I tend to go with the idea that the tribulation took place during the downfall of Jerusalem in 70 AD and that the Beast was Nero.
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We can all agree that there cannot be true contradiction in Scripture. At times there appears to be contradiction to us which flags some misunderstanding on our part. Thessalonians uses clear language to depict the Return of Christ/The Judgement Day/The Great Day of the Lord...in my opinion. Revelation is just that, a Revelation and one cannot easily determine what is being said because of the picture language and riddling therein...revelations must be interpreted. So, the careful way to go about this is to accept the black and white Truths and pray about interpretation of Revelation and God will come to you with insight if you wait upon the Lord and do not rush ahead.While John is addressing (talking to) the seven churches (Revelation 1:4), he is talking about how things are going to end in regards for the whole world. The every eye that shall see him is in reference to every human being in existence.
“Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.” (Revelation 1:7).
For even those who pierced him will see him.
Okay, lets read Revelation 19.
“And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.” (Revelation 19:11-14).
The armies which were... IN HEAVEN.... FOLLOWED HIM (JESUS) upon white horses.
Now, behold the scene in 1 Thessalonians 4:
“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.” (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17).
So in the 1 Thessalonians 4 event, we see that both those believers who died, and those believers who are still alive will be taken up to meet the Lord IN THE AIR. This does not say that they are already in HEAVEN and coming down on white horses in following the Lord. These are clearly TWO DIFFERENT EVENTS going on here.
We can all agree that there cannot be true contradiction in Scripture. At times there appears to be contradiction to us which flags some misunderstanding on our part. Thessalonians uses clear language to depict the Return of Christ/The Judgement Day/The Great Day of the Lord...in my opinion. Revelation is just that, a Revelation and one cannot easily determine what is being said because of the picture language and riddling therein...revelations must be interpreted. So, the careful way to go about this is to accept the black and white Truths and pray about interpretation of Revelation and God will come to you with insight if you wait upon the Lord and do not rush ahead.
I write this to you because I see you come to a conclusion that Thessalonians is not fitting in with your white Horse interpretation...right? I on the other hand would say accept Thessalonians and prayerfully ponder Revelation a bit longer.
I tend to go with the idea that the tribulation took place during the downfall of Jerusalem in 70 AD and that the Beast was Nero.
I tend to go with the idea that the tribulation took place during the downfall of Jerusalem in 70 AD and that the Beast was Nero.
Nero was already dead before Revelation was written.
70AD was not a global conflict but a regional one
We still have sin on the earth, we still have death, and Jesus has not come back yet.
so no.
Preterism doesn't fly.
Okay, but, do you really think we become angels in heaven?but are as the angels of God in heaven.” (Matthew 22:30).
Okay, but, do you really think we become angels in heaven?
Okay, but, do you really think we become angels in heaven?
I don't think he's saying that I think he's just saying that maybe the resurrection bodies are invisible and intangible.
I'd disagree because Jesus' resurrection body was visible and tangible, He ate food and could be touched. He could walk through walls and appear and disappear, but .. in essence.. it was a real, physical body.
Our hope is not in some intangible spirit ghosty form but in a physical resurrection.
Is this distinct from becoming an angel? I think you are describing the state of our being, so to speak, instead of describing the nature of our being? You believe we will temporarily become like angels in some way?angelic bodies
Is this distinct from becoming an angel? I think you are describing the state of our being, so to speak, instead of describing the nature of our being? You believe we will temporarily become like angels in some way?
Our God is a just God, he doesn't just do bad things to an entire world while they're confused as to why this happens. He wants them to know exactly why this happened. That's why the white throne of judgement. God already knows our sins, it's not like He needs to go over them to convict us and punish us, the Throne of Judgement is not for Him, it's for us. For us to know that everyone who goes to hell, deserves to be there. That God has not done ANYTHING unjustly.
“Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven. But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.” (Matthew 22:29-32).
We see two different resurrections mentioned by Jesus here.
In the words of blue above, Jesus is referring to the “resurrection” as in reference to the Rapture of having angelic bodies in Heaven (that is temporary).
But in the words in pink and red above, Jesus is referring to the resurrection of the dead as in the physical “flesh and blood human immortal body” type resurrection upon the Final New Earth (after the 1,000 year reign of Christ, and after the Judgment). For God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. When the Bible refers to the living, it refers to living human beings upon the Earth.
Notice how Jesus switches gears in
changing slightly the conversation to a related topic.
Jesus says, “But as touching...”
It would be like if I wanted to address another topic that you brought up.
Side Note:
This is also why the city of New Jerusalem comes down from out of Heaven and lands on the FINAL New Earth as mentioned in Revelation. Believers who were raptured and have angelic bodies in the city of New Jerusalem will then be able to have their flesh and blood bodies again (but this time, they will be immortal human bodies) upon the New Earth.
The rapture would then be 7 Trumpets after the Second Coming. Jesus brings the angels and the Trump of God with Him at the Second Coming. Perhaps the church has to be punished for her apostasy and only those who are found worthy will make it to the 7th Trumpet? What about those who are not apostate? Do they get to be secretly poofed away, so as to not make the church left behind feel worse for their apostasy? Perhaps all the faithful will be martyred before the Second Coming? None of the faithful will remain. I think it is a secret because those on earth will only see judgment and they will be prevented from understanding to remain decieved. Jesus brings the 7th Trumpet with Him. The secret may be that it sounds at the beginning and at the end?The rapture is at the last trumpet, which is the seventh trumpet in Revelation.
That happens by getting one's head chopped off to avoid the mark of the beast. It will not be by faith. It will be the only option.There is some evidence that there is still time to repent. In Revelation 14:6 "And I saw another angel flying in midheaven with an eternal gospel to preach to those who live on the earth, and to every nation, tribe, language, and people".
This indicates 2 important things here. First, the church that is normally around and charged with preaching the gospel is no longer present to do the job. Second, people still have the opportunity to repent in response to the gospel.
I see what you are saying, and it is interesting, albeit a bit of a stretch.
You said:And is there any other writing that backs up this theory?
You said:Anything the Early Church Fathers talked about? At best I see a loose connection. Still, interesting.
That was a very secret rapture. No one witnessed that one.I tend to go with the idea that the tribulation took place during the downfall of Jerusalem in 70 AD and that the Beast was Nero.