"He who practices righteousness is righteous" (1 John 3:7)

timothyu

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So you do agree that it was only until at least mid Acts, after Stephen was stoned, that things have changed.

Alright then we are in agreement.
Well yes, God had to give His chosen first dibs. Now there are no chosen in spite of what the US sees itself as.
 
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Guojing

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Well yes, God had to give His chosen first dibs. Now there are no chosen in spite of what the US sees itself as.

So you believe that the same physical kingdom of God, for example as stated in Luke 1:68-75, is now being offered to gentiles too?

When you preach to unbelievers, do you still tell them to "repent for the kingdom of heaven is at hand"? (Matthew 3:2,Matthew 4:17,Mark 1:15)?
 
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timothyu

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So you believe that the same physical kingdom of God, for example as stated in Luke 1:68-75, is now being offered to gentiles too?

When you preach to unbelievers, do you still tell them to "repent for the kingdom of heaven is at hand"? (Matthew 3:2,Matthew 4:17,Mark 1:15)?
Well there won't be one for Jews and another for the gentiles including the other 10 tribes of the House of Israel (they were considered gentile also).

Repentance is simply rejecting the self serving ways of man for instead the ways of God.
 
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Guojing

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Well there won't be one for Jews and another for the gentiles including the other 10 tribes of the House of Israel (they were considered gentile also).

Repentance is simply rejecting the self serving ways of man for instead the ways of God.

But do you preach to unbelievers now that the kingdom of heaven is at hand for them?

That is my question.
 
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timothyu

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But do you preach to unbelievers now that the kingdom of heaven is at hand for them?

That is my question.
Why not? Each deserves a chance to decide what they will find more worthy to follow, the ways of man or the ways of God.
 
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Guojing

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Why not? Each deserves a chance to decide what they will find more worthy to follow, the ways of man or the ways of God.

Okay, assuming you really do tell unbelievers that, at least you are being consistent.
 
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timothyu

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Okay, assuming you really do tell unbelievers that, at least you are being consistent.
It's very easy to ask anyone what it is that they don't like about the world and then ask why. Guaranteed it always falls into the same self serving ways about us that God's not keen on either. Then presenting the counter-culture of the Kingdom compared to the culture of man is a snap. Many are surprised to find they were in line with the Kingdom all along but thought it involved a religion.
 
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Mark Quayle

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What does the Spirit will to do?

The will of the Spirit is to indwell and give life to those who believe:

John 7:38-39 (WEB) 38 He who believes in me, as the Scripture has said, from within him will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But he said this about the Spirit, which those believing in him were to receive.

By faith, we pass from spiritual death to life

John 5:24 (WEB) 24 “Most certainly I tell you, he who hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life, and doesn’t come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
And how does any of that deny what I have said?
 
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Mark Quayle

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---Stanley speaks of believers who become unbelievers.
Did he say they become unbelievers? Not to defend Stanley, but it sounds like something taken out of context.

Edit: I can even imagine some of my relatives who would claim I abandoned the faith. Years ago I gave up on the Arminian-leaning force of the Christianity in which I was brought up, and kept away from the churches of my acquaintance, because they galled me, and I found it almost impossible to keep my mouth shut.

'Abandoned the faith' is even what I might term some who I know very well, consider the church to have been treacherous with them, but not God. Others, even God, they think, has been unjust with them, yet they may yet be saved.

One thing, I know for a fact, is that we put too much stock in our decision, and not in God's.
 
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Mark Quayle

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The point of my quoting Romans 6:10-14 (written to believers) is to show that the Lord instructs believers to take certain actions in order to effect the desired change (i.e. becoming instruments of righteousness). Hopefully this is obvious: God is not a forcer and He will not do for us what he has instructed us to do.
I'm not sure where you draw this line. To me, God will CAUSE to happen everything that does happen, but he does much of this through the decisions of Creatures. Furthermore, experience and Scripture both show he is tender and kind, more gentle than we are --yet we can be sure he will indeed accomplish all he set out to do.
 
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setst777

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And how does any of that deny what I have said?

Greetings Mark

Before I respond, let me recap the discussion we had for reference, since this discussion took place a while ago.

Msg 192
setst777 said:
I will accept Lord Jesus' response to Nicodemus over anyone else.

We are only given Spiritual Life by faith. And Spiritual Life is being born again. Unless you think born again does not mean Spiritual Life?

John 7:37-39 (WEB) 37 Now on the last and greatest day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, “If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me and drink! 38 He who believes in me, as the Scripture has said, from within him will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But he said this about the Spirit, which those believing in him were to receive. For the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus wasn’t yet glorified.

John 4:13-14 (WEB)
13 Jesus answered her, “Everyone who drinks of this water will thirst again, 14 but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him will never thirst again; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life.”


So when he said that the Spirit does what it will, quite independently of anyone's putting it into obligation, and when he said "Ye must be born again" (not, 'you need to gin up some worthy faith so that you can become born again') He was just talking to the wind?

BTW the well of water springing up to eternal life doesn't say 'well of water causing eternal life', but I don't even need to go there --Again: HOW does one get this water? God gives it to those to whom he chooses to show mercy.

Msg 195
What does the Scripture say? The water (the Spirit) is given to those who "drink" or "believe." Lord Jesus could not have made it any more plain to understand.

John 7:38-39 (WEB) 38 He who believes in me, as the Scripture has said, from within him will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But he said this about the Spirit, which those believing in him were to receive.

By faith, we pass from spiritual death to life

John 5:24 (WEB) 24 “Most certainly I tell you, he who hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life, and doesn’t come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Msg 197
What does the Spirit will to do?

The will of the Spirit is to indwell and give life to those who believe:

John 7:38-39 (WEB) 38 He who believes in me, as the Scripture has said, from within him will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But he said this about the Spirit, which those believing in him were to receive.

By faith, we pass from spiritual death to life

John 5:24 (WEB) 24 “Most certainly I tell you, he who hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life, and doesn’t come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Msg 528
And how does any of that deny what I have said?

So, as I review the discussion we had on this topic, I learned that you believe the will of the Spirit is to give new birth in the Spirit irrespective of anything we can do.

So when he said that the Spirit does what it will, quite independently of anyone's putting it into obligation, and when he said "Ye must be born again" (not, 'you need to gin up some worthy faith so that you can become born again') He was just talking to the wind?

However, the Scriptures teach that the will of the Spirit is to indwell those who believe to give them Spiritual life from death:

John 7:38-39 (WEB) 38 He who believes in me, as the Scripture has said, from within him will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But he said this about the Spirit, which those believing in him were to receive.

Therefore By faith, we pass from spiritual death to life

John 5:24 (WEB) 24 “Most certainly I tell you, he who hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life, and doesn’t come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Being born again is to pass from Spiritual Death to Spiritual Life. We pass from death to life when we are born again by the indwelling Spirit – only by faith. Before faith, we are still Spiritually dead. After we believe, we pass into life.

I also learned from you that you do not believe the Spirit indwelling you by faith is the cause of eternal life:

BTW the well of water springing up to eternal life doesn't say 'well of water causing eternal life', but I don't even need to go there --Again: HOW does one get this water? God gives it to those to whom he chooses to show mercy.

The Scriptures teach that the Spirit, in you, is what gives you eternal life – only by drinking (believing).

John 7:37-39 (WEB) 37 Now on the last and greatest day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, “If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me and drink! 38 He who believes in me, as the Scripture has said, from within him will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But he said this about the Spirit, which those believing in him were to receive.

John 4:13-14 (WEB) 13 Jesus answered her, “Everyone who drinks of this water will thirst again, 14 but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him will never thirst again; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life.”

That is how I understand you to be disagreeing with what I had written.

Blessings
 
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Mark Quayle

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I also learned from you that you do not believe the Spirit indwelling you by faith is the cause of eternal life:
Wrong. That is not what I said. The Spirit indwelling you is the very cause of your faith. Thus, it is the cause of your belief, the cause of your repentance, the cause of your obedience, all the work of God. You do indeed believe, receive, repent, obey etc. But it is the work of God, begun with regeneration by the Spirit --not genuine salvific belief accomplished by the dead in sin.
 
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GOD Shines Forth!

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Then the parable of the sower lied.

Jesus was not addressing us, He called Paul to do so and gave him his "my gospel". We are under the dispensation of the grace of God. They were under the law. Big difference.
 
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timothyu

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Jesus was not addressing us, He called Paul to do so and gave him his "my gospel". We are under the dispensation of the grace of God. They were under the law. Big difference.
Oh right. Nothing applies to us that Jesus said. He wasn't our Messiah. Forgot.
 
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setst777

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Nowhere is this ever stated in Scripture. Never is the phrase "initial salvation" or "final salvation" ever used in the New Testament. This unbiblical language is merely a cover for works-salvation which the Bible flatly and repeatedly rejects. (Ephesians 2:8-9; 2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 3:5)

The Scriptures definitely do teach about when we first believed (initial salvation). At some point, the Christian had to have believed in Lord Jesus to be saved.

Many warnings in Scripture to continue in the faith to remain saved.

One has to endure in the faith, demonstrated in a holy life before God, to receive eternal salvation or eternal life in the end.

1 Peter 1:6-9; Romans 6:1-5; Romans 6:21-22; Matthew 10:22; Matthew 24:13; 1 Timothy 4:16; James 1:12; Revelation 2:10; Revelation 3:21; Matthew 15:10; Romans 11:19-22

1 Peter 1:6-9 (WEB)
6 Wherein you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved in various trials, 7 that the proof of your faith, which is more precious than gold that perishes even though it is tested by fire, may be found to result in praise, glory, and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ — 8 whom, not having known, you love. In him, though now you don’t see him, yet believing, you rejoice greatly with joy that is unspeakable and full of glory, 9 receiving the result of your faith, the salvation of your souls.

Unless, by faith, we live a holy and righteous life before God, we will not take part in the Resurrection of Lord Jesus.

Romans 6:1-5 (WEB) What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 May it never be! We who died to sin, how could we live in it any longer? 3 Or don’t you know that all we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were buried therefore with him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we also might walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have become united with him in the likeness of his death, we will also be part of his resurrection

Romans 6:21-22 (WEB) 21 What fruit then did you have at that time in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. 22 But now, being made free from sin and having become servants of God, you have your fruit of sanctification and the result of eternal life.

Matthew 10:22 (WEB) 22 You will be hated by all men for my name’s sake, but he who endures to the end will be saved.

Matthew 24:13 (WEB) 13 But he who endures to the end will be saved.

1 Timothy 4:16 (WEB)
16 Pay attention to yourself and to your teaching.
Continue in these things, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you.

James 1:12 (WEB) 12 Blessed is a person who endures temptation, for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life, which the Lord promised to those who love him.

Romans 11:19-22 (WEB)
20 True; by their unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by your faith. Don’t be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God didn’t spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22 See then the goodness and severity of God. Toward those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in his goodness; otherwise you also will be cut off.

Not every Christian will continue to sow to the Spirit, but will instead, also sow to the flesh, as many in the Churches are continually warned about.

Galatians 6:7-9 (WEB)
7 Don’t be deceived. God is not mocked, for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap.
8 For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption.
But he who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
9 Let us not be weary in doing good, for we will reap in due season, if we do not give up.

Luke 21:34-36 (WEB) Bolding mine
34 “So be careful, or your hearts will be loaded down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that day will come on you suddenly. 35 For it will come like a snare on all those who dwell on the surface of all the earth. 36 Therefore be watchful all the time, praying that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will happen, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

Revelation 3:4-5 (WEB) Bolding mine
4 Nevertheless you have a few names in Sardis that didn’t defile their garments. They will walk with me in white, for they are worthy.
He who overcomes
will be arrayed in white garments, and I will in no way blot his name out of the book of life, and I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Matthew 10:38 (WEB) 38 He who doesn’t take his cross and follow after me is not worthy of me.

2 Thessalonians 1:4-5 (WEB) Bolding mine 4… we ourselves boast about you in the assemblies of God for your perseverance and faith in all your persecutions and in the afflictions which you endure. 5 This is an obvious sign of the righteous judgment of God, to the end that you may be counted worthy of God’s Kingdom, for which you also suffer.

2 Peter 1:10-11 (NASB) 10 Therefore, brothers and sisters, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choice of you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble; 11 for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you.
 
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setst777

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Wrong. That is not what I said. The Spirit indwelling you is the very cause of your faith. Thus, it is the cause of your belief, the cause of your repentance, the cause of your obedience, all the work of God. You do indeed believe, receive, repent, obey etc. But it is the work of God, begun with regeneration by the Spirit --not genuine salvific belief accomplished by the dead in sin.

You can say wrong all you want, I quoted your own words.

You can never deny the Scriptures that were provided no matter how much you say "wrong." You avoided every Scripture provided like the plague. Your own message is your public testimony of this very thing, as not one Scripture was discussed or provided by you.

Wrong. That is not what I said. The Spirit indwelling you is the very cause of your faith.

What will you do with the following Passages?

Acts 5:32 (WEB) 32 We are His witnesses of these things; and so also is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.

John 14:15-17 (WEB) 15 If you love me, keep my commandments. 16 I will pray to the Father, and he will give you another Counselor, that he may be with you forever: 17 the Spirit of truth

John 14:23 (WEB) 23 Jesus answered him, “If a man loves me, he will keep my word. My Father will love him, and we will come to him, and make our home with him.

Acts 2:38 (WEB) 38 Peter said to them, “Repent, and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Galatians 3:2 (NIV) Bolding mine… 2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?

Galatians 3:5 (NIV) Bolding mine… 5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard?

Galatians 3:13-14 (WEB) Bolding mine… 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us. For it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree,” 14 that the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Christ Jesus; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Ephesians 1:13-14 (WEB) 13 in whom you also, having heard the word of the truth, the Good News of your salvation—in whom, having also believed, you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a pledge of our inheritance, to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of his glory

So what is the will of the Spirit?...

Does the Spirit indwell us so we can believe, or do we believe so the Spirit may indwell us?

When we believe in Jesus with the kind of faith demonstrated by repentance and following Jesus, then the Spirit indwells us to make us alive inside, empowering our faith to be victorious.

John 7:37-39 (WEB) Bolding mine
37 Now on the last and greatest day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, “If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me and drink! 38 He who believes in me, as the Scripture has said, from within him will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But he said this about the Spirit, which those believing in him were to receive. For the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus wasn’t yet glorified.

God's Holy Word stands.

And I stand on God's Word. I will not fall away into deceptions of what men say that go against God's Word.
 
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setst777

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Jesus was not addressing us, He called Paul to do so and gave him his "my gospel". We are under the dispensation of the grace of God. They were under the law. Big difference.

The Faith of the Gospel is demonstrated by denying ourselves and following Lord Jesus into a holy life of righteousness and love (Romans 6; Colossians 3:1-17; Galatians 5:13-25), His Spirit indwelling and leading us as we live (Romans 8:12-13), walk (Romans 8:3-4; Galatians 5:24-25), and sow (Galatians 6:7-9) to the Spirit in this way. This is the kind of faith by which good works are brought forth.

Was Lord Jesus promoting grace or the Law in the Great Commission of the Kingdom Gospel that is to be preached throughout the whole world (all the words in the below Passages are direct quotes, or directed by, Lord Jesus)?

Matthew 28:19-20 (NIV) 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

Revelation 3:1-5 (WEB)
1 “I know your works, that you have a reputation of being alive, but you are dead. 2 Wake up and keep the things that remain, which you were about to throw away, for I have found no works of yours perfected before my God. 3 Remember therefore how you have received and heard. Keep it and repent.
If therefore you won’t watch, I will come as a thief, and you won’t know what hour I will come upon you. 4 Nevertheless you have a few names in Sardis that didn’t defile their garments. They will walk with me in white, for they are worthy.
5 He who overcomes will be arrayed in white garments, and I will in no way blot his name out of the book of life, and I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Revelation 14:12-13 (WEB)
12 Here is the perseverance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.” 13 I heard a voice from heaven saying, “Write, ‘Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.’” “Yes,” says the Spirit, “that they may rest from their labors; for their works follow with them.”

Revelation 16:15 (WEB)
15 “Behold, I come like a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his clothes, so that he doesn’t walk naked, and they see his shame.”

Revelation 19:7-8 (WEB)
7 Let us rejoice and be exceedingly glad, and let us give the glory to him. For the wedding of the Lamb has come, and his wife has made herself ready.” 8 It was given to her that she would array herself in bright, pure, fine linen: for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.

Revelation 21:6-8 (WEB)
6 He said to me, “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give freely to him who is thirsty from the spring of the water of life. 7 He who overcomes, I will give him these things. I will be his God, and he will be my son.
8 But for the cowardly, unbelieving, sinners, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers (drug dealers) idolaters, and all liars, their part is in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

All the Apostles confirm all that Lord Jesus taught them to observe:

1 Peter 1:13-19 (WEB)
13 Therefore prepare your minds for action. Be sober, and set your hope fully on the grace that will be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ — 14 as children of obedience, not conforming yourselves according to your former lusts as in your ignorance, 15 but just as he who called you is holy, you yourselves also be holy in all of your behavior; 16 because it is written, “You shall be holy; for I am holy.” [Leviticus 11:44-45] 17 If you call on him as Father, who without respect of persons judges according to each man’s work, pass the time of your living as foreigners here in reverent fear, 18 knowing that you were redeemed, not with corruptible things, with silver or gold, from the useless way of life handed down from your fathers, 19 but with precious blood, as of a lamb without blemish or spot, the blood of Christ

Blessings
 
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When Peter preached on the day of Pentecost, he promised the remission of sins and gift of the Holy Spirit (this arguably requires regeneration) to those who repent and are baptized (in verse 38). Verse 39 says that that offer extends to today. Were those taking up the offer in the spirit or in the flesh at the time? I don't need to know - its just a gotcha question.

Acts 2:36 “Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.” 37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Men and brethren, what shall we do?” 38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.” 40 And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, “Be saved from this perverse generation.” 41 Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them
It’s not a gotcha question. It’s a biblical question, and there’s an answer.
 
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