Are we reconciled before or after faith or both?

fhansen

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And who said anything about God himself being the direct cause?
If God plans that sin be committed by the sinner --what, is God then the victim of circumstance and could not stop it?
We can't have it both ways. God may know that man will sin, and determine to allow and use that sin/evil for His ultimately good purposes (purposes which can only involve the human will, BTW), but He creates nothing that isn't good; He does not create men to be sinners.
You are calling the unredeemed, "brothers and sisters"?
Um, no. I'm saying that even brothers and sisters, along with the unredeemed, haven't yet necessarily "arrived". Their wills are still involved throughout their lives, obligated, as they are, to put to death the deeds of the flesh in order to gain eternal life. God's just always working on that-for our highest good.
Not "sinful nature"? How about "sinful flesh", does that feel better?
The following passage from those you listed most accurately reflects the truth of man's fallen condition:
Romans 8:5 (GNT) Those who live as their human nature tells them to, have their minds controlled by what human nature wants. Those who live as the Spirit tells them to, have their minds controlled by what the Spirit wants.
Man didn't assume a new nature at the Fall. Rather he "simply" became separated from God, and what he's left with is just what he foolishly bargained for: human nature where subjugation to and communion with his Creator is broken. It descends into chaos, disorder, injustice, sin. Man needs grace. Man needs God, or else he remains without hope. That's what we're here to learn-so we can make the right choice.

If you seek to understand the gospel better, which we always should do anyway, then you’ll come to understand that God’s whole purpose isn’t to just save a bunch of otherwise worthless wretches and damn the rest-all for His “glory”, but rather to bring man to a point of loving as He does. And love always involves choice, necessitating free will, or else it isn’t really love at all. Bringing up good children who reflect His goodness is the Father’s glory. Salvation involved more than Jesus coming, but also all the patient work that God did, including the historical human experience that resulted in the centuries prior to that advent, preparing man to make a choice, and to make that choice more firmly and continue to do so until its permanent, until man is finally, fully, bound to God as one teaching I’m familiar with puts it.
 
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fhansen

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We have the question: "What is it that makes a man will it?" I don't have a clear answer, sure work of the Holy Spirit, but what part does man play? Most are resisting the gospel, maybe all are, before God changes something in man he won't receive the gospel. But the reason God changes this in man might have more to do with our free will choices than some are willing to ascribe it to. To me it doesn't have a simple "yes" or "no" answer. It's just a God given miracle when someone comes to faith.
I agree that it has no simple answer. The church, for its part, has historically simply refused to come down on the side of sheer determinism, and this question has been debated for many, many centuries. But we cannot limit God to being incapable of giving man free will, of placing him "in the hands of his own counsel".

From Adam on God’s been patiently working at drawing man into the proper use, rather than the abuse, of that freedom. In Eden Adam didn’t yet appreciate all that he had. And fallen man, while greatly disadvantaged due to his lack of knowledge of God, let alone the close communion with Him that such knowledge actually implies, nonetheless isn’t totally without the ability to gain a recognition for what is right and good and true in a world that severely compromises those things, and to develop a hunger and thirst for that righteousness. God will have his way, evil will eventually no longer be allowed to coexist with good, but only as His creation, gradually, cooperates in becoming aligned with His perfect wisdom and will. That’s why its all taken so long. Otherwise God could’ve just stocked heaven with His elect and hell with the rest, so to speak, in the beginning. Or prevented Adam from falling and so precluded evil altogether, if nothing more than determinism, like some kind of grand puppet show, is the means to His ends with man.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Are we reconciled before or after faith or both?

Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come. Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation,
— 2 Corinthians 5:17-18

For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.
— Romans 5:10-11

We are reconciled (justified) after faith as long as we remain in our faith. Colossians 1:22-23
 
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fhansen

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All true, except that the bottom line is, the Gospel is the work of God, from first to last. Somehow, you take man's 'absolute need' of God, to mean man can somehow, of his own, though enslaved to sin, somehow take onto himself, apart from the work of God, a nature of the flesh that has the integrity, will and understanding to save himself by 'taking the first step' toward God, as though God depends on man to do what only God can do.
No, I said the opposite of that. It's not either/or, but both/and. The initiative must come from God. But man can still refuse.
 
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zoidar

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We are reconciled (justified) after faith as long as we remain in our faith. Colossians 1:22-23

When do you think a person has fallen out of faith? I know there are people that have more or less turned back to their old life, yet still believe in Jesus.
 
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BNR32FAN

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When do you think a person has fallen out of faith? I know there are people that have more or less turned back to their old life, yet still believe in Jesus.

Honestly I don’t know and I believe there are probably many cases where us humans would not be able to know.
 
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Mark Quayle

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No He doesn't. And yet we must defend His gospel against distorted interpretations and misunderstandings of Scripture. He doesn't do it without us, even though He doesn't even need us at all to begin with. Kind of reminds me of Augustine in his Sermo 169:
"But He who made you without your consent does not justify you without your consent. He made you without your knowledge, but He does not justify you without you willing it.”
Let me put it a little differently. God does not ask for defense in this matter.

As for Augustine's statement, does the context indicate your consent and your willing it apart from the work of the indwelling Spirit of God?
 
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Mark Quayle

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We can't have it both ways. God may know that man will sin, and determine to allow and use that sin/evil for His ultimately good purposes (purposes which can only involve the human will, BTW), but He creates nothing that isn't good; He does not create men to be sinners.

Um, no. I'm saying that even brothers and sisters, along with the unredeemed, haven't yet necessarily "arrived". Their wills are still involved throughout their lives, obligated, as they are, to put to death the deeds of the flesh in order to gain eternal life. God's just always working on that-for our highest good.

The following passage from those you listed most accurately reflects the truth of man's fallen condition:

Man didn't assume a new nature at the Fall. Rather he "simply" became separated from God, and what he's left with is just what he foolishly bargained for: human nature where subjugation to and communion with his Creator is broken. It descends into chaos, disorder, injustice, sin. Man needs grace. Man needs God, or else he remains without hope. That's what we're here to learn-so we can make the right choice.

If you seek to understand the gospel better, which we always should do anyway, then you’ll come to understand that God’s whole purpose isn’t to just save a bunch of otherwise worthless wretches and damn the rest-all for His “glory”, but rather to bring man to a point of loving as He does. And love always involves choice, necessitating free will, or else it isn’t really love at all. Bringing up good children who reflect His goodness is the Father’s glory. Salvation involved more than Jesus coming, but also all the patient work that God did, including the historical human experience that resulted in the centuries prior to that advent, preparing man to make a choice, and to make that choice more firmly and continue to do so until its permanent, until man is finally, fully, bound to God as one teaching I’m familiar with puts it.
Been through this before.

But just as a reminder --according to Scripture: We are fallen creatures, by nature sinful and enemies of God. UNWILLING and UNABLE to submit.

"If you seek to understand the Gospel better ...then you'll come to understand that" it is the Work of God from first to last.
 
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Mark Quayle

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No, I said the opposite of that. It's not either/or, but both/and. The initiative must come from God. But man can still refuse.
God doesn't initiate. God regenerates. Man responds according to his new nature. When God regenerates, it is by the indwelling Spirit of God, and it cannot be undone.
 
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zoidar

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God doesn't initiate. God regenerates. Man responds according to his new nature. When God regenerates, it is by the indwelling Spirit of God, and it cannot be undone.

I believe I responded and then was regenerated (if it's rebirth we are talking about here), but I know that's not what you teach. I didn't have a new nature until God responded to my prayer for forgiveness. God bless! :)

But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”⁠—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes in Him will not be disappointed.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; for “Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
— Romans 10:8-13
 
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fhansen

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Been through this before.
It's ok-you'll get there.
But just as a reminder --according to Scripture: We are fallen creatures, by nature sinful and enemies of God. UNWILLING and UNABLE to submit.

"If you seek to understand the Gospel better ...then you'll come to understand that" it is the Work of God from first to last.
It's not my fault tho, if God wants to include me in His work. My dad used to do that too, and then increasingly so as I became older, so that I'd grow into my responsibilities rather than him doing it all for me. I couldn't even exist or survive without him, and yet, for my own good, he wanted me to choose the "right thing" along with him-as he did. So that I'd be worth something at the end of the day. In a very real way the story of creation, the fall, and redemption parallel such earth-born experiences.

The first thing for a man to learn is that he can do nothing apart from God. Adam missed that basic point. From there he needs to learn that God wants only the best for him; He wants man to want what He wants. Unless the will is involved man simply cannot be justified, because he cannot possibly possess and keep any justice or righteousness otherwise-he'd be incapable, just as he would also be non-culpable if he could not possibly will to do right- even as grace must seek to draw that will into rectitude.
 
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Mark Quayle

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It's not my fault tho, if God wants to include me in His work. My dad used to do that too, and then increasingly so as I became older, so that I'd grow into my responsibilities rather than him doing it all for me. I couldn't even exist or survive without him, and yet, for my own good, he wanted me to choose the "right thing" along with him-as he did. So that I'd be worth something at the end of the day. In a very real way the story of creation, the fall, and redemption parallel such earth-born experiences.
Your dad is not God. There's an extreme difference. In fact, a father hopes you will learn to get along without him. God wants you to learn what you started out to say in your next paragraph --that we can do nothing without him.

But yes, definitely, 'along with'. The problem comes when we get the notion that God needs us, and can't accomplish what he set out to do without our obedience and good works, as though he should be pleased that we deigned to help him out. 'Our works' plus 'his works', do not add up to more than 'his works'.

The first thing for a man to learn is that he can do nothing apart from God. Adam missed that basic point. From there he needs to learn that God wants only the best for him; He wants man to want what He wants. Unless the will is involved man simply cannot be justified, because he cannot possibly possess and keep any justice or righteousness otherwise-he'd be incapable, just as he would also be non-culpable if he could not possibly will to do right- even as grace must seek to draw that will into rectitude.
No matter how overwhelmingly the human will is involved, it is GOD's will (i.e. the work of the indwelling Spirit of God) that makes faith, repentance, obedience etc real. If those depend on me they are as useless as my intelligence, integrity, self-absorption, constancy of decision etc. Like you mentioned --"Apart from me you can do nothing"
 
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fhansen

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As for Augustine's statement, does the context indicate your consent and your willing it apart from the work of the indwelling Spirit of God?
Well, he certainly didn't bother saying all that to mean, "He who made you without your consent will not justify you without making you consent."
 
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Mark Quayle

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Well, he certainly didn't bother saying all that to mean, "He who made you without your consent will not justify you without making you consent."
I don't say he justifies without making you consent. He justifies the Elect. Through faith --consent??
 
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If they're given no choice but to believe/be regenerated, then...
Their WILL is changed. They have choice, but the choice is a result of regeneration, not the cause. You, like so many others, insist on a 'we vs God' mindset of responsibility to accomplish what God has decided to do. "We do this part -- God does that." That is a mistake.

The fact that God does it all does not mean we do nothing. We agonize, we wear ourselves out, we die daily. I like to say, 'he lets us watch', but that doesn't convey the intense activity of this 'watching'.

Regardless, Augustine is not scripture. Nor is he the Reformed Theology apostle. Neither is Calvin, for that matter.
 
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zoidar

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Their WILL is changed. They have choice, but the choice is a result of regeneration, not the cause. You, like so many others, insist on a 'we vs God' mindset of responsibility to accomplish what God has decided to do. "We do this part -- God does that." That is a mistake.

The fact that God does it all does not mean we do nothing. We agonize, we wear ourselves out, we die daily. I like to say, 'he lets us watch', but that doesn't convey the intense activity of this 'watching'.

Regardless, Augustine is not scripture. Nor is he the Reformed Theology apostle. Neither is Calvin, for that matter.

I'm curious what scripture you would use to show we are regenerated before we believe.
 
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