Where DO people get the "secret rapture" doctrine from?

[Ceallaigh]

I tend to go with the idea that the tribulation took place during the downfall of Jerusalem in 70 AD and that the Beast was Nero.

 

[throughfiierytrial]

While John is addressing (talking to) the seven churches (Revelation 1:4), he is talking about how things are going to end in regards for the whole world. The every eye that shall see him is in reference to every human being in existence.

“Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.” (Revelation 1:7).​

For even those who pierced him will see him.

Okay, lets read Revelation 19.

“And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.” (Revelation 19:11-14).​

The armies which were... IN HEAVEN.... FOLLOWED HIM (JESUS) upon white horses.

Now, behold the scene in 1 Thessalonians 4:

“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.” (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17).​

So in the 1 Thessalonians 4 event, we see that both those believers who died, and those believers who are still alive will be taken up to meet the Lord IN THE AIR. This does not say that they are already in HEAVEN and coming down on white horses in following the Lord. These are clearly TWO DIFFERENT EVENTS going on here.

We can all agree that there cannot be true contradiction in Scripture. At times there appears to be contradiction to us which flags some misunderstanding on our part. Thessalonians uses clear language to depict the Return of Christ/The Judgement Day/The Great Day of the Lord...in my opinion. Revelation is just that, a Revelation and one cannot easily determine what is being said because of the picture language and riddling therein...revelations must be interpreted. So, the careful way to go about this is to accept the black and white Truths and pray about interpretation of Revelation and God will come to you with insight if you wait upon the Lord and do not rush ahead.
I write this to you because I see you come to a conclusion that Thessalonians is not fitting in with your white Horse interpretation...right? I on the other hand would say accept Thessalonians and prayerfully ponder Revelation a bit longer.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

We can all agree that there cannot be true contradiction in Scripture. At times there appears to be contradiction to us which flags some misunderstanding on our part. Thessalonians uses clear language to depict the Return of Christ/The Judgement Day/The Great Day of the Lord...in my opinion. Revelation is just that, a Revelation and one cannot easily determine what is being said because of the picture language and riddling therein...revelations must be interpreted. So, the careful way to go about this is to accept the black and white Truths and pray about interpretation of Revelation and God will come to you with insight if you wait upon the Lord and do not rush ahead.
I write this to you because I see you come to a conclusion that Thessalonians is not fitting in with your white Horse interpretation...right? I on the other hand would say accept Thessalonians and prayerfully ponder Revelation a bit longer.

Well, first it's called the book of Revelation (singular) and not revelations (plural).
Second, In most cases, with God's help, I know how to usually spot a metaphor vs. a literal writing. Usually there are indicators in other parts in Scripture that describe the metaphor and it adds more meaning to what is really going on. In Revelation: I believe the marriage supper is not a literal feast, but a battle.

Check out this short write up to learn more:

Marriage Supper is a Battle, & Not a Literal Feast.

I also believe many misunderstand what happened in the story of Noah and Ham because of their lack of not spotting the correct metaphors, too.

Biblical Metaphors Shed Light on Ham's Sin in Noah's Tent.

So even regular stories can have metaphors that can confuse a reader if they do not know about those metaphors. But again, the Bible gives us the interpretation of that metaphor elsewhere in Scripture. That's how it works. Generally if the story reads literal, and makes sense, we just stick with the literal interpretation. That is how we normally read things.

 

[Aldebaran]

I tend to go with the idea that the tribulation took place during the downfall of Jerusalem in 70 AD and that the Beast was Nero.

What do you view the current time to be?

 

[Jamdoc]

I tend to go with the idea that the tribulation took place during the downfall of Jerusalem in 70 AD and that the Beast was Nero.

Nero was already dead before Revelation was written.
70AD was not a global conflict but a regional one
We still have sin on the earth, we still have death, and Jesus has not come back yet.
so no.
Preterism doesn't fly.

 

[Ceallaigh]

Nero was already dead before Revelation was written.
70AD was not a global conflict but a regional one
We still have sin on the earth, we still have death, and Jesus has not come back yet.
so no.
Preterism doesn't fly.

I'm sure all that's been addressed. I'm not much into it. But it seems more plausible to me than ideas like the flying scorpions are really helicopters etc.

 

[CleanSoul]

but are as the angels of God in heaven.” (Matthew 22:30).

Okay, but, do you really think we become angels in heaven?

 

[Jamdoc]

Okay, but, do you really think we become angels in heaven?

I don't think he's saying that I think he's just saying that maybe the resurrection bodies are invisible and intangible.

I'd disagree because Jesus' resurrection body was visible and tangible, He ate food and could be touched. He could walk through walls and appear and disappear, but .. in essence.. it was a real, physical body.
Our hope is not in some intangible spirit ghosty form but in a physical resurrection.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Okay, but, do you really think we become angels in heaven?

Jesus said it, so I believe it. Of course this is only temporary. Believers who are raptured and who will receive angelic bodies in Heaven will later receive flesh and blood human immortal bodies on the New Earth after the Millennium and the Judgement.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I don't think he's saying that I think he's just saying that maybe the resurrection bodies are invisible and intangible.

I'd disagree because Jesus' resurrection body was visible and tangible, He ate food and could be touched. He could walk through walls and appear and disappear, but .. in essence.. it was a real, physical body.
Our hope is not in some intangible spirit ghosty form but in a physical resurrection.

Angels can be invisible (Numbers 22:22-31), and can pass through physical objects (Matthew 8:28-34), but they also could be seen by men, and eat food (Genesis 18:8), and grab men's hands (Genesis 19:10) (Genesis 19:16), etc.; But their body is of a different atomic structure than ours. Paul says there is a natural body and a spiritual body (1 Corinthians 15:44). Paul says it is sown a natural body (flesh and blood body) but it is raised a spiritual body (1 Corinthians 15:44).

I believe those saints who are raptured will receive angelic bodies to be in Heaven. But this is only temporary. After the 1,000 year reign of Christ, and the Judgment, the city of New Jerusalem will come down from out of Heaven and land on the New Earth and the raptured saints who have angelic bodies will then have an immortal human flesh and blood body to worship the Lord and or God for all eternity on the New Earth. So God's original plan of the garden of Eden will be restored in a manner of speaking.

 

[CleanSoul]

angelic bodies

Is this distinct from becoming an angel? I think you are describing the state of our being, so to speak, instead of describing the nature of our being? You believe we will temporarily become like angels in some way?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Is this distinct from becoming an angel? I think you are describing the state of our being, so to speak, instead of describing the nature of our being? You believe we will temporarily become like angels in some way?

We will be like the angels temporarily.... yes.

John 1:12 says, “But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:”

In the Old Testament, “sons of God” was a reference to angels.

“Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them. (Job 1:6).

Granted, we will be the good “sons of God” in Heaven.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Some have trouble reconciling this with 1 Corinthians 15:54-55 in how we will be immortal in the resurrection (or Rapture).

“So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?” (1 Corinthians 15:54-55).​

However, angels are described in Scripture as being immortal.

For Luke 20:36 says, “Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.”

 

[Bible Highlighter]

“Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven. But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.” (Matthew 22:29-32).

We see two different resurrections mentioned by Jesus here.

In the words of blue above, Jesus is referring to the “resurrection” as in reference to the Rapture of having angelic bodies in Heaven (that is temporary).
But in the words in pink and red above, Jesus is referring to the resurrection of the dead as in the physical “flesh and blood human immortal body” type resurrection upon the Final New Earth (after the 1,000 year reign of Christ, and after the Judgment). For God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. When the Bible refers to the living, it refers to living human beings upon the Earth.

Notice how Jesus switches gears in
changing slightly the conversation to a related topic.
Jesus says, “But as touching...”
It would be like if I wanted to address another topic that you brought up.

Side Note:

This is also why the city of New Jerusalem comes down from out of Heaven and lands on the FINAL New Earth as mentioned in Revelation. Believers who were raptured and have angelic bodies in the city of New Jerusalem will then be able to have their flesh and blood bodies again (but this time, they will be immortal human bodies) upon the New Earth.

 

[CleanSoul]

Our God is a just God, he doesn't just do bad things to an entire world while they're confused as to why this happens. He wants them to know exactly why this happened. That's why the white throne of judgement. God already knows our sins, it's not like He needs to go over them to convict us and punish us, the Throne of Judgement is not for Him, it's for us. For us to know that everyone who goes to hell, deserves to be there. That God has not done ANYTHING unjustly.

Amen. God is also merciful. One thing that is difficult for me to reconcile, is the thought that some people would be happier for eternity in hell instead of heaven. God knows our hearts better than we do. He knows if we really do not like what happens to us, he sees us taking up our cross over and over. He sees how we detest falling into sin, then asking for forgiveness.

But, there are those who have turned away to a great distance, and the thought of praising God is repulsive. For them, a worse punishment would be heaven.

 

[CleanSoul]

“Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven. But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.” (Matthew 22:29-32).

We see two different resurrections mentioned by Jesus here.

In the words of blue above, Jesus is referring to the “resurrection” as in reference to the Rapture of having angelic bodies in Heaven (that is temporary).
But in the words in pink and red above, Jesus is referring to the resurrection of the dead as in the physical “flesh and blood human immortal body” type resurrection upon the Final New Earth (after the 1,000 year reign of Christ, and after the Judgment). For God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. When the Bible refers to the living, it refers to living human beings upon the Earth.

Notice how Jesus switches gears in
changing slightly the conversation to a related topic.
Jesus says, “But as touching...”
It would be like if I wanted to address another topic that you brought up.

Side Note:

This is also why the city of New Jerusalem comes down from out of Heaven and lands on the FINAL New Earth as mentioned in Revelation. Believers who were raptured and have angelic bodies in the city of New Jerusalem will then be able to have their flesh and blood bodies again (but this time, they will be immortal human bodies) upon the New Earth.

I see what you are saying, and it is interesting, albeit a bit of a stretch. And is there any other writing that backs up this theory? Anything the Early Church Fathers talked about? At best I see a loose connection. Still, interesting.

 

[Timtofly]

The rapture is at the last trumpet, which is the seventh trumpet in Revelation.

The rapture would then be 7 Trumpets after the Second Coming. Jesus brings the angels and the Trump of God with Him at the Second Coming. Perhaps the church has to be punished for her apostasy and only those who are found worthy will make it to the 7th Trumpet? What about those who are not apostate? Do they get to be secretly poofed away, so as to not make the church left behind feel worse for their apostasy? Perhaps all the faithful will be martyred before the Second Coming? None of the faithful will remain. I think it is a secret because those on earth will only see judgment and they will be prevented from understanding to remain decieved. Jesus brings the 7th Trumpet with Him. The secret may be that it sounds at the beginning and at the end?

Jesus portrays the Second Coming as a harvest.
Paul portrays the Second Coming as the hope of the believer.
Peter portrays the Second Coming as Judgment.
John portrays the Second Coming as bringing unprecedented tribulation.

 

[Timtofly]

There is some evidence that there is still time to repent. In Revelation 14:6 "And I saw another angel flying in midheaven with an eternal gospel to preach to those who live on the earth, and to every nation, tribe, language, and people".

This indicates 2 important things here. First, the church that is normally around and charged with preaching the gospel is no longer present to do the job. Second, people still have the opportunity to repent in response to the gospel.

That happens by getting one's head chopped off to avoid the mark of the beast. It will not be by faith. It will be the only option.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I see what you are saying, and it is interesting, albeit a bit of a stretch.

There is only one verse that directly teaches the Trinity and yet we know it is true (1 John 5:7 KJB) because it is stated in our Bible plainly.

And is there any other writing that backs up this theory?

So which resurrection do you not believe in? The resurrection of saints to Heaven in angelic bodies? Or the resurrection of the dead of being made alive again physically having human flesh and blood immortal bodies? Jesus is clearly talking about two different resurrections in Matthew 22:29-32. I would normally put forth the verses for both for you to study, but I do not have all of the verses references written down for them in a handy place to give at the moment. Maybe I will put them forth later (When I have more time).

Anything the Early Church Fathers talked about? At best I see a loose connection. Still, interesting.

1 John 2:27 says, “But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.”

 

[Timtofly]

I tend to go with the idea that the tribulation took place during the downfall of Jerusalem in 70 AD and that the Beast was Nero.

That was a very secret rapture. No one witnessed that one.