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atpollard

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George Floyd wasn't violently resisting ...
You need to rewatch the video of the arrest from beginning to end; this is an incorrect statement of fact.

Multiple police officers attempted to place a combative Floyd into a police car before he ran and was tackled to the ground. Had the police been authorized to use lethal force against people violently resisting arrest (or attempting to flee arrest), then there would have been no "excessive force" used in restraining him while awaiting paramedics and the city would have saved the $27 million payment to his family for the civil settlement and $500 million in property damage from the protests resulting from the video.

I am not advocating this as a policy that should be, merely pointing out the "logical conclusion" of making "justice" all about "lowest financial cost to the city" (the suggested topic in the OP).
 
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SummerMadness

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You need to rewatch the video of the arrest from beginning to end; this is an incorrect statement of fact.

Multiple police officers attempted to place a combative Floyd into a police car before he ran and was tackled to the ground. Had the police been authorized to use lethal force against people violently resisting arrest (or attempting to flee arrest), then there would have been no "excessive force" used in restraining him while awaiting paramedics and the city would have saved the $27 million payment to his family for the civil settlement and $500 million in property damage from the protests resulting from the video.

I am not advocating this as a policy that should be, merely pointing out the "logical conclusion" of making "justice" all about "lowest financial cost to the city" (the suggested topic in the OP).
George Floyd was murdered, his killer was convicted. Do not come on here trying to justify murder. If you want to defend his murder, take it to another thread on that subject. This topic is about police violence and its impact on communities.

If you are now arguing that the police should be allowed to execute handcuffed individuals. Wow. Not surprising, but I guess some people just don't hide it now.
 
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atpollard

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This topic is about police violence and its impact on communities.
No, it is not ...

Yet Another Reason to Oppose Police Violence: It's Costing Us Millions of Dollars

... this topic is about MONEY as a reason to oppose police violence. Read the TITLE of the thread you created if you don't believe me.

In a now deleted post, you said "Seriously, stay on-topic, the topic is about police violence and the financial cost it places on cities." So I have been addressing the VERY NARROW topic of the "financial cost on cities" of both Police and Criminals (you can't have one without the other).

If you are now arguing that the police should be allowed to execute handcuffed individuals. Wow. Not surprising, but I guess some people just don't hide it now.
I am pointing out the financial costs (the topic of your choosing) and where the absolute lowest cost options are. I have stated that I do not advocate this, see:

I am not advocating this as a policy that should be, merely pointing out the "logical conclusion" of making "justice" all about "lowest financial cost to the city" (the suggested topic in the OP)

A bullet and a funeral DO "cost less in dollars" than a year of incarceration (or ten years).
There would be less violent protests if the Law instructed the police to shoot violent criminals that refused to surrender when ordered to do so, so that would reduce the "cost in dollars" to the city from protests.
A police state is more "cost effective" at reducing crime.

The point of my posts is not to advocate for a police state, rather it is to cause y'all to question whether the "cost to the city in dollars" is the best way to measure "justice".
 
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ThatRobGuy

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The cost has to be looked at relative to the actual benefits received. A cost/benefit analysis.

Having an overly brutal police forces costs society much more than the above analysis and has no added benefit. Single incidents can cause large amounts of social strife and increase distrust of policing in general.

Further, any such analysis of our overly costly prosecution of our overly punitive legal code will tell you that how we treat non-violent offenders especially doesn't really benefit society.

Models that focus on rehabilitation of such offenders do a better job insuring peace in society and cost less relatively.

That could very well be true...however, the nature of lawsuits in our country (for anything) have trended toward being more costly, and legally speaking, a person can sue for anything.

For instance, if I try to rob my neighbors house, and the cops catch me, and tackle me, and I claim they hurt my shoulder, there's nothing legally stopping me from filing a large suit against them, even if I didn't win, it still costs taxpayer money for both the court's time, as well as the legal fees of the lawyers for the officer.

That gets exacerbated especially in cases where the circumstances are very public, and certain attorneys are looking to make a name for themselves.


I guess the onus would be on the camp suggesting we have a "overly-brutal" police force to use the phrase you mentioned.

There's no doubt there are some problems, and those problems, per capita, are more prevalent here than in other developed nations...but the flip side of that coin is that police in those other countries aren't having to respond to the same types of calls as frequently as they have to here.

For instance, I'd be highly shocked if Norwegian police forces had to respond to as many calls pertaining to things like gang-related activities, "armed robbery in progress", etc... as police do here.


I've long maintained that it'd be an interesting social experiment (although, I don't see it ever happening) to take a police squad from one of these other countries, pay to have them come over here...and let them try our there approach and see if

A) their methods are effective in a US-style environment
B) if they make their approach harsher over a period of time after being exposed to it.

IE:

Let's bring over the London Metropolitan Police Dept... we'll completely stay out of their way, make sure they have any tools at their disposal that they'd like to have, and give them complete autonomy with regards to how they want to do business...and give them the city of St Louis or Detroit...and we'll see how they do for a few months.
 
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SummerMadness

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For instance, I'd be highly shocked if Norwegian police forces had to respond to as many calls pertaining to things like gang-related activities, "armed robbery in progress", etc... as police do here.
Most calls to the police are not related to gang-related activities or armed robberies. Most calls are suspicious persons, trespassing, noise complaints, and other low-level issues. For example, the police responding to the George Floyd call were responding to a counterfeit bill dispute. A few years ago, a professional tennis athlete, James Blake, was tackled and slammed on the ground by a police officer responding to call about credit card fraud. The responses we see in some of these calls leaves much to be desired.

We need more police interactions like this:

And you know what, most police interactions go exactly like this, regardless of the race. However, the glaring issue is what happens to the police officers that respond to the community poorly. There should be a system to remove such police officers, but as many DOJ reports have detailed, these systems are either dysfunctional or non-existent. You also have to factor in how some police practices harass the local community and do nothing to curb crime. For instance, the NYPD doing stop-and-frisk of young Black and Hispanic men were not responding to a call about gang activity, they were simply profiling and harassing young teens to the point where young people would simply put their hands on a wall if a police car pulled up. Does this mean there are no police responding to calls about a crime in progress? Of course not, but most phone calls are not of this nature.
 
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Wolseley

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Not saying this is how it should be; merely saying that if police disappear, this is how its likely to wind up being..... :(

PROTECTION (2).jpg
 
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SummerMadness

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Not saying this is how it should be; merely saying that of police disappear, this is how its likely to wind up being.....

View attachment 298249
I don't think anyone here is advocating for police to disappear. This represents a false choice: reign in police violence or no police is a ridiculous attitude. It is arguing that police brutality and misconduct are essential, when they are not. Even the defund the police movement is not advocating for police to disappear. There is a police abolition movement, but it is a minority voice and should not be treated as the normative idea. Nonetheless, police abolition also comes with alternatives to the current system.
 
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renniks

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there ever was something that truly encapsulates American racism, it's the acceptance of this idea that police violence is okay when dealing with Black people
It's ok when dealing with any violent criminal. Who cares what race they are?
 
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Wolseley

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It's ok when dealing with any violent criminal. Who cares what race they are?

If someone is a violent, habitual criminal, and especially if they have engaged in things like murder, domestic abuse, rape, child abuse, or peddling drugs, then it makes absolutely no difference whether they happen to be black, white, red, yellow, brown, green, blue, striped, plaid, or polka-dotted.

But we have got to get past this idea that if a violent criminal with a list of outstanding warrants a mile long skips bail, attacks somebody with a knife, and gets killed by a cop---and he's white, then he deserves everything he gets; but if a violent criminal with a list of outstanding warrants a mile long skips bail and attacks somebody with a knife, and is killed by a cop---and he's black, then he's a victim of the system of racist oppression and is a hero martyr for the cause of civil rights, etc., etc., etc., etc., ad infinitum et nauseam et absurdum. That's nonsense. A criminal is a criminal; his color is completely irrelevant.
 
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renniks

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If someone is a violent, habitual criminal, and especially if they have engaged in things like murder, domestic abuse, rape, child abuse, or peddling drugs, then it makes absolutely no difference whether they happen to be black, white, red, yellow, brown, green, blue, striped, plaid, or polka-dotted.

But we have got to get past this idea that if a violent criminal with a list of outstanding warrants a mile long skips bail, attacks somebody with a knife, and gets killed by a cop---and he's white, then he deserves everything he gets; but if a violent criminal with a list of outstanding warrants a mile long skips bail and attacks somebody with a knife, and is killed by a cop---and he's black, then he's a victim of the system of racist oppression and is a hero martyr for the cause of civil rights, etc., etc., etc., etc., ad infinitum et nauseam et absurdum. That's nonsense. A criminal is a criminal; his color is completely irrelevant.
Exactly.
 
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I’m black I was robbed at knife point and I didn’t call anyone. I was also in a home invasion in my younger years, still did not call the police.

There are many people who don't call police for many reasons. I'm glad God protected you.

My disabled father was robbed at gun point one night and my 4'10" stepmother who always wore high heels chased a purse snatcher who robbed her. He got away. I'm sure they phoned police but I never followed up to learn the outcome. That was before cell phones.
 
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variant

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That could very well be true...however, the nature of lawsuits in our country (for anything) have trended toward being more costly, and legally speaking, a person can sue for anything.

For instance, if I try to rob my neighbors house, and the cops catch me, and tackle me, and I claim they hurt my shoulder, there's nothing legally stopping me from filing a large suit against them, even if I didn't win, it still costs taxpayer money for both the court's time, as well as the legal fees of the lawyers for the officer.

That gets exacerbated especially in cases where the circumstances are very public, and certain attorneys are looking to make a name for themselves.

I guess the onus would be on the camp suggesting we have a "overly-brutal" police force to use the phrase you mentioned.

There's no doubt there are some problems, and those problems, per capita, are more prevalent here than in other developed nations...but the flip side of that coin is that police in those other countries aren't having to respond to the same types of calls as frequently as they have to here.

For instance, I'd be highly shocked if Norwegian police forces had to respond to as many calls pertaining to things like gang-related activities, "armed robbery in progress", etc... as police do here.

I've long maintained that it'd be an interesting social experiment (although, I don't see it ever happening) to take a police squad from one of these other countries, pay to have them come over here...and let them try our there approach and see if

A) their methods are effective in a US-style environment
B) if they make their approach harsher over a period of time after being exposed to it.

IE:

Let's bring over the London Metropolitan Police Dept... we'll completely stay out of their way, make sure they have any tools at their disposal that they'd like to have, and give them complete autonomy with regards to how they want to do business...and give them the city of St Louis or Detroit...and we'll see how they do for a few months.

First Are you saying that it's necessary to be more brutal with gang related violence? I don't think that is actually true. Why do you think so?

On the contrary our police brutality complaints are not in any way shape or form limited to gang violence.

Policing simply needs to be better, and the non direct costs of it are much higher than any lawsuit.
 
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SummerMadness

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If someone is a violent, habitual criminal, and especially if they have engaged in things like murder, domestic abuse, rape, child abuse, or peddling drugs, then it makes absolutely no difference whether they happen to be black, white, red, yellow, brown, green, blue, striped, plaid, or polka-dotted.

But we have got to get past this idea that if a violent criminal with a list of outstanding warrants a mile long skips bail, attacks somebody with a knife, and gets killed by a cop---and he's white, then he deserves everything he gets; but if a violent criminal with a list of outstanding warrants a mile long skips bail and attacks somebody with a knife, and is killed by a cop---and he's black, then he's a victim of the system of racist oppression and is a hero martyr for the cause of civil rights, etc., etc., etc., etc., ad infinitum et nauseam et absurdum. That's nonsense. A criminal is a criminal; his color is completely irrelevant.
There are many occasions when people affected by police violence and harassment are not violent or criminals. The NYPD's stop-and-frisk program had a low hit rate and was found to be racially biased.

When we look at practices in the Baltimore Police Department:
BPD's stops often lack reasonable suspicion. Our review of incident reports and interviews with officers and community members found that officers regularly approach individuals standing or walking on City sidewalks to detain and question them and check for outstanding warrants, despite lacking reasonable suspicion to do so. Only 3.7 percent of pedestrian stops resulted in officers issuing a citation or making an arrest. And, as noted below, many of those arrested based upon pedestrian stops had their charges dismissed upon initial review by either supervisors at BPD's Central Booking or local prosecutors.

Or maybe we can talk about the Chicago Police Department:
In addition to feeling unduly harsh to residents of these neighborhoods, this type of policing has resulted in many residents, especially young people, feeling unfairly targeted and stereotyped by police. Young people we spoke with individually and during community meetings told us many stories of officers who, while unwilling or unable to help them when they needed help, followed and "harassed" them as they went about their daily lives. Young people told us of being stopped and searched by police, handcuffed, and having background checks conducted before being let go, while doing everyday things like walking to the store. A young woman told us of being stopped and frisked on her way to her father's funeral. People also told us that even programs nominally put in place to protect them, such as CPD's Roadside Safety Checks and DUI Saturation Checks, are conducted in ways that make the programs feel like excuses to search residents and their cars.
Of particular concern to us were officers who did not appear to recognize when profiling was unlawful. One sergeant told us that "if you're Muslim, and 18 to 24, and wearing white, yeah, I'm going to stop you. It's not called profiling, it's called being pro-active." CPD's own officers, especially, but not only, its black officers, acknowledge profiling and harassment by CPD. A lieutenant told us, "I'm a black man in Chicago, of course I've had problems with the police." Black CPD officers shared stories of being profiled by their own Department. One black officer said that he has been stopped many times by police in the Englewood neighborhood for no reason other than he is a black man in a nice car. Another black officer told us that when she lived in Englewood, she was profiled and stopped many times by officers.

I could go through all the DOJ reports and you'll see a consistent pattern. When police officers are also on the receiving end of this violence, why is anyone arguing that there is no problem:
A US federal jury has charged three Missouri police officers with attacking a black officer working undercover whom they mistook for a protester.

[...]

He was beaten so badly that he eventually needed surgery to his neck and spine and could not eat for days because of the injuries to his face, including a 2cm hole above his lip, the Post-Dispatch reported.

The popular argument is that there are more interactions with police because of crime statistics, but when controlling for factors like crime, income, etc., racial bias is still seen. Meaning that the statistics we're seeing for arrests and violence do not account for the actual level of crime.
 
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Avniel

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If someone is a violent, habitual criminal, and especially if they have engaged in things like murder, domestic abuse, rape, child abuse, or peddling drugs, then it makes absolutely no difference whether they happen to be black, white, red, yellow, brown, green, blue, striped, plaid, or polka-dotted.

But we have got to get past this idea that if a violent criminal with a list of outstanding warrants a mile long skips bail, attacks somebody with a knife, and gets killed by a cop---and he's white, then he deserves everything he gets; but if a violent criminal with a list of outstanding warrants a mile long skips bail and attacks somebody with a knife, and is killed by a cop---and he's black, then he's a victim of the system of racist oppression and is a hero martyr for the cause of civil rights, etc., etc., etc., etc., ad infinitum et nauseam et absurdum. That's nonsense. A criminal is a criminal; his color is completely irrelevant.
Do police have the legal authority to label an individual as criminal or social deviant? Only savages label people criminals void court binding conviction. Does the constitution mean anything or is it just nonsense?
 
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atpollard

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Do police have the legal authority to label an individual as criminal or social deviant?
No, the Courts do when they issue "arrest warrants", often for a parole violation for a prior "conviction". That made the person shooting at the police or fleeing in a car a "violent criminal".

Does the constitution mean anything or is it just nonsense?
It is sort of like a lock ... it only means something to honest people.
Burglars and Serial killers do not respect your Constitutional Rights.
 
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Avniel

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No, the Courts do when they issue "arrest warrants", often for a parole violation for a prior "conviction". That made the person shooting at the police or fleeing in a car a "violent criminal".


It is sort of like a lock ... it only means something to honest people.
Burglars and Serial killers do not respect your Constitutional Rights.
So do police have the authority to label an individual as a burglar or do a jury of one’s peers?

Is an arrest warrant proof of social deviancy and or crime?
 
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Wolseley

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Do police have the legal authority to label an individual as criminal or social deviant?

Sure. It's called a "rap sheet".

So do police have the authority to label an individual as a burglar or do a jury of one’s peers?

If you're apprehended in the course of committing burglary, I'd say that pretty much labels you as a burglar, n'est ce pas?

Is an arrest warrant proof of social deviancy and or crime?

You really need to have this explained to you?
 
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SummerMadness

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No, the Courts do when they issue "arrest warrants", often for a parole violation for a prior "conviction". That made the person shooting at the police or fleeing in a car a "violent criminal".


It is sort of like a lock ... it only means something to honest people.
Burglars and Serial killers do not respect your Constitutional Rights.
The Constitution deals with the government respecting individual rights, what on earth are you talking about? And for that matter, what law are you quoting that an arrest warrant makes someone a violent criminal?
 
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SummerMadness

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Sure. It's called a "rap sheet".

If you're apprehended in the course of committing burglary, I'd say that pretty much labels you as a burglar, n'est ce pas?

You really need to have this explained to you?
You actually do need to explain yourself, an arrest warrant is not proof of anything. Do you understand the concept of due process?
 
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