God's Plan & The Flood

[mmarco]

Isn't 'eternity' just un-ending time?

No, eternity means a condition external and independent form the historical time; we cannot imagine how a life outside time can be and this is a limit of ours, but we can understand that God lives independently from time, because He is the Creator of time and the Master of time.

 

[Gene Parmesan]

I don't think so.

Since the bible is clear that HE doesn't want anyone to die and be condemned but to repent and live, all HE had to do to fulfill HIS desire to keep hell empty was to NOT CREATE those HE knew would end there.

Since HE did create them, the definition of HIS omniscience is wrong and must be reworked because it is impossible for the Person who is love to KNOWINGLY create those who will just go to hell without ever being able to fulfill HIS purpose for their creation, the heavenly marriage.

My current effort at reconciliation of these ideas suggests that HE knows everything about what HE created but if HE did not create the results of the free will decisions and choices of HIS created people, then HE would not know what the results would be until we chose them by our free will and brought them into HIS reality.

It is an interesting thing to work out. The only way to start to make sense of free will and eternal torture and all that is to limit God in some way or another. Not knowing the future and/or not being able to change things to produce a desired outcome, for example.

 

[TedT]

So is it true that man's will can override God's will?

If override means to go against HIS desires then of course...HE has no desire for HIS creation to do evil so only by overriding the desire that we do only good can we be evil.

 

[d taylor]

If "The Flood" was a literal event that happened, was the need to start over the result of things not going according to God's Will? Or was The Flood always a part of God's plan?

The flood was to stop the corruption of humanity by satan and fallen angels. As satan was bringing about the half angel half human being. God and The coming Messiah, needed a line of pure humanity to be birthed into human flesh.

 

[Gene Parmesan]

If override means to go against HIS desires then of course...HE has no desire for HIS creation to do evil so only by overriding that desire can we be evil.

An all-powerful God can produce any outcome He desires. He intervenes sometimes specifically to do so. If He can intervene but doesn't, then that is expressly His will. He cannot merely desire. Every moment of inaction is intentional.

 

[TedT]

Does God know what demons will do before they do them? And does He have the power to prevent their actions? You suggest here that He can limit that access if He wants to, at least.

Oh yes, since they were flung to the earth , all lives on earth are predetermined to bring HIS sinful elect to redemption and sanctification the best and quickest way possible. Allowing the demons to act in the world is the greatest source of stimulus for the sinful elect to be done with them and to be willing for HIM to judge them...peruse the parable of the weeds (in two parts) in Matt 13.

 

[Gene Parmesan]

The flood was to stop the corruption of humanity by satan and fallen angels. As satan was bringing about the half angel half human being. God and The coming Messiah, needed a line of pure humanity to be birthed into human flesh.

Thanks. I'll clarify that why He "needed" to do something is different from if He knew from the beginning if He'd have to do it.

 

[TedT]

God said it grieved him that he made humanity. That doesn't sound like someone who's having their will accomplished.

I think HIS grieving was for the fact that the sins of the elect forced HIM to postpone the judgement day and create a world ie, mankind) where the sinful elect and the demonic reprobate could live together even though it was the best solution to how to separate the sinful elect from their idolatry of the evil ones...See the parable of the weeds in two parts, Matt 13.

 

[Gene Parmesan]

I think HIS grieving was for the fact that the sins of the elect forced HIM to postpone the judgement day and create a world ie, mankind) where the sinful elect and the demonic reprobate could live together even though it was the best solution to how to separate the sinful elect from their idolatry of the evil ones...See the parable of the weeds in two parts, Matt 13.

It's interesting that God could be forced to do something. There are things more powerful than God?

 

[TedT]

An all-powerful God can produce any outcome He desires.

GOD is bound by HIS character, HIS purpose and the needs of HIS people.

GOD cannot do anything outside of these things.

GOD is bound by HIS character of being perfectly righteous and can do no evil at all. HE cannot sin. Cannot destroy the innocent nor allow the unrepentant to live.

GOD is bound by HIS purpose of our creation to be HIS Bride, the culmination of the story of HIS work with us, ie, HE made us so HE could marry us.

This means that we must have a free will because a marriage proposal can only result in a true marriage if it is accepted by a free will decision. NO forced marriage is a real marriage. HE also wanted HIS marriage to be based on true love and no love can be real if it is forced by threatening command or by HIS creative power.

This means that HE had to allow everyone the ability to choose by their free will to accept HIS marriage proposal OR to reject it and be damned. HIS purpose for our creation demands we have this freedom even though HE could force it a different way.

My summation:
GOD created everyone in HIS image with a free will and the equal ability and opportunity to chose to put their faith in him as their creator GOD and in the Son as the saviour from all sin OR to put their faith in the idea that HE was a liar and a false god, manipulating the rest of us to worship him falsely.

HE is also bound by the needs of his creation...when our free will choices resulted in sins HE had to create an environment where those who rejected HIM as GOD (believing him to be a liar and false god) could be judged and those who accepted HIM as GOD but rebelled against HIS commands for the judgement of the others, could be brought to agree fully with HIS plans, ie, could become holy.

So, able to produce any outcome he wants - maybe...if what HE wanted was to create a whole whack of people and let them all choose to accept HIS marriage proposal or reject it by their free will but I don't think this is the kind of any outcome you mean...

 

[Gene Parmesan]

GOD is bound by HIS character, HIS purpose and the needs of HIS people.

GOD cannot do anything outside of these things.

GOD is bound by HIS character of being perfectly righteous and can do no evil at all. HE cannot sin. Cannot destroy the innocent nor allow the unrepentant to live.

GOD is bound by HIS purpose of our creation to be HIS Bride, the culmination of the story of HIS work with us, ie, HE made us so HE could marry us.

This means that we must have a free will because a marriage proposal can only result in a true marriage if it is accepted by a free will decision. NO forced marriage is a real marriage. HE also wanted HIS marriage to be based on true love and no love can be real if it is forced by threatening command or by HIS creative power.

This means that HE had to allow everyone the ability to choose by their free will to accept HIS marriage proposal OR to reject it and be damned. HIS purpose for our creation demands we have this freedom even though HE could force it a different way.

My summation:
GOD created everyone in HIS image with a free will and the equal ability and opportunity to chose to put their faith in him as their creator GOD and in the Son as the saviour from all sin OR to put their faith in the idea that HE was a liar and a false god, manipulating the rest of us to worship him falsely.

HE is also bound by the needs of his creation...when our free will choices resulted in sins HE had to create an environment where those who rejected HIM as GOD (believing him to be a liar and false god) could be judged and those who accepted HIM as GOD but rebelled against HIS commands for the judgement of the others, could be brought to agree fully with HIS plans, ie, could become holy.

So, able to produce any outcome he wants - maybe...if what HE wanted was to create a whole whack of people and let them all choose to accept HIS marriage proposal or reject it by their free will but I don't think this is the kind of any outcome you mean...

I see! I want to clarify though, God cannot do the things He is bound by, which you state are, "HIS character, HIS purpose and the needs of HIS people." He "cannot" or He chooses not to? I think that's an interesting distinction to make.

 

[renniks]

I see! I want to clarify though, God cannot do the things He is bound by, which you state are, "HIS character, HIS purpose and the needs of HIS people." He "cannot" or He chooses not to? I think that's an interesting distinction to make.

If God chose to do that which was contrary to his nature, he would no longer be the God of the Bible.

God being holy, could not become a sinful human for example. If Jesus had committed sin he could not be our savior..

 

[Gene Parmesan]

If God chose to do that which was contrary to his nature, he would no longer be the God of the Bible.

God being holy, could not become a sinful human for example. If Jesus had committed sin he could not be our savior..

So He can do things contrary to His nature and if He did He would thus no longer be consistent with the God of the Bible and He chooses not to? Or He is bound by an external set of rules that are imposed on Him?

 

[renniks]

So He can do things contrary to His nature and if He did He would thus no longer be consistent with the God of the Bible and He chooses not to? Or He is bound by an external set of rules that are imposed on Him?

Not external. Who is higher than him that can set some outside rule? He can't deny himself.

 

[d taylor]

Thanks. I'll clarify that why He "needed" to do something is different from if He knew from the beginning if He'd have to do it.

He did know, and knew what to do. It is like playing chess against a person who knows every move and every counter move in chess. They will play you in a game but they already know the outcome where as you may believe you can actually beat them but in reality you can not. But you will only be convinced of that if you are allowed to play them.

 

[Gene Parmesan]

He did know, and knew what to do. It is like playing chess against a person who knows every move and every counter move in chess. They will play you in a game but they already know the outcome where as you may believe you can actually beat them but in reality you can not. But you will only be convinced of that if you are allowed to play them.

To add to the analogy, the chess player who knows every move also designed the game of chess and created their chess partner and imbued their partner with as much chess playing skill as He wanted to give them.

 

[d taylor]

To add to the analogy, the chess player who knows every move also designed the game of chess and created their chess partner and imbued their partner with the as much chess playing skill as He wanted to give them.

Yes, but they could never have the same skill level. As an un-created being could not create another un-created being of equal ability, what ever He created would always be lesser

 

[aiki]

If "The Flood" was a literal event that happened, was the need to start over the result of things not going according to God's Will? Or was The Flood always a part of God's plan?

Does it have to be one or the other? It seems to me it can be both. It was not God's perfect will that the creatures He had made descended into unrelenting evil. In line with His holy nature, God would have preferred they act differently, that they act righteously. But in His omniscience, knowing that the people of Noah's time would freely choose to embrace wickedness, He acted to punish them accordingly with the Great Flood. It is impossible for an omnipotent God's plan to fail when He is also omniscient and able to prepare in advance for whatever our choice will be.

However, it is a mistake in basic modal logic to think that foreknowledge equals causation. A cat-owner may know her cat will cough up a furball after licking itself a lot, but this knowledge does not mean the cat-owner causes the cat's furball.

 

[Gene Parmesan]

Does it have to be one or the other? It seems to me it can be both. It was not God's perfect will that the creatures He had made descended into unrelenting evil. In line with His holy nature, God would have preferred they act differently, that they act righteously. But in His omniscience, knowing that the people of Noah's time would freely choose to embrace wickedness, He acted to punish them accordingly with the Great Flood. It is impossible for an omnipotent God's plan to fail when He is also omniscient and able to prepare in advance for whatever our choice will be.

However, it is a mistake in basic modal logic to think that foreknowledge equals causation. A cat-owner may know her cat will cough up a furball after licking itself a lot, but this knowledge does not mean the cat-owner causes the cat's furball.

What we are talking about is not simply foreknowledge, is it? It's not just that I've had a cat for a long time and I can predict with a fairly high accuracy the cat will behave in a certain way. It's more like I know exactly what my cat will do and I also created the cat myself and imbued within it the instinct and propensity to enjoy knocking things over and then be disappointed when it knocks my mug onto the tile floor.

You're limiting God to just knower-of-things with this example. If God knew He'd need the flood and He could have done things differently, then the Flood would indeed be His will. Anything else limits His knowledge or His power.

 

[mmarco]

You're limiting God to just knower-of-things with this example. If God knew He'd need the flood and He could have done things differently, then the Flood would indeed be His will. Anything else limits His knowledge or His power.

You are absolutely wrong. God has always known eternally everything, but He has chosen a given course of history because through this specific choice He has lead more souls to conversion and eternal salvation. God has chosen to crete men with a free will, therefore He cannot save men against their own will; He must convince men to abandon evil and sin and accept to be sanctified by His grace
Personally I do not believe that the story of the flood is to be interpreted literally; the purpose of story of the flood is to teach that the consequence of sin is death and that we can be saved only if we accept to obey God's commandments, which teaches us what is really good.