action of God in either case.
 
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BobRyan

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God doing everything in giving mankind faith towards Him is the same thing as God worshipping Himself.

That's pointless.

It is "robots" - if all God was interested in doing was "creating robots" it would be a pointless exercise of the form
1. See what happens when I program this one to obey Me?
2. See what happens when I program this one to rebel against Me?

It would be as interesting to God as pushing a pencil across a paper would be for us and then having us say "see how I can push this pencil across this piece of paper? I am pretty good at that as it turns out"
 
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BobRyan

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Is 5:4 - God's lament when He sees Israel in rebellion "what MORE could I have done than that which I have already done? Why then when I expected success did it fail?"

What more was there to do for My vineyard that I have not done in it?
Why, when I expected it to produce good grapes did it produce worthless ones?

John 1:11 "He came to HIS OWN and His OWN received Him not"

2 Peter 3 "God is not WILLING for any to perish but for ALL to come to repentance"

2 Cor 5 - 20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.

you can't get those results in a "push pencil across piece of paper" system.
 
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It would be as interesting to God as pushing a pencil across a paper would be for us and then having us say "see how I can push this pencil across this piece of paper? I am pretty good at that as it turns out"

Yeah pretty much. God forcing someone to worship Him is pointless.
 
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BobRyan

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Yeah pretty much. God forcing someone to worship Him is pointless.

There is a proposed model where nothing happens that God does not "will" to happen - yet in 2 Peter 3 God tells us point blank "He is not willing that ANY should perish but that ALL should come to repentance". - Still in Matt 7 when all is said and done - only the FEW of Matt 7 are saved and it is the MANY that are lost - as God informs us.

He knows all the results - He WILLs that all should be saved - but He also sovereignly chooses to sustain a "free will system". And Rev 3:20 is how the Gospel is going out --

20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.

Instead of "behold I arbitrarily select some doors to force open and insert myself into the person's life - and other doors to ignore".

Rom 2:11 "God is NOT partial" just when some world views claim that He is.
 
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Clare73

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It is "robots" - if all God was interested in doing was "creating robots" it would be a pointless exercise of the form
1. See what happens when I program this one to obey Me?
2. See what happens when I program this one to rebel against Me?

It would be as interesting to God as pushing a pencil across a paper would be for us and then having us say "see how I can push this pencil across this piece of paper? I am pretty good at that as it turns out"
Let's get it down to where we can all get it.

What do you think of the guy who picks up stray mongrels, pays all the vet bills to get their health in order and then turns them into loving, well-disciplined dogs that would be worthy of show?

So all the guy is interested in is tickling his fancy?
 
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Clare73

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Yeah pretty much. God forcing someone to worship Him is pointless.
Which is why God doesn't do it.

What is pointless is ignorance of the revelation of God regarding himself and propagation of ignorant falsehood.
 
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Clare73

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There is a proposed model where nothing happens that God does not "will" to happen - yet in 2 Peter 3 God tells us point blank "He is not willing that ANY should perish but that ALL should come to repentance". - Still in Matt 7 when all is said and done - only the FEW of Matt 7 are saved and it is the MANY that are lost - as God informs us.

He knows all the results - He WILLs that all should be saved - but He also sovereignly chooses to sustain a "free will system". And Rev 3:20 is how the Gospel is going out --

20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.

Instead of "behold I arbitrarily select some doors to force open and insert myself into the person's life - and other doors to ignore".

Rom 2:11 "God is NOT partial" just when some world views claim that He is.
Or, instead, out of all condemned mankind, he sovereignly chooses for his own purposes to work in the hearts of some, so that when he knocks, they willingly open and receive him.

Wow! Who knew?
 
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Clare73

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Rom 2:4-16 makes it clear as to the difference between a saved person and a lost one - and it is not the arbitrary or partial action of God in either case.
And Romans 2:4-16 presents no one who is saved or righteous.
In context, it demonstrates that no one is made righteous by law keeping, rather "all who rely on the law are under a curse" (Galatians 3:10).
 
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HosannaHM

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Correct. It's an instruction for someone to do something and bringing it up to a command is to say this is something you seriously need to consider to obey. But why the need to instill the seriousness of anything if they can leave the person on their own anyway? In other words why waste my breath. If I'm just going to put in the drive in the person to do a certain action no need to even make it an instruction. Calvinism doesn't seem well thought out.

Hello Bobber. This portrayal of Calvinism is reductionist in scope. If Calvinism is not so well thought out, then why have so many prominent, productive members of the Christian faith identified with the doctrines of grace?
John Newton, George Whitefield, John Calvin (despite some thinking Calvinism is dumb, this man was brilliant), Charles Spurgeon, pretty much all the Puritans, and the list goes on and on.
Please don't misunderstand me. I'm not saying "believe it because these guys did". I'm saying maybe it's a bit more thought out than you are realizing.
 
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Clare73

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Hello Bobber. This portrayal of Calvinism is reductionist in scope. If Calvinism is not so well thought out, then why have so many prominent, productive members of the Christian faith identified with the doctrines of grace?
John Newton, George Whitefield, John Calvin (despite some thinking Calvinism is dumb, this man was brilliant), Charles Spurgeon, pretty much all the Puritans, and the list goes on and on.
Please don't misunderstand me. I'm not saying "believe it because these guys did". I'm saying maybe it's a bit more thought out than you are realizing.
Why the focus on Calvin, instead of the Scriptures involved?
 
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HosannaHM

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Why the focus on Calvin, instead of the Scriptures involved?
Hey Claire, I don't have a problem focusing on what the Scriptures say at all, but this a common objection from Arminians/free will defenders. If we are about election at all, we get lumped in as Calvinist, and then it becomes about the system and not the Scriptures. It always comes back to the system in a discussion. Men and systems are easier to attack than the Scriptures
 
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