A forever hell

Basil the Great

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I'm starting to think that heaven and hell is right here on earth. And Hell is for those who can't find heaven.
I think anyone who is suffering from depression knows what I mean.
Fortunately for me, my depression started about two years ago so it hasn't been a lifelong thing like it has for some. But still, this is mental agony and it just never stops.
There is much true in what you say. For some people on Earth, they are hurting so much from either physical and/or emotional pain, that they are experiencing a form of Hell on Earth. I have fought depression, though it has been several decades now, but it is one sad experience. I am thinking more now though about the several family members and friends who fight significant physical pain on a daily and hourly basis.
 
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KisKatte

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What He said I wrote 7 papers full about what He said to me. I wanted to jump from 14th floor and He started talking to me, holding my head with light, so He left no doubt He is talking to me with a voice from Heaven. I can share it privately but only write down a short version. Because for the full version I wrote down I would have to translate it first from russian to english. I can tell it to you in private conversation. And to anybody who wants.
 
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KisKatte

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There is much true in what you say. For some people on Earth, they are hurting so much from either physical and/or emotional pain, that they are experiencing a form of Hell on Earth. I have fought depression, though it has been several decades now, but it is one sad experience. I am thinking more now though about the several family members and friends who fight significant physical pain on a daily and hourly basis.
I suffer from shizophrenie and depression and I know that every happy hour I have is a present from God. And it is very frightening when His Grace leaves me again and again.
 
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Lazarus Short

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The dead are first delivered up out of death and hell in Rev 20:13. That happens before death and hell are shown cast into the Lake of fire (which is the second death)

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

So now the dead which are delivered up out of death and hell (which are no more but in the lake of fire) are alive (delivered out of both). So there is no more death and hell in the for ever and ever sense of those, but now there are those (which were dead) delivered out of death and of these it also says

Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Just as it says here

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Rev 20:14 isnt the end all there.

No, the end is in First Corinthians 15:28, where God the Father becomes All in all. At this point, Death has been destroyed, so no one is dead and/or in Hell. It makes perfect sense to me. Now speaking of fire and brimstone (sulfur), I had a growing sense of what I have come to call "Godfire." I checked my Concordance to find all mentions of words having to do with fire, and found that there is NO Hellfire in the Bible, but only natural fire and Godfire, for fire is part of His Nature. Therefore, when some are relegated to the Lake of Fire, it is have their tares, chaff, wood, hay and stubble burned away, to be refined, purified and even transformed by the Fire of God.

Remember:

He who is dead is freed from his sins. Compare this with the Law of the Jubilee.

Jesus will lose nothing of what His Father gave him.

God the Father gave Jesus everything, even the entire Cosmos. Jesus will not return it to His Father until Death is defeated.

Jesus is the Savior. He saves all, the entire Cosmos (and us!).
 
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Der Alte

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Der Alte you have a gift for filling spaces my friend. Unfortunately your thesis that 'aionian' means 'eternal' is not quite correct. As well as the various translations in the NT to 'world', 'age' and 'eternal', we can look to the usage de jour. So take the Nicene Creed for example, as in the Common Book of Prayer, the last lines:e look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. Amen.
This is the usual void heterodox argument. I quoted 28 verses which define or describe aionios as eternal, verses which you totally ignore. Then you quote only one verse and claim, with nothing but your unsupported opinion, that one verse supersedes every other verse in the NT.
In '62 I was stationed in Germany I was talking to a friend, in German, she used a word I did not understand "beinahe." I said I did not understand it so she defined it for me. "Es is noch nicht elf uhr aber es ist beinahe elf uhr." "It is not yet eleven o'clock but it is almost eleven o'clock."
That is what I have done with the word "aionios" 24 times. No scholars, no dictionaries, no lexicons using only the words associated with "aionios" in the NT.
One usage of the word "aionios" which is clearly figurative does NOT define the word.

So the aionian fire is unending, but the stay in it is only temporary - just until we get purified and overcome, leave behind the contemptible corrupt flesh for the worms to convert to good soil, and head on through the ever-open Pearly Gates for some good ol' worship and a shot of healing eau de vie.

I will wait for you to show me one verse, 2 or more would be better, in Rev. which states that anyone or anything will be released from the LOF.

So Matt 25:48 is warning us that we don't want to wake up to a next world of discipline, yes it could be eternal if we're unable to overcome. And the longer we resist God and cling to our own works and stubborn beliefs, the longer we'll experience the pain and time it will take to find Zoe. 'Just a taste of that water for my burning tongue,' croaks Richie.
Meaningless obfuscation which does not address or refute anything I posted.
 
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Lukaris

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I think in the past many Christians taught a guaranteed damnation and now some teach a guaranteed redemption. I believe St. Paul pretty much outlines much of the human, sinful condition in Romans 1, Romans 2, & Romans 3. Romans 2 seems extremely important in that it distinguishes that individuals vary in being prone to good or evil. The Lord speaks of the state of the individual within His acts of redemption in John 3:16-21, John 5:22-30 etc. for ex.

Next to those who believed & were saved there is a judgment of those whose deeds were approved of or not by the Lord. The thing is we cannot give false assurance to a non believer; how can we even consider universalism as a concept? Yes, the good includes the Christian & non Christian but only God knows ( again per John 5:22-30 etc.).
 
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Der Alte

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I think in the past many Christians taught a guaranteed damnation and now some teach a guaranteed redemption. I believe St. Paul pretty much outlines much of the human, sinful condition in Romans 1, Romans 2, & Romans 3. Romans 2 seems extremely important in that it distinguishes that individuals vary in being prone to good or evil. The Lord speaks of the state of the individual within His acts of redemption in John 3:16-21, John 5:22-30 etc. for ex.
Next to those who believed & were saved there is a judgment of those whose deeds were approved of or not by the Lord. The thing is we cannot give false assurance to a non believer; how can we even consider universalism as a concept? Yes, the good includes the Christian & non Christian but only God knows ( again per John 5:22-30 etc.).
Paul does not support universal reconciliation.
1 Corinthians 6:9-10
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:19-21
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Ephesian 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
1 Corinthians 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
 
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Lukaris

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Paul does not support universal reconciliation.
1 Corinthians 6:9-10
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:19-21
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Ephesian 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
1 Corinthians 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

I know that is why I said how can universalism even be considered as a concept?
 
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Der Alte

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I know that is why I said how can universalism even be considered as a concept?
Yes I understood that. Just thought I would add these verses for those who don't agree.
My observation UR is never clearly stated but its adherents infer it from certain proof texts.
 
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Lukaris

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Yes I understood that. Just thought I would add these verses for those who don't agree.
My observation UR is never clearly stated but its adherents infer it from certain proof texts.

Understood, thanks.
 
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Revelation 15:4 is talking about what's left of the nations and what's left of the people in them, after the wrath of God was finished and/or over, and many many people died, etc, and it does not say that those ones were even repentant, or needed to repent (although they probably were, etc) but my point is your saying it, and people like you saying it, when it is just simply "not there", etc, because that's exactly what you have to do to make universalist narrative/doctrine make sense, etc, and be in line with the rest of the Bible, etc...

I'm sorry that you blame me for your elementary comprehension difficulties my friend. Rev 15:4 says 'all the nations will come'. It's more of 'all the nations will be blessed', 'every knee will bow', 'God will be all in all', 'the restoration of all things', 'Jesus saviour of the world', 'Glad tidings for all mankind' and many many others.

Now it's a scurrilously false rendering to read down the text to 'God will be all in the remnant', or 'all the nations' leftovers will come'. That's not what the Bible says at all, and to subtract from the Book like that undermines the glory of God, it's just a fake news cowardly and pusillanimous reading that sucks the lifeblood out of God's great promises of salvation and is really quite blasphemous.

For if a man think himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceiveth himself. (Gal 6:3)
 
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Saint Steven

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Der Alte you have a gift for filling spaces my friend. Unfortunately your thesis that 'aionian' means 'eternal' is not quite correct. As well as the various translations in the NT to 'world', 'age' and 'eternal', we can look to the usage de jour.
This might help.

Aionios mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in Matthew 25:46.

All these verses below use the same NT Greek word, "aionios", the Greek word mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in Matthew 25:46. See bold below. This shows that "aionios" cannot mean eternal or everlasting.

Matthew 13:22
The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful.

Romans 12:2
Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.

1 Corinthians 1:20
Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?

1 Corinthians 2:8
None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Ephesians 2:2
in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.

Compare: Matthew 12:32; Mark 10:30; Luke 18:30; Luke 20:35; Ephesians 1:21

Luke 18:29-30
“Truly I tell you,” Jesus said to them, “no one who has left home or wife or brothers or sisters or parents or children for the sake of the kingdom of God 30 will fail to receive many times as much in this age, and in the age to come eternal life.”

Aionios, the Greek word translated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in the Bible (eternal hell?)
 
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That is what I have done with the word "aionios" 24 times. No scholars, no dictionaries, no lexicons using only the words associated with "aionios" in the NT.

Bloviation der Alte. You've 'assumed the consequent', and rendered those translations as 'eternal' without resort to their proper context. The true translation of 'aion' is an undefined (usually long) but determinate timeframe. However, the age to come will be without end, as also reflected in the Nicene Creed.

Now you can quibble with the first and second Ecumenical Councils if you wish, but I'll stick with the Cappadochians over the Der Altetonians on this occasion, thank you.
 
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This might help.

Aionios mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in Matthew 25:46.

All these verses below use the same NT Greek word, "aionios", the Greek word mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in Matthew 25:46. See bold below. This shows that "aionios" cannot mean eternal or everlasting.

Matthew 13:22
The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful.

Romans 12:2
Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.

1 Corinthians 1:20
Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?

1 Corinthians 2:8
None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Ephesians 2:2
in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.

Compare: Matthew 12:32; Mark 10:30; Luke 18:30; Luke 20:35; Ephesians 1:21

Luke 18:29-30
“Truly I tell you,” Jesus said to them, “no one who has left home or wife or brothers or sisters or parents or children for the sake of the kingdom of God 30 will fail to receive many times as much in this age, and in the age to come eternal life.”

Aionios, the Greek word translated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in the Bible (eternal hell?)

Very good, thanks Steve.

How did you like the refs to the Nicene Creed in support? The Anglican church has always rendered aionios as 'world to come' and another Greek word/ expression is used for world 'without end'.
 
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Saint Steven

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The thing is we cannot give false assurance to a non believer; how can we even consider universalism as a concept?
Ultimate Redemption (UR) does not teach that unbelievers are saved. But that they will be. (a fine distinction, to be sure)

Anyone who has knees to bow and a tongue to speak, in heaven and on earth and under the earth (in the realm of the dead), will whole-heartedly, and without reservation, acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord. No one can say that “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit. If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” you will be saved. Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. (the reason for the bodily resurrection)

Philippians 2:10-11
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

1 Corinthians 12:3
Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says,
“Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

Romans 10:9
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart
that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Romans 14:9
For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that
he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

Note on "acknowledge" in Philippians 2:11 from Strong's Concordance
S1843 eksomologéō (from 1537 /ek, "wholly out from," intensifying 3670 /homologéō, "say the same thing about") – properly, fully agree and to acknowledge that agreement openly (whole-heartedly); hence, to confess ("openly declare"), without reservation (no holding back).

Further reading: (Isaiah 45:23, Romans 14:11, Philippians 2:10, Revelation 15:4)
 
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Yes I understood that. Just thought I would add these verses for those who don't agree.
My observation UR is never clearly stated but its adherents infer it from certain proof texts.

Question for you: you keep posting long, sermon-like texts in which you go to great lengths to try to prove that aionios means "eternal." If that is so, how then did the Greek speaking Fathers of the Early Church in any way, shape, or form come to the conclusion that Universal Reconciliation is true? You are not a native Greek speaker as they are. You have been trained to believe certain things about the Greek language some 2,000 years removed from those who actually spoke it and understood the context in which this word appeared.

When we are talking about men like St. Gregory Nyssa, St. Isaac Syria, St. Maximos the Confessor, we are speaking of some of the most revered men in the Orthodox Church. How did they miss what you so insistently state is so clear?

The other question you have never even addressed is Creatio Ex Nihlo as David Bentley Hart has expressed it in his first meditation of THAT ALL SHALL BE SAVED. Simply put, protology is eschatology, that is, all things are created to an end (telos). If eternal hell is true, then it means that God created mankind towards that end, or at least a great portion of them. And as has been pointed out here, if that is so, then God is not love, but a monster of the most horrible depravity. Only a depraved mind would create sentient beings for the sole purpose of them being tortured, tormented, and suffering horribly forever. Our loving heavenly Father, who IS love, would never do such a thing.

Eternal torment comes from the darkened minds of men who have created an idol and worship it in place of the true and living God. All your esoteric explantions (which are probably wrong) are straw compared to the one fact that God is love. Mankind is in darkness and has no idea what that means.
 
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This might help.

Aionios mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in Matthew 25:46.

All these verses below use the same NT Greek word, "aionios", the Greek word mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in Matthew 25:46. See bold below. This shows that "aionios" cannot mean eternal or everlasting.

Matthew 13:22
The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful.

Romans 12:2
Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.

1 Corinthians 1:20
Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?

1 Corinthians 2:8
None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Ephesians 2:2
in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.

Compare: Matthew 12:32; Mark 10:30; Luke 18:30; Luke 20:35; Ephesians 1:21

Luke 18:29-30
“Truly I tell you,” Jesus said to them, “no one who has left home or wife or brothers or sisters or parents or children for the sake of the kingdom of God 30 will fail to receive many times as much in this age, and in the age to come eternal life.”

Aionios, the Greek word translated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in the Bible (eternal hell?)

In addition, aionios is an ADJECTIVE, and the intent and meaning of adjectives is defined by the noun they define. Example: a tall dog, a tall man, a tall tree, and a tall Empire State Building. Does the word "tall" carry the same connotation in each of these descriptions. Does a tall dog mean a 50 foot tall dog like the tall tree?

Dr. Illaria Ramelli states that this is the context of proper understanding of aionios, that only when it refers to something that is by its nature eternal can it mean eternal. The "aionios" God is not the same as "aionios" life, especially in the Matthian verses which refer to the age which is about to come. Matthew 24 and 25 are speaking about the coming destruction of Jerusalem and the coming new age which will replace the old age that is being destroyed with Jerusalem. Therefore, in that context, the "aionios" life being spoken of is the "age-lasting" life that is being promised to all who will repent and turn to Christ before Jerusalem is destroyed and the age comes to an end.

What I really can't fathom though, is how people are so determined that God's chastizements must last forever, and how horrified they appear to be that God actually is both love and mercy. You would think that the Good News of forgiveness would make people want to rejoice in it rather than be upset that Dante's Cruel Palace of Tortures is not real.
 
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CleanSoul

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How can you think God will punish forever?

Serious sin, or mortal sin, is eternal if the person who committed the sin does not receive forgiveness from God by the time they die. The sin still exists, and is eternal. And it does not exist in time and space, just as God does not exist in time and space, He is eternal. So that person would be in an eternal hell by their own choosing because of their unforgiven, serious sin. They chose to turn away from God, and did not seek forgiveness up to, and including, the point of death.
 
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Yes I understood that. Just thought I would add these verses for those who don't agree.
My observation UR is never clearly stated but its adherents infer it from certain proof texts.

Your 'selective' observations der Alte. Every knee, God all in all, Jesus saviour of all men, the gospel good news for all, every nation worships, Jesus the omega...and so on and so forth.

Have you checked to see if you only have the abridged infernal Bible, which only contains accounts like the 5 kings being strung up and Canaanites being rousted? There's more to it der Alte, the good news is that every heart melts when confronted by God.
 
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They chose to turn away from God, and did not seek forgiveness up to, and including, the point of death.

So the young rape victim who suicides blaming Jesus for not saving her from her ordeal is therefore consigned to burn in hell forever? Hope I don't get you as a judge on my next parking ticket lol.
 
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