The most important message - Why trust us?

[_epoh_]

Hi to everyone reading this. I've recently began learning about Christianity. I believe a God exists and created us but I am seeking answers in relation to my skpeticism with Christianity.

I'll provide some background to my question first.

I've watched various debates between Christians v Muslims & Christians v Atheists. One of the most impressive for knowledge is Bart Ehrman and I'm disappointed that I can't find a debate on the resurrection between him and Gary Habermas because I really like both of them.

Some of the things that are brought up often in Ehrman debates are the changes and sometimes additional verses and stories to the Bible that weren't in the oldest known manuscripts, but are in the manuscripts that are carbon dated to be centuries later. This is also something that is acknowledged by other Christians, such as Mike Licona.

So to my question... We know that humans are prone to mistakes, dishonesty, corruption, and forgetting things.

Why would God trust humans, with the most imporant message mankind would ever receive, to hold that message and deliver it accurately to other civilisations of their own time and future generations without mistakes, changes, or corruptions?

Please bare in mind, I'm not attacking at all so if it comes across that way I apologise. Also, if anyone has any sources where scholars have answered this question already I'd really apprecaite it. I've tried searching google but I don't get much success when searching things about Christianity.

 

[Jonaitis]

I recommend looking into any resources from James White. He has debated Ehrman in the past. He is not only a profound scholar in textual criticism, with answers to very questions you have, but has participated in the translation committee of the New American Standard Bible. As a biblical scholar, he also teaches both Greek and Hebrew. I recommend looking further into his works, they will be of great benefit to you. Also, he often discusses such topics on his podcast "Dividing Line" that you can find on Youtube.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Why would God trust humans, with the most imporant message mankind would ever receive, to hold that message and deliver it accurately to other civilisations of their own time and future generations without mistakes, changes, or corruptions?

God did not trust humans...

He watched over the process and inspired His servants.

He made sure what we have is dependable and worthy of accountability.

No judge can act with fairness if the rules are not clear.

So we have the scripture - some read and believe His Word - some dont.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Hi to everyone reading this. I've recently began learning about Christianity. I believe a God exists and created us but I am seeking answers in relation to my skpeticism with Christianity.

I'll provide some background to my question first.

I've watched various debates between Christians v Muslims & Christians v Atheists. One of the most impressive for knowledge is Bart Ehrman and I'm disappointed that I can't find a debate on the resurrection between him and Gary Habermas because I really like both of them.

Some of the things that are brought up often in Ehrman debates are the changes and sometimes additional verses and stories to the Bible that weren't in the oldest known manuscripts, but are in the manuscripts that are carbon dated to be centuries later. This is also something that is acknowledged by other Christians, such as Mike Licona.

So to my question... We know that humans are prone to mistakes, dishonesty, corruption, and forgetting things.

Why would God trust humans, with the most imporant message mankind would ever receive, to hold that message and deliver it accurately to other civilisations of their own time and future generations without mistakes, changes, or corruptions?

Please bare in mind, I'm not attacking at all so if it comes across that way I apologise. Also, if anyone has any sources where scholars have answered this question already I'd really apprecaite it. I've tried searching google but I don't get much success when searching things about Christianity.

I believe that the Bible is the word of God. Yes humans may make some errors in passing a document down from one person to the next, maybe a small copy error or something similar. But generally, we need to be aware that "most" of the people translating these documents greatly feared God, and would not dare change anything.

I am confident that the Bible has not undergone any real "massive" corruption. From memory, I think there are around 5000 original fragments of the New Testament alone.

 

[Tolworth John]

I am seeking answers in relation to my skpeticism with Christianity.

The brutal simplicity is in the answer to one question.

' Did Jesus rise from the dead? '

As Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:14 if Christ is not raised from the dead we are still sinners and worse we are losing that he did rise.

No resurrection no Christianity, but the reverse is true, if Jesus did rise from the dead you have no excuse for not believing.

Every other objection, question etc is secondary to your response to this.

 

[disciple Clint]

Hi to everyone reading this. I've recently began learning about Christianity. I believe a God exists and created us but I am seeking answers in relation to my skpeticism with Christianity.

I'll provide some background to my question first.

I've watched various debates between Christians v Muslims & Christians v Atheists. One of the most impressive for knowledge is Bart Ehrman and I'm disappointed that I can't find a debate on the resurrection between him and Gary Habermas because I really like both of them.

Some of the things that are brought up often in Ehrman debates are the changes and sometimes additional verses and stories to the Bible that weren't in the oldest known manuscripts, but are in the manuscripts that are carbon dated to be centuries later. This is also something that is acknowledged by other Christians, such as Mike Licona.

So to my question... We know that humans are prone to mistakes, dishonesty, corruption, and forgetting things.

Why would God trust humans, with the most imporant message mankind would ever receive, to hold that message and deliver it accurately to other civilisations of their own time and future generations without mistakes, changes, or corruptions?

Please bare in mind, I'm not attacking at all so if it comes across that way I apologise. Also, if anyone has any sources where scholars have answered this question already I'd really apprecaite it. I've tried searching google but I don't get much success when searching things about Christianity.

Simple, Jesus did not just go away, He sent the Holy Spirit to inspire the writers of the N.T. so that it would be accurate.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Hi to everyone reading this. I've recently began learning about Christianity. I believe a God exists and created us but I am seeking answers in relation to my skpeticism with Christianity.

I'll provide some background to my question first.

I've watched various debates between Christians v Muslims & Christians v Atheists. One of the most impressive for knowledge is Bart Ehrman and I'm disappointed that I can't find a debate on the resurrection between him and Gary Habermas because I really like both of them.

Some of the things that are brought up often in Ehrman debates are the changes and sometimes additional verses and stories to the Bible that weren't in the oldest known manuscripts, but are in the manuscripts that are carbon dated to be centuries later. This is also something that is acknowledged by other Christians, such as Mike Licona.

So to my question... We know that humans are prone to mistakes, dishonesty, corruption, and forgetting things.

Why would God trust humans, with the most imporant message mankind would ever receive, to hold that message and deliver it accurately to other civilisations of their own time and future generations without mistakes, changes, or corruptions?

Please bare in mind, I'm not attacking at all so if it comes across that way I apologise. Also, if anyone has any sources where scholars have answered this question already I'd really apprecaite it. I've tried searching google but I don't get much success when searching things about Christianity.

The heart of the Christian religion is the confession that God became man. God has come and become part of the human story.

And in that human story God is always present with, and acting in the midst of, and working through regular, ordinary, just as fallible as you or me people.

The climax of that human story is the Incarnation, Jesus Christ, God become flesh; His life, death, resurrection, and coming again.

Jesus could have left a book for us to read, but He didn't. God's Word, God's Revelation, has never been a text, a book, etc; but rather a concrete flesh-and-blood person.

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the word was God ... and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory of God's only-begotten Son" - John 1:1, John 1:14

So God's revelation is personal. God meets man where man is. God meets us where we are. We don't go up to God, God comes down to us. God meets us in our weakness, our sin, our shame, and our death--God becomes part of that in order to heal it.

And, as always, God chose to use regular, fallible, sinful people. That through this Church Jesus established He Himself would continue to present Himself to the world, through Word and Sacrament. That is, through the preaching of the Gospel and the Sacraments (Baptism, Communion, etc).

It's important to keep in mind that before any book of the New Testament was written, before there was anything even called a Bible, there was a believing people.

The Bible is a product of Christian faith in practice among real people in history. The works that make up the New Testament were written by members of those believing communities of Christians; and the books were assembled, received, and passed down as sacred writing to be read and confessed in the context of believing, worshiping Christians as part of that living Christian faith.

The message has always been the same, not because the Bible has been miraculously preserved as some heavenly tome dropped out of heaven; but because we can look at what the Christian faithful have been saying and believing for two thousand years. The New Testament is part of that history, the initial story at its beginning with Christ, His public ministry, and calling a group of disciples to teach them--who would then go on to spread His word elsewhere. Recorded in the New Testament, yes, and also clearly evidenced by the existence of practicing Christian communities in antiquity. So we have the Didache (written c. 60-120 AD), the Epistle of Clement (90 AD), the letters of Ignatius of Antioch (105-110 AD) all just as old or even older than some books of the New Testament, as well as writings following, such as the writings of Polycarp and Justin (140-160 AD), Irenaeus (c. 180 AD), Tertullian, Hippolytus, Origen, and many, many, many more.

As I've studied history, I have become convinced that there has, indeed, been a continuous teaching of the same apostolic, Christian faith that goes all the way right back to Jesus and His group of disciples walking around Galilee and Judea. The Jesus of the Creeds is the Jesus of history.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[mmarco]

Hi to everyone reading this. I've recently began learning about Christianity. I believe a God exists and created us but I am seeking answers in relation to my skpeticism with Christianity.

I think that the strongest argument supporting the divine nature of Christ is that the christian concept of God and of divine love is the highest possible concept. I find that the idea itself that God loves us so much that He chose to assume the human nature and accepted to suffer crucifission in order to save us, expresses such a high concept of God and of divine love that it can comes only from God and it is certainly a truth. This concept is fully convincing for me, it proves itself by itself and makes superfluous any other arguments . I believe that Chirst suffered His Passion to help us to have faith in Him and trust Him, to make us understand that God loves us infinitely, that God is good and merciful, that God is near to us and that we are so precious for Him so that we may totally trust Him, open our heart to Him and let Him change our existence in true life and true love.
The christian faith is unique because it gives a very concrete and unique meaning to the concept of divine love: in fact God’s love actualizes in the acceptance of a terrible physical suffering; the God of the christian faith loves us so much that He is willing to suffer a painful death in order to save us from a sinful existence. In the christian faith, love is not only a theoretical and vague concept; Christ’s Passion is a clear and concrete realization of the concept of divine love which teaches us what the true meaning of love is.

 

[aiki]

So to my question... We know that humans are prone to mistakes, dishonesty, corruption, and forgetting things.

Why would God trust humans, with the most imporant message mankind would ever receive, to hold that message and deliver it accurately to other civilisations of their own time and future generations without mistakes, changes, or corruptions?

Please bare in mind, I'm not attacking at all so if it comes across that way I apologise. Also, if anyone has any sources where scholars have answered this question already I'd really apprecaite it. I've tried searching google but I don't get much success when searching things about Christianity.

As many Christian apologists point out, the massive, early proliferation of copies of various portions of the Bible has allowed the Bible to escape the control of a single organization that, having seized total control of all copies, could then redact the Bible as it suited them to do and limit access to the earliest (and presumably most accurate) versions of it. Rather than an elite few ordering our access to the Bible, as the Roman Catholic Church tried for centuries to do, murdering those who made copies of the Bible for public distribution, God saw to it that an enormous number of ancient copies of Scripture were made, ensuring its eventual global public distribution.

The huge (roughly twenty-five thousand) number of ancient copies of various parts of the New Testament creates a pool of manuscript data from which to double-check, and cross-check, and verify the accuracy of these ancient copies of the NT. Being able to do this, results in a very high degree of certainty in the accuracy of the translation of the NT we read today. Bart Ehrman only knows there are copyist errors because there is such a large array of extant ancient manuscript copies by which to see that such errors occurred (and by which corrections to those errors is made possible).

See: www.crossexamined.org
www.str.org
www.reasonablefaith.org

 

[_epoh_]

Thank you guys for the responses. I'm checking each piece of information you're all providing and I'm listening to new debates and discussions each day. I have another question regarding the death and resurrection.

If Jesus knew he was going to die and then rise again days later, how is it a sactifice?

I have some thoughts on why and how, but I'm also wanting thoughts and views from those with more experience and knowledge than me.

Thanks again.

 

[disciple Clint]

Thank you guys for the responses. I'm checking each piece of information you're all providing and I'm listening to new debates and discussions each day. I have another question regarding the death and resurrection.

If Jesus knew he was going to die and then rise again days later, how is it a sactifice?

I have some thoughts on why and how, but I'm also wanting thoughts and views from those with more experience and knowledge than me.

Thanks again.

Would it be an ordeal to take on your soul all the sins of the world, past, present, and future? Would it be a sacrifice to die as Jesus died? Would it be a sacrifice to be God but humble yourself to become a man?

 

[coffee4u]

Hi to everyone reading this. I've recently began learning about Christianity. I believe a God exists and created us but I am seeking answers in relation to my skpeticism with Christianity.

I'll provide some background to my question first.

I've watched various debates between Christians v Muslims & Christians v Atheists. One of the most impressive for knowledge is Bart Ehrman and I'm disappointed that I can't find a debate on the resurrection between him and Gary Habermas because I really like both of them.

Some of the things that are brought up often in Ehrman debates are the changes and sometimes additional verses and stories to the Bible that weren't in the oldest known manuscripts, but are in the manuscripts that are carbon dated to be centuries later. This is also something that is acknowledged by other Christians, such as Mike Licona.

You won't find God through knowledge or reason. Listening to a debate satisfies your intellect, your mind. It's possible that God could use it but if your aim is to 'learn more about which position sounds best/makes sense/has most evidence' then you will find nothing. Nothing except more head knowledge.

You find God through your spirit connecting to him. God is spirit so you meet him in spirit.

So to my question... We know that humans are prone to mistakes, dishonesty, corruption, and forgetting things.

They are, which is why people will always disappoint you.

Why would God trust humans, with the most imporant message mankind would ever receive, to hold that message and deliver it accurately to other civilisations of their own time and future generations without mistakes, changes, or corruptions?

God did not trust humans. Yes human scribes wrote down what God wanted written down but God was at the wheel.

2 Timothy 3:16-17



16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Hebrews 4:12 ►
For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.

No man made book has that power.

 

[coffee4u]

T
If Jesus knew he was going to die and then rise again days later, how is it a sactifice?

He suffered the same physical pain that any man would but he also suffered spiritually. Every person's sins were placed on him. But lets say that it was 'just death', do you find the idea of dying nailed to a piece of wood from asphyxiation something easy? Even if you know you were coming back, that still wouldn't negate the physical pain you went through.

 

[_epoh_]

He suffered the same physical pain that any man would but he also suffered spiritually. Every person's sins were placed on him. But lets say that it was 'just death', do you find the idea of dying nailed to a piece of wood from asphyxiation something easy? Even if you know you were coming back, that still wouldn't negate the physical pain you went through.

That's true. It's kind of the answer I came up with as well the next day after thinking about it. The humiliation, pain, torture. Then the followers willing to go through the same thing to stand by their beliefs and experiences after the crucifixion.

I'm seeing it a lot differently than I used to, but it's still early days. I've read parts of the Bible, I'm going to begin reading the Gospel and pray that I can do it with an open mind.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Thank you guys for the responses. I'm checking each piece of information you're all providing and I'm listening to new debates and discussions each day. I have another question regarding the death and resurrection.

If Jesus knew he was going to die and then rise again days later, how is it a sactifice?

I have some thoughts on why and how, but I'm also wanting thoughts and views from those with more experience and knowledge than me.

Thanks again.

The matter here is largely the way "sacrifice" is used in English, we often mean "sacrifice" as a way of speaking of losing something permanently for a reason. So, if I sacrifice part of my income, I'm giving up that income and it's gone forever.

The word translated as "sacrifice" in the Bible means "victim", "something slaughtered". Jesus' sacrifice is His becoming victim of the cross, being slaughtered by the Roman authorities.

This language is, in the New Testament, attached very strongly to the language of ritual sacrifice in Judaism, Jesus is described as "the Lamb of God that takes away the sins of the world", for example. The language of the Passover lamb--the lamb that is ritually slaughtered for Passover in Judaism--is appropriated to Jesus and His slaughter at the hands of the Romans.

Jesus is the sacrifice for sins in that by His becoming the slaughtered victim of the Roman State, His death accomplishes an act of reconciliation for the world. Even as His resurrection means the defeat of hell and the devil, and the victory over death by resurrection which is given to the world. So that, the one who is in Christ who suffered, died, and rose again has, with Christ, died and been raised to new life.

It's a sacrifice because Jesus became a sacrifice, a victim; more than that, we say He became the Victim. So St. Augustine of Hippo would say that Christ is Victor quia Victima, "A Victor, because a Victim". The point of Jesus' atoning work is victory over sin, death, hell, and the devil; that victory is won not by a show of military force but by His own self-offering of His life and participation in death with us, even the shameful death of the Roman cross, for the express purpose of swallowing up death in the victory of His resurrection. And thus Jesus, as the "first fruits" of the resurrection, means that since He has been raised, then we too shall be raised. Literally, history will reach its conclusion, Jesus will return, and the dead shall be raised, and God will renew the whole of creation.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[_epoh_]

Thank you for the answers and responses.

I also think the torture and humiliation would be something that nobody of this world could handle without resentment, so that in itself makes the crucifixion remarkable.

I feel I need to be very thorough in my investigation because if I become Christian, I would want to first know and understand why I believe.

Another question I have is:

Why would God create a son to die in sacrifice for sinners when judgement of sin and it's punishment are His decision?

He can decide to forgive or not, without creating a kind of loophole to his own rules. He's the one to hold us to account for our sins, or not.

 

[mmarco]

Another question I have is:

Why would God create a son to die in sacrifice for sinners when judgement of sin and it's punishment are His decision?

He can decide to forgive or not, without creating a kind of loophole to his own rules. He's the one to hold us to account for our sins, or not.

First of all, Christ has not been created by God; God eternally exists in the Person of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.
I think that your question is the most important question, so let me give you my personal answer.
I believe that God loves us infinitely, and He desires to lead each of us to the true life and true happiness, a condition existing only in communion with God. You must understand that evil and sin are totally incompatible with God's good and holy nature; therefore , we cannot be in communion with God as long as sin and evil passions are inside us. A deep interior change is then necessary for all of us to be in communion with God and reach the eternal happiness; we must be sanctified and purified from all our evil and sinful desires and passions. So, the problem is not merely a forgiveness, but a deep change of our most intimeate self. God has the power to change us and santify us but He wants to do that with our consent. In fact God has chosen to create man with a free will, He wants to respect our free will. Man cannot really accept to be changed by God and he cannot be in comunion with God as long as even a shadow of doubt and distrust remains in his heart ( it must be stressed that such a distrust may exist even without the man is aware of it, at the unconscious level).

In order to destroy every shadow of doubt and distrust in our heart, God has chosen to give us the greatest proof of love that may exist: Christ's Passion. Christ's Passion has redeemed us and reconciled us to God because it has uprooted from our heart our distrust and doubts about God's love; it has satisfied our (conscious or unconscious) desire and need of a proof of love, so that it has given us the strength to trust God and feel loved by Him. Through the strength of His painful Passion, the Lord comunicates to us the certainty of His infinite goodness and assures us about His infinite love towards us.
I believe that Christ suffered His Passion to help us to have faith in Him and trust Him, to make us understand that He loves us infinitely, that He is good and mercifull and that He is near to us so that we may open our heart to Him, be in communion with Him and be saved.

 

[_epoh_]

First of all, Christ has not been created by God; God eternally exists in the Person of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.
I think that your question is the most important question, so let me give you my personal answer.
I believe that God loves us infinitely, and He desires to lead each of us to the true life and true happiness, a condition existing only in communion with God. You must understand that evil and sin are totally incompatible with God's good and holy nature; therefore , we cannot be in communion with God as long as sin and evil passions are inside us. A deep interior change is then necessary for all of us to be in communion with God and reach the eternal happiness; we must be sanctified and purified from all our evil and sinful desires and passions. So, the problem is not merely a forgiveness, but a deep change of our most intimeate self. God has the power to change us and santify us but He wants to do that with our consent. In fact God has chosen to create man with a free will, He wants to respect our free will. Man cannot really accept to be changed by God and he cannot be in comunion with God as long as even a shadow of doubt and distrust remains in his heart ( it must be stressed that such a distrust may exist even without the man is aware of it, at the unconscious level).

In order to destroy every shadow of doubt and distrust in our heart, God has chosen to give us the greatest proof of love that may exist: Christ's Passion. Christ's Passion has redeemed us and reconciled us to God because it has uprooted from our heart our distrust and doubts about God's love; it has satisfied our (conscious or unconscious) desire and need of a proof of love, so that it has given us the strength to trust God and feel loved by Him. Through the strength of His painful Passion, the Lord comunicates to us the certainty of His infinite goodness and assures us about His infinite love towards us.
I believe that Christ suffered His Passion to help us to have faith in Him and trust Him, to make us understand that He loves us infinitely, that He is good and mercifull and that He is near to us so that we may open our heart to Him, be in communion with Him and be saved.

Thank you for your reply.

My thoughts are that as humans we understand giving your own life to protect or save others as being the "ultimate sacrifice" as it's called. So we as humans can relate to that sacrifice.

The part that I don't understand is, why was it necessary?

If it's to save us from evil, as in the Lord's prayer, and satan is the ultimate evil. Then sacrificing himself / his son to save us from the evil of satan, would imply that satan has some kind of power that God cannot prevent or that satan has some kind of power over God.

If not, then it still leaves me wondering.. Why the creator of the rules, who holds us accountable for out willingness to obey those rules, would need to create a method to prevent us from being punished, by Him, for not following those rules. Instead of providing some other signs and giving humankind the guidence of, praise me and you'll be rewarded, deny me and you won't. The eye witnesses of the time have the advantage of seeing things for themselves, whereas we must rely on what has been passed through generations and translated.

As I said in previous posts, I don't mean to be difficult or provokative, I need to know and understand before I can really believe otherwise I fear my belief may not stand strong when questioned.

 

[disciple Clint]

Thank you for the answers and responses.

I also think the torture and humiliation would be something that nobody of this world could handle without resentment, so that in itself makes the crucifixion remarkable.

I feel I need to be very thorough in my investigation because if I become Christian, I would want to first know and understand why I believe.

Another question I have is:

Why would God create a son to die in sacrifice for sinners when judgement of sin and it's punishment are His decision?

He can decide to forgive or not, without creating a kind of loophole to his own rules. He's the one to hold us to account for our sins, or not.

No He can not because that would not be justice.

 

[mmarco]

Thank you for your reply.

My thoughts are that as humans we understand giving your own life to protect or save others as being the "ultimate sacrifice" as it's called. So we as humans can relate to that sacrifice.

The part that I don't understand is, why was it necessary?

As I said in my previous post, I think that Christ's Passion was necessary in order to convince us that God really loves us, it was necessary to make us understand that God is infinitely good and that He is near to us, it was then necesary to make us to have faith and trust God entirely.

If it's to save us from evil, as in the Lord's prayer, and satan is the ultimate evil. Then sacrificing himself / his son to save us from the evil of satan, would imply that satan has some kind of power that God cannot prevent or that satan has some kind of power over God.

No, Satan has no power over God; the point is that God has chosen to create us with a free will; therefore He does not want to sanctify us without our consent and we cannot freely consent God to sanctifying us if we do not trust Him entirely. Christ's Passion was then necessary for us to trust God entirely and consequently, to be saved from evil and sin. In fact we can be saved from evil and sin only if we are in full communion with God, and we can be in full communion with God only if we consent God to sanctifying us.

If not, then it still leaves me wondering.. Why the creator of the rules, who holds us accountable for out willingness to obey those rules, would need to create a method to prevent us from being punished, by Him, for not following those rules.

You are focusing on a wrong point; in fact, the point is not to prevent us from being punished, but to save us from a sinful existence and lead us to a holy life in full communion with God.