Where DO people get the "secret rapture" doctrine from?

[Aldebaran]

Stephen saw heaven, you are adding to scripture to think he went there.

The 'rapture to heaven' theory is not a serious wrong belief, but it makes for complacency and leaves one without any clue as to what will really happen. This is not how we should be, we have been given all the
detailed Plans of God for our future.

Couldn't it also be a source of comfort, knowing that God will not make his people endure the Great Tribulation, which I believe is referenced somewhere else in scripture as the time of Jacob's Trouble? Why would God make the church go through that?

 

[sovereigngrace]

I would like to know what basic Eschatological viewpoints you hold to before we engage in such a discussion.

Are you more Pre-Trib, Mid Trib, or Post Trib?
Is there a Rapture of some kind?
If so, does living holy after being saved by God's grace play a part in being taken?
Do you believe in a literal 1,000 year reign of Christ (i.e. the Millennium)?
Do you believe there will be an antichrist/beast and a mark enforced upon people?
Is Christ's appearance of sitting upon the throne (Revelation 6:16) a separate event from the Second Coming (Revelation 19) or do you see it tied to the same timing of the Second Coming?
How do you count the seals, trumpet, and bowl judgments?
Are they counted in order or do you think they overlap?
Does Daniel 9 (the 70th week) play a part in the overall picture of your End Times Chronology?

To give you an idea of what I believe, here is my End Times Chronology here at CF:

Pre-Trib Only - My New End Times Chronology

If there is anything that I write that you disagree with or that you aren't sure about, please do not hesitate to ask for biblical support. Ultimately, that is all that matters.

I am Posttrib. I believe in one final future literal all-consummating coming of Christ. I believe there is a literal catching away (rescue) of all of the saints before the total and immediate wholesale destruction of all the wicked. The saints in total from throughout time will be glorified together at this climactic event.

Daniel 9

I believe the whole thrust of Daniel 9 is pointing to Israel’s coming Messiah. Through His first Advent He did away with the old Judaic system, including the temple in Jerusalem. Those who apply this prophecy to a physical brick building in Israel make a grave mistake. They miss the fact that the shadow has been eternally overridden by the substance. The old covenant system only served as a temporal imperfect arrangement until Christ came. His life, death and resurrection abolished the old covenant forever and introduced the new covenant.

The whole focus of Daniel 9 is (1) the Calvary sacrifice, and, (2) the error of the Jews continuing to make blood sacrifices in the temple, after they were once and forever abolished. The desolation (mentioned in Daniel 9) was evidently the visible manifestation and ultimate consequence of the Jews rejection of Calvary. Christ’s atoning sacrifice was the undoubted focus of this Old Testament prophecy. The desolation was the awful result of the Jews blasphemous rejection of the sin destroying new covenant and the continuation of the old. That is why the desolation related to, and was focus on, the heart of this rebellion – the temple.

Revelation

I don't believe Revelation was intended to introduce a large deposit of new revelation that was previously unknown to the other sacred writers. Many (wrongly) formulate new elaborate innovative Bible doctrines out of the apocalyptic symbols that were simply designed to express general spiritual truths, in keeping with the rest of Scripture. End-time enthusiasts often arbitrarily use parables, visions, dreams, and symbols to conveniently design their own theology, theories and prophetic schemes. This distorts what was intended to be an unveiling of truth and confuses those who they speak to.

As you dive into the book of Revelation it is important to recognize that it is not chronological. It is a series of recaps. It presents different camera views of the same game (mainly, the period between Christ's First Advent and His Second Advent). Sometimes when one is watching a sports game, the camera is close in on the action, sometimes it presents a broad panoramic view of the game. Sometimes it is focused on the coaches, sometimes it is focused on the players, other times, it is focused on the fans. The book Revelation is a bit like that. Sinclair Ferguson describes the apocalypse as: “Recapitulatory and progressive parallelism.”

What we are looking at is a spiritual revelation of our Savior revealed to us in symbolic form. We get a general overview of the story. We then have an expansion of particular aspects of that story. Scripture often does that.

Revelation 1-22 consists of a number of figurative prophetic parallels (most believe seven in total) revealing the overall battle between the kingdom of God and the kingdom of darkness. They relate, like every other New Testament book, to the period running between the first and Second Advents. John basically goes behind the scenes into the spiritual realm and articulates in symbolic form the enormity of the great conflict between light and darkness. In the book of Revelation, we get a perceptive insight into the invisible realm.

Parallels are simply different camera views of the same corresponding intra-Advent period which look at different aspects of the great battle between darkness and light. Basically, it is telling the same story from different angles.

I see the seals, trumpet, and bowl judgments as parallel recaps. The parallels reveal the increasing degrees of intensity of the intra-Advent conflict between the kingdom of God and the kingdom of darkness, culminating in a great final gathering for battle and the climactic return of Christ to obliterate all rebellion.

I believe the thousand years is a figurative period running from Christ's first resurrection and ends just before the one and one general resurrection/judgment. I associate Satan's little season with the release of the mystery of iniquity/beast/antichrist just before the return of Christ. I believe the mark is real with spiritual. There are more references to the mark of God in Revelation. Most people accept that as spiritual. They are marks of ownership in my estimation.

 

[Jamdoc]

Couldn't it also be a source of comfort, knowing that God will not make his people endure the Great Tribulation, which I believe is referenced somewhere else in scripture as the time of Jacob's Trouble? Why would God make the church go through that?

For their testimony. It's at the time when their testimony is most needed.
A distinction needs to be made between what is "tribulation" and what is "God's wrath".
The Great Tribulation that Jesus talks about, is not God's Wrath. it is actions that men do, persecution namely.
You read Revelation and you see the saints being persecuted, yet in your viewpoint you've taken a "not my problem, that's a different class of believers"
It causes a "second class citizen" of heaven prejudice, there seems to be disdain for "tribulation saints" when they are depicted.
Look outside of our current cushy western countries. Christians suffer persecution right now, Christians are martyred for their faith. And people have the audacity to say God is going to take us away before anything like that happens to ME. That is slapping our brothers and sisters, currently in Iran, threatened with death for preaching the Word of God every day of their lives, slapping them in the face.
It's especially concerning to me when pretribulationists interpret the seals as the wrath of God, when the 5th seal is Christian persecution, so they affirm that God is not appointing believers to His wrath, and then they pour His wrath on the "Tribulation Saints" what an inconsistent belief, and forgive me but how dare they? How dare they paint God as pouring wrath on His people while setting themselves apart from them?

 

[Aldebaran]

For their testimony. It's at the time when their testimony is most needed.
A distinction needs to be made between what is "tribulation" and what is "God's wrath".
The Great Tribulation that Jesus talks about, is not God's Wrath. it is actions that men do, persecution namely.
You read Revelation and you see the saints being persecuted, yet in your viewpoint you've taken a "not my problem, that's a different class of believers"
It causes a "second class citizen" of heaven prejudice, there seems to be disdain for "tribulation saints" when they are depicted.
Look outside of our current cushy western countries. Christians suffer persecution right now, Christians are martyred for their faith. And people have the audacity to say God is going to take us away before anything like that happens to ME. That is slapping our brothers and sisters, currently in Iran, threatened with death for preaching the Word of God every day of their lives, slapping them in the face.
It's especially concerning to me when pretribulationists interpret the seals as the wrath of God, when the 5th seal is Christian persecution, so they affirm that God is not appointing believers to His wrath, and then they pour His wrath on the "Tribulation Saints" what an inconsistent belief, and forgive me but how dare they? How dare they paint God as pouring wrath on His people while setting themselves apart from them?

I get what you mean here. I've seen Revelation 13:7 that says something that flies in the face of the notion that God will keep us safe from the evil one: "It was also given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them, and authority was given to him over every tribe, people, language, and nation."
And people laugh at the preppers who see this stuff coming. It seems to indicate that we're pretty much on our own.

 

[keras]

Couldn't it also be a source of comfort, knowing that God will not make his people endure the Great Tribulation, which I believe is referenced somewhere else in scripture as the time of Jacob's Trouble? Why would God make the church go through that?

If you read Revelation 12:6 and 14, you will see that God does take His faithful people to a safe location on earth for the 1260 days of the GT.
The Christians mentioned in Revelation 12:17, are those who violated the Covenant, Daniel 11:32.

 

[Jamdoc]

I get what you mean here. I've seen Revelation 13:7 that says something that flies in the face of the notion that God will keep us safe from the evil one: "It was also given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them, and authority was given to him over every tribe, people, language, and nation."
And people laugh at the preppers who see this stuff coming. It seems to indicate that we're pretty much on our own.

We are not on our own God is with us the whole time. We have to trust Him that no matter what it is for our best and to glorify Him and that our testimony will do something, it may get someone else saved. That may be what it takes for some people. Sometimes tracts and reading the bible in a calm and normal world isn't enough to convince someone.
But we have to trust God in all of it, even if it seems like it's scary or like it'll be bad.

Think about when Jesus told Peter this in John 21:

18 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdest thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry thee whither thou wouldest not.
19 This spake he, signifying by what death he should glorify God. And when he had spoken this, he saith unto him, Follow me.

Jesus was telling Peter he'd be carried away to be crucified, that Peter would "follow Him" in his death.
That's not comforting words. God doesn't always give words of comfort, sometimes God tells you some truths that are bitter pills to swallow, but they are truths, and sometimes you may have to go through a season of suffering that grows you in Christ.
The comfort is in that it will not be the end, and that it will be worth it.

When Paul taught in 1 Thessalonians 4 about the rapture a lot of pretribulationists think it is the promise that the rapture is before the tribulation that is what is meant by comforting. But really in context Paul was telling people to be comforted in the fact that those dead in Christ would be resurrected and they would not miss out on the coming of the Lord. That they would be reunited with their departed brethren.
and that's the comfort.. that no matter what happens to us, Jesus will raise us up, and it will be worth it.
When Abraham was asked to bind Isaac, he did so because he trusted that even if he had to sacrifice his promised son, that the Lord would not break His promise that Abraham would be the father of many nations, that God would raise Isaac up from the dead. So He trusted God. That is the extent in which we have to trust God when it comes to persecution. We trust in the resurrection. That is part of why Jesus' resurrection means so much to us. It shows the power of God to resurrect us as well even if we lose our life for His sake.

But if that is terrifying to think about. This is a promise from Jesus.
Matthew 24:22

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

That is a promise that not everyone will die, before the Lord returns. Even if I'm wrong and we're talking the post trib position. Not everyone will die, that's a promise.

But regardless of timing.. the rapture is the return of Christ.
People have to understand that as the first coming was everything from His birth to His ascension not just His birth, the second coming is not just Revelation 19, but everything that happens from His appearing in the clouds in power and great glory, to the eternal state. The second coming will never end because from that point on we will always be where He is.

 

[Mike_Tang1991]

I get what you mean here. I've seen Revelation 13:7 that says something that flies in the face of the notion that God will keep us safe from the evil one: "It was also given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them, and authority was given to him over every tribe, people, language, and nation."
And people laugh at the preppers who see this stuff coming. It seems to indicate that we're pretty much on our own.

I know who the antichrist is. The United Nations will make him the "king of the world" (New World Order) and he will enslave, torture and kill all humans

 

[Timtofly]

I think you misunderstood me. I did not say the angels at Sodom were not angels. I am saying that these angels had an appearance of men and that is what they could have actually looked like. It does not mean that they are no longer angels because they have an appearance of men.

Another poster said that angels changed their appearance to look like men. However, there is nothing in the Bible that suggests that good angels morphed their appearance to look like men, though. This is merely an assumption.

There is no morphing. An angel has to appear as fallen humanity. No angel was created purposely to look like fallen humanity. God changes their appearance temporarily. Stating some angels were purposely created that way, is a tad drastic. What would be their purpose in the NHNE? They would have to be changed just as much as fallen humanity, or they would not fit in.

 

[Timtofly]

I was Pretrib/Premil. However, I had many questions over the position. My dad had been a pastor and as a result I just took it as gospel truth. But I couldn't get satisfactory answers to my questions. I decided to study Genesis to Jude, so that I could better understand Revelation. After all, Revelation cannot contradict the rest of Holy Writ. What happened: I couldn't find any biblical evidence in those books that teaches a rapture of the Church, followed by a 7-year tribulation, followed by 3rd coming (including Dan 9, 1 Thess 4). I then dived into Revelation and again I couldn't find any evidence in that book that teaches a rapture of the Church, followed by a 7-year tribulation, followed by 3rd coming, including Revelation 3:10 and Revelation 4:1.

I now believe when Jesus comes, that is it! Men are either caught up or caught on. There will be no second chance, just like Sodom and Noah's day. I believe His return is impending, it could happen tonight, it could happen in 100 years time.

I agree: "There is no way everything happened already. History does not show that at all. Nobody could ever forget the events in Revelation."

There is not even a Second Coming defined in Revelation. No one is supposed to point to a particular time and claim, "this is it".

 

[Timtofly]

It depends on your definition.

You interpretation would depend on your definition.

 

[Timtofly]

· Let the Bible speak for itself!

No where does the Bible say, "Revelation is a book of recaps". So the first rule tosses Recapitulation from the conversation.

 

[Aldebaran]

If you read Revelation 12:6 and 14, you will see that God does take His faithful people to a safe location on earth for the 1260 days of the GT.

In the wilderness?
And the woman is the church?

 

[Aldebaran]

I know who the antichrist is. The United Nations will make him the "king of the world" (New World Order) and he will enslave, torture and kill all humans

I agree with what you said up until "all humans". In Revelation, it seems that those he targets are believers. He'll still need people to do his bidding, and to follow him.

 

[keras]

In the wilderness?
And the woman is the church?

'Wilderness', in the Bible, just means somewhere other that the holy Land.
The 'place of safety' will be in the antipodes of the holy Land.

Revelation 12:1-5 refers to Mary and to Jesus.
Revelation 12:6-17 refers to the Christian Church and to end time events.

No where does the Bible say, "Revelation is a book of recaps". So the first rule tosses Recapitulation from the conversation.

Right, the theory of 'recapitulation', is a crock and does not fit Revelation.

 

[Aldebaran]

'Wilderness', in the Bible, just means somewhere other that the holy Land.
The 'place of safety' will be in the antipodes of the holy Land.

Revelation 12:1-5 refers to Mary and to Jesus.
Revelation 12:6-17 refers to the Christian Church and to end time events.

Ok, I guess I can see it to a point. But if the woman is Mary up to verse 5, why is she suddenly the church starting with verse 6? But what about the 17th verse? Who is "the rest of her seed" if those who believe are in the wilderness for their protection?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

There is no morphing. An angel has to appear as fallen humanity. No angel was created purposely to look like fallen humanity. God changes their appearance temporarily. Stating some angels were purposely created that way, is a tad drastic. What would be their purpose in the NHNE? They would have to be changed just as much as fallen humanity, or they would not fit in.

Need some Bible verses to back up this line of thinking. We don't build faith on our thoughts. We build our faith on the Bible. For God's thoughts are not our thoughts. Yes, I think it is okay to say you have a hypothesis that this is not the Word of God but to say that this is truth would not be accurate.

 

[keras]

Ok, I guess I can see it to a point. But if the woman is Mary up to verse 5, why is she suddenly the church starting with verse 6? But what about the 17th verse? Who is "the rest of her seed" if those who believe are in the wilderness for their protection?

Revelation 12:1-5 is the story of the 12 tribes and how one woman was chosen to birth the 'man child', who would provide salvation for all who would accept it. He was taken up to heaven, Acts 1:9, and His Apostles did the job of spreading the Gospel. We Christians are the result.

I showed you how the Christians get divided; Daniel 11:32 shows the 2 groups. Also Zechariah 14:2b mentions them.
The Christians of Revelation 12:17, must remain and will face extreme persecution. Perhaps they will make up most of the Martyrs referred to in Revelation 20:4.
The faithful ones who will live in safety for that 1260 days, will make up most of those who will be gathered when Jesus Returns. Matthew 24:30-31, 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17

 

[Timtofly]

Need some Bible verses to back up this line of thinking. We don't build faith on our thoughts. We build our faith on the Bible. For God's thoughts are not our thoughts. Yes, I think it is okay to say you have a hypothesis that this is not the Word of God but to say that this is truth would not be accurate.

I know God created angels. I know God created humans. You are the one adding a third hybrid creation not found in the Bible.

Hebrews 13:2

2 Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I know God created angels. I know God created humans. You are the one adding a third hybrid creation not found in the Bible.

Hebrews 13:2

2 Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.

I think there is a difference between an angel revealing his full glorious presence as an angel (with a bunch of light and possibly them having wings) vs. them not showing such a thing. They are spiritual beings. Paul says there is a natural body and a spiritual body. Angels appeared many times as men. Take for example the two angels that went to Sodom to retrieve Lot and his family. They were said to look like men. Nothing in Scripture says that they morphed or transformed to look like men. In other words, I believe there are different looking kinds of angels. Why? Because that is what the Bible describes. Now is it possible they may shape shift to look like men? Yes, it is possible but the Bible really does not clearly say that.

 

[Aldebaran]

I think there is a difference between an angel revealing his full glorious presence as an angel (with a bunch of light and possibly them having wings) vs. them not showing such a thing. They are spiritual beings. Paul says there is a natural body and a spiritual body. Angels appeared many times as men. Take for example the two angels that went to Sodom to retrieve Lot and his family. They were said to look like men. Nothing in Scripture says that they morphed or transformed to look like men. In other words, I believe there are different looking kinds of angels. Why? Because that is what the Bible describes. Now is it possible they may shape shift to look like men? Yes, it is possible but the Bible really does not clearly say that.

They pretty much always look like men when presented in scripture, but are clearly not bound by the same laws of physics as men. Their actions (flying, appearing and disappearing, visiting people in their dreams, etc.) demonstrate this.