I've no idea what this has to do with I pointed out in my last post to you. I've not indicated to you what my view is on repentance as it relates to the Gospel, so why are you writing to me about it?
You have no idea why I quoted the Passages about repentance?
All the Scripture I listed that you responded to had to do with a repentant faith – dying to, or putting off, the old life, and then, by faith, following Lord Jesus into a holy life of righteousness and love, and that we are admonished to continue in, and endure in, the faith to the end to be saved.
Lord Jesus and the Apostles taught us this in the Scriptures I provided for you. Along with all the Scriptures I quoted, here is what I wrote, and then your response follows:
setst777 said:
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One has to endure in the faith, demonstrated in a holy life before God, to receive eternal salvation or eternal life in the end.
You responded:
This is bald-faced works-salvation, explicitly and repeatedly denied by Scripture:
Yet, we see all the Scriptures warning the faithful to live holy lives, and to endure in the faith to the end to be saved (Ex:
Matthew 10:22;
Matthew 24:13;
Romans 6:21-22;
James 1:12;
1 Peter 1:9;
Revelation 2:10).
You have to reject all the Scriptures showing that genuine faith is revealed by denying self, and living a holy life before God – the only faith God accepts (
Romans 6:1-5;
Romans 6:21-22;
Romans 8:12-13;
Romans 11:20-22;
1 Corinthians 10:1-12;
Ephesians 4:15-31;
Ephesians 5:3-9;
Galatians 5:24-25;
Galatians 6:7-9; Colossians 3:1-17;
1 Timothy 4:16;
1 Peter 1:13-19;
Hebrews 10:24-31;
Hebrews 12:14-17). You have to reject all these Scriptures, and the many others throughout the NT to hold onto your view.
But since you did define repentance, let us review it:
Repentance - changing one's mind - is crucial, then, to abandoning one set of ideas in favor of another. The Gospel requires that the lost person accept an entirely new world view and conception of reality. In order to respond in saving faith to the truths of the Gospel, a lost man will have to change his mind - repent - about a great many things…
Pretty good.
Would you say that Lord Jesus definition of repentance agrees with how you defined it?
Luke 9:23-26 (WEB)
23 He said to all, “
If anyone desires to come after me, let him deny himself, take up his cross daily, and follow me. 24 For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but
whoever will lose his life for my sake, will save it.
Would you say that Baptism represents that dying to the old life, and now living to serve God in a holy life of Righteousness?
Romans 6:1-5 (WEB) 1 What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2 By no means!
We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father,
we too may live a new life. 5 For
if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his.
All the Scriptures harmonize with Lord Jesus. We saw
Romans 6:1-23;
Romans 6:1-5;
and Colossians 4:1-17 so far, and they all say the same thing..
A true Gospel faith is demonstrated by denying the old life of sin (
Verse 21), and now living to serve God unto a holy life (
Verse 22) and righteousness (
Verses 5-17). That is the only faith by which God will give you the free gift of eternal life (
Verse 22;
Verse 23). That is repentance and faith.
Repentance towards God and faith in Lord Jesus is the Gospel Faith by which God saves us, and is defined by Scripture as:
- A commitment to deny (Luke 9:23-26), renounce (Ephesians 4:17-24; Ephesians 5:6-14), put off (Colossians 3:9), put to death (Colossians 3:3-8) crucify (Galatians 5:24), and die to (Colossians 3:3) the old life controlled by sinful passions, and then
- By faith we are instructed to now commit to live for the new purpose of following Lord Jesus into a holy or sanctified, life of righteousness and love (Romans 6; Colossians 3:1-17, Ephesians 4:15-31).
- That is why the Gospel was preached: Matthew 28:19-20
- This is the new life in Christ Jesus (Romans 6:1-5).
- When we commit to this Gospel Faith, as described, the Spirit indwells us (Acts 5:32; John 14:15-17; John 14:23; Acts 2:38)
- By denying self and following Jesus into a holy life of righteousness and love, we are living and walking in the indwelling Spirit (Galatians 6:7-9; Galatians 5:24-25).
- As we faithfully commit to follow Lord Jesus in this way – living and walking by the His Spirit -the Spirit of God leads us to keep our commitment, and to work out God’s will in our lives (Philippians 2:12; Romans 8:12-14).
- Not every Christian will remain faithful, but will grieve the Spirit (Ephesians 4:30-32), quench the Spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:19-22), and insult the Spirit (Hebrews 10:29-30) who indwells us by this Gospel Faith (John 7:37-39; Act 5:32) by their sinfulness.
- Others will be deceived by false teachers. Others will renounce their faith under persecution. But he who endures to the end, God promises eternal life.
Hebrews 3:12-15 (WEB) 12
Beware, brothers and sisters, lest perhaps there might be in any one of you an evil heart of unbelief, in falling away from the living God; 13 but exhort one another day by day, so long as it is called “today”, lest anyone of you be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ,
if we hold the beginning of our confidence firm to the end, 15 while it is said,
“Today if you will hear his voice, do not harden your hearts, as in the rebellion.” [Psalm 95:7-8]
Hebrews 12:14-17 (WEB) 14 Follow after peace with all men, and the sanctification (holiness)
without which no man will see the Lord, 15 looking carefully lest there be any man who falls short of the grace of God, lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and many be defiled by it, 16 lest there be any sexually immoral person, or profane person, like Esau, who sold his birthright for one meal. 17 For you know that even when he afterward desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no place for a change of mind though he sought it diligently with tears.
You call this works-salvation, but Holy Scripture reveals this the faith of the Gospel by which we are saved.
setst777 said:
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Ephesians 2:10 (WEB) 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared before that we would walk in them.
Not that works save us, but that if our faith is in Lord Jesus we are now following HIM. That is what the Great Commission of the Gospel preaching is all about:
Matthew 28:19-20 (WEB)
19 Go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I commanded you. Behold, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.
For instance, the Gospel Faith is instructed to the Church about living in the Faith. The directions to the Church are given to show how they are to live in the Faith they profess – in the Colossians 3:1-17, which is basically a repeat of Romans 6 with similar language, and is also like so many other Scriptures.
The term "faith" can be a bit murky for speakers of English. By "faith," one can mean "religion," or "system of beliefs," or "trust"; "faith" can be a noun and a verb. You seem to mix the verb and noun form of the word "faith," equivocating - perhaps unwittingly - in your use of the word.
In any case, you're right: works do not save anyone. What's more, one could exert all the faith one possesses in, say, the oak tree in the back yard, trusting completely that it will take one to heaven one day, but such faith - however strong - exerted in an impotent, inanimate, leafy object must be disappointed. It is evident in this that one's faith, insofar as the Gospel is concerned, is not the crucial thing but the power of the object of one's faith: Jesus Christ. Our faith in the Saviour has a life-transforming, eternal effect, not because of the force of our faith, but because of the power of the object of our faith. I remark on this because many believers place the onus for their salvation upon the strength of their faith rather than upon the Saviour in whom they exercise their faith.
I can’t speak for anyone’s putting their faith in their faith. I imagine there may be people like that. The object of a Christian’s faith is definitely in Lord Jesus. A true faith in Jesus is demonstrated by being His disciple, following Him, observing all things he commands of us. This faith is a submission of our complete selves to our Lord Jesus – to deny ourselves, and to be His disciples, just as the Great Commission directs, and of which Baptism represents.
setst777 said:
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I need not comment on it, because the Scripture itself describes the faith. If that faith describes you, then you are saved.
Colossians 3:1-17 (WEB)
1 If then you were raised together with Christ, seek the things that are above, where Christ is, seated on the right hand of God. 2 Set your mind on the things that are above, not on the things that are on the earth. 3 For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. 4 When Christ, our life, is revealed, then you will also be revealed with him in glory.
5 Put to death therefore your members which are on the earth: sexual immorality, uncleanness, depraved passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. 6 For these things’ sake the wrath of God comes on the children of disobedience.
That is the description of faith which Aiki does not want anyone to see…
??? This is an odd thing to write. Where have I urged people not to read and consider the passage here you've quoted? You should be very careful not to assign evil motives to fellow believers. (
James 4:11)
I believe I did summarize Colossians 3:1-17 and Romans 6 in the following:
setst777 said:
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One has to endure in the faith, demonstrated in a holy life before God, to receive eternal salvation or eternal life in the end.
You responded:
This is bald-faced works-salvation, explicitly and repeatedly denied by Scripture:
If you are understanding something different from
Colossians 3:1-17 and
Romans 6 then what I wrote, which you called “works-salvation,” please let me know.
Acts 26:19-20 (WEB) 19 “Therefore, King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision, 20 but declared first to them of Damascus, at Jerusalem, and throughout all the country of Judea, and also to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, doing works worthy of repentance.
setst777 said:
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No one disagrees. The gift of God is God’s saving grace, which is not accessed by works, but by faith (Romans 5:1-2).
Just to clarify: Faith is also part of God's "gift."
Romans 12:3 (NASB)
3 For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith.
2 Timothy 2:25 (NASB)
25 ...if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth,
No Scripture states or teaches that faith onto salvation is a gift of God. Some ‘scholars’ object, citing “
1 Corinthians 12:9” and “
Romans 12:3-8.”
Citing “1 Corinthians 12:9” as proof that saving faith is a gift of God is a good example of taking verses out of context and supplying one’s own meaning.
“
1 Corinthians 12” refers to the gifts of the Spirit within the body of Christ – to those already saved.
One of the many Spiritual gifts Paul lists in 1 Corinthians 12 is “faith,” which is given to
some in the body of Christ (1 Cor 12:9).
1 Corinthians 12:9 (KJV)
9
To another faith by the same Spirit;
to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit
If this Spiritual gift of “faith” is given so one can be saved, then does this mean that all others in the body of Christ who did not receive the gift of faith were saved without faith? No. Paul is discussing Spiritual gifts for those already saved.
Similar to 1 Corinthians 12, we see also that Romans 12:3-8 is also teaching about the Spiritual Gifts and the faith to carry out specific gifts in the body of Christ to those already saved. A measure of faith unique to carry out specific Spiritual gifts is required.
Regarding 2 Timothy 2:25
2 Timothy 2:23-26 (WEB) 23 But refuse foolish and ignorant questionings, knowing that they generate strife. 24 The Lord’s servant must not quarrel, but be gentle toward all, able to teach, patient, 25 in gentleness correcting those who oppose him: perhaps God may give them repentance leading to a full knowledge of the truth, 26 and they may recover themselves out of the devil’s snare, having been taken captive by him to his will.
Those who continually oppose God and His servants are in danger of being punished by God with a hardening so they cannot be saved anymore because of their willful refusal of His grace (
2 Thessalonians 2:10;
Romans 1:22-26;
John 12:37-40;
Romans 10:21).
There is no hope again to return, unless God should grant mercy after they have been humbled by the trials of this life in response to their sinfulness, as the prodigal son did (
Luke 15:11-32), or in answer to prayer, and remove the hardening.
I'm not a Calvinist. If you'd simply asked me what my soteriological perspective was, you could have saved yourself a bit of unnecessary writing here. I don't hold to the Reformed "ordo salutis" which is what you seem to be arguing against here.
I already know your soteriological perspective, unless you changed your position, but you didn’t as I see from the rest of your post. We had a long discussion about this very thing before in another long debate in January/February 2019, so that is the reason I responded to the Passages you provided that included that topic. And, whether you admit you are Reformist or not, everything you argued was from a Calvinist perspective to a tee.
Blessings