Thousands of vaccinated people sick, dozens dead

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RDKirk

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90% effective with 5800 people infected? That is just right now! Let me ask you this. Over the last 15 years, how many people who got the smallpox vaccine got smallpox? The answer? Zero. There has not been a smallpox case since 1977. The difference?

You realize, don't you, that vaccines are not tested by deliberately exposing the subjects to the disease? The subjects merely return to the environment of the general population and studied to determine if they then contract the disease at the same rate as the general population.

The difference is that smallpox was considered eliminated 'way back in 1980 and no naturally occurring case has been reported since. Nobody in the last 15 years has had anyone in the general population to catch it from.
 
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RDKirk

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About 5,800 of more 78.5 million vaccinated Americans — 0.0074% — have become infected by the virus, according to new data from the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. Of these, 396 required hospitalization and 74 people died, the CDC said.

CDC reports 5,800 Covid-19 infections, 74 deaths in fully vaccinated people (mercurynews.com)

So 0.0074% of vaccinated Americans have contracted Covid-19 infection,

0.0005% of vaccinated Americans have been hospitalized for Covid-19 infection,

and 0.00009% of vaccinated Americans have died from Covid-19 infection.
 
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GoldenBoy89

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Hey, the people at Moderna are the "experts" who dance around what to call it. Ask them!
They call it a vaccine. You’re the only one saying it’s not. You base your claim not on any knowledge on the subject but on that assumption that they don’t call it a one when it’s been shown that they do in fact, call it a vaccine.
 
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Aldebaran

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CDC reports 5,800 Covid-19 infections, 74 deaths in fully vaccinated people (mercurynews.com)

So 0.0074% of vaccinated Americans have contracted Covid-19 infection,

0.0005% of vaccinated Americans have been hospitalized for Covid-19 infection,

and 0.00009% of vaccinated Americans have died from Covid-19 infection.

Over how long of a time? The total number we have now of vaccinated versus those who got covid, or died from the vaccine, or were injured in some way is only after several months at most, and most are probably within the past 1 month. Give it the 12 month span of time they claim the vaccines are good for and then you'll have accurate numbers.
 
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RDKirk

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Aldebaran

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"Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 vaccine" is all over their website.

Pfizer: One of the world's premier biopharmaceutical companies

Yeah, I noticed that there. I'm surprised Moderna didn't have that. And Astrazeneca's site didn't seem to have much of anything on their site unless you started really digging to find anything about Covid. Must have something to do with the problems they were having in Europe. So they scrubbed it from their site.
 
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Tropical Wilds

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90% effective with 5800 people infected? That is just right now! Let me ask you this. Over the last 15 years, how many people who got the smallpox vaccine got smallpox? The answer? Zero. There has not been a smallpox case since 1977? The difference? The smallpox vaccine is a true vaccine of the virus. This Covid thing they are giving you is not a vaccine! There is no live virus in the vaccine!

Actually, only a small fragment of vaccines have live virus in them.

Vaccines include inactivated, live-attenuated, mRNA, subunit, recombinant, polysaccharide, conjugate, toxoid, and viral vector. Only two, live-attenuated and viral vector, carry “live viruses.” Even then, viral vector may carry live viruses (but not necessarily), though they are never the virus you’re getting the shot to prevent. For example, the COVID viral vector vaccine has adenovirus, influenza, and a different strain of COVID. They’re all live, though none of them are COVID-19.

The reasons most vaccines don’t have live viruses is simple; safety and cost to manufacture. Creating synthetic profiles, extracting them from subjects, or triggering immune responses from adjacent viral stimuli is cheaper, safer, and easier to mass distribute.

They should have developed it the right way because not one person, not one, can tell me the long term effects of this vaccine or what it will manifest into.

Actually, a lot of people can. The mRNA COVID vaccine has been in development since 1988, however, because COVID is a broad class of virus that causes relatively few deaths in the industrialized world (until COVID 19 came along), progress was slow, steady, and largely ignored as the primary benefactors of the COVID mNRA-class vaccines would be “third world countries.”

We got incredibly, incredibly lucky that the pandemic was born of a virus we already knew about and had begun broad work on, and had data that spanned decades. That is what allowed us to get the vaccine created and rolled out, and approved, as quickly as it was. We had 30+ years of data on it already. We just didn’t think it was important to know about it or apply it until a variant of said virus started ravaging the industrialized world. Minor COVID variant wiping out a town in Africa? NBD. Major variant killing hundreds of thousands of Americans and preventing them from going to Disneyland? Suddenly people care.
 
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Tropical Wilds

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Yeah, I noticed that there. I'm surprised Moderna didn't have that. And Astrazeneca's site didn't seem to have much of anything on their site unless you started really digging to find anything about Covid. Must have something to do with the problems they were having in Europe. So they scrubbed it from their site.

Front page of the Moderna website.
 

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ThatRobGuy

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Define " credible"

In a clinical sense...

A credible source (for vaccine efficacy) would be a person who has the following
- aggregated data
- clinical trial results
- a breakdown of their methodology
...and each of those things would need to be subjected to peer review


A credible source for the implied sentiment of covid data being skewed to promote some sort of "agenda", would require the following:

- sworn affidavits from medical professional claiming they were instructed to count non-covid deaths as covid deaths.

- sworn affidavits from lab technicians claiming they were instructed to falsify test results to count negative test results as positives.

...and some sort of tangible evidence to substantiate those claims. (Like an email, an audio recording of a phone call or conversation, video footage of people tampering with the samples, etc...)

The same would be true for sentiments suggesting that there's some sort of significant danger with the vaccine, and that it's being covered up.

Just like in any other realm of litigation or science, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.


This is the issue when trying to debate either vaccine skeptics or Covid skeptics... they have two totally different standards for "acceptable evidence" that seems to be entirely based on how much the source agrees (or doesn't agree) with what they already had their mind made up to believe.

For instance, studies suggesting that Covid is a real issue, and that the vaccines are safe and effective are rejected by them because:
"...well, the peer reviewers could be in on it"
"...The brother of the cousin of the mailman for one of the researchers once went out to dinner with someone who worked for a drug company"
etc...

Yet, when it comes to supposed "evidence" of conspiracy
"Carol4278 on the Holistic wellness blog said her Aunt's friend is a nurse, and that she was told to count someone as a covid death even though they weren't"

...and it's "yep, that's good enough for me, that proves there's a conspiracy!"


They'll set a standard of proof that's unattainable under any circumstance for the thing they don't want to believe. But they'll accept any old anecdote as "proof" for what they do want to believe.
 
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Aldebaran

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Front page of the Moderna website.

The first one is a background photo on their site. I'd rather show actual text from their site. Nowhere do they use the word "vaccine". They say "medicines, operating system, platform, and software", but not "vaccine". See for yourself:

Enabling Drug Discovery & Development
We built Moderna on the guiding premise that if using mRNA as a medicine works for one disease, it should work for many diseases. And, if this is possible – given the right approach and infrastructure – it could meaningfully improve how medicines are discovered, developed and manufactured.

Our Operating System
Recognizing the broad potential of mRNA science, we set out to create an mRNA technology platform that functions very much like an operating system on a computer. It is designed so that it can plug and play interchangeably with different programs. In our case, the "program” or “app” is our mRNA drug - the unique mRNA sequence that codes for a protein.

We have a dedicated team of several hundred scientists and engineers solely focused on advancing Moderna's platform technology. They are organized around key disciplines and work in an integrated fashion to advance knowledge surrounding mRNA science and solve for challenges that are unique to mRNA drug development. Some of these disciplines include mRNA biology, chemistry, formulation & delivery, bioinformatics and protein engineering.

Our mRNA Medicines – The ‘Software of Life’
When we have a concept for a new mRNA medicine and begin research, fundamental components are already in place.

Generally, the only thing that changes from one potential mRNA medicine to another is the coding region – the actual genetic code that instructs ribosomes to make protein. Utilizing these instruction sets gives our investigational mRNA medicines a software-like quality. We also have the ability to combine different mRNA sequences encoding for different proteins in a single mRNA investigational medicine.

We are leveraging the flexibility afforded by our platform and the fundamental role mRNA plays in protein synthesis to pursue mRNA medicines for a broad spectrum of diseases.

Moderna_Formulation-mRNA.jpg

Within a given modality, the base components are generally identical across development candidates - formulation, 5’ region and 3’ region. Only the coding region varies based on the protein/s the potential medicine is directing cells to produce.

Learn how our Research Engine and Early Development Engine are enabling us to fully maximize the promise of mRNA to meaningfully improve how medicines are discovered, developed and manufactured.

Overcoming Key Challenges
Using mRNA to create medicines is a complex undertaking and requires overcoming novel scientific and technical challenges. We need to get the mRNA into the targeted tissue and cells while evading the immune system. If the immune system is triggered, the resultant response may limit protein production and, thus, limit the therapeutic benefit of mRNA medicines. We also need ribosomes to think the mRNA was produced naturally, so they can accurately read the instructions to produce the right protein. And we need to ensure the cells express enough of the protein to have the desired therapeutic effect.

Our multidisciplinary platform teams work together closely to address these scientific and technical challenges. This intensive cross-functional collaboration has enabled us to advance key aspects of our platform and make significant strides to deliver mRNA medicines for patients.
 
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GoldenBoy89

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The first one is a background photo on their site. I'd rather show actual text from their site. Nowhere do they use the word "vaccine". They say "medicines, operating system, platform, and software", but not "vaccine". See for yourself:

Enabling Drug Discovery & Development
We built Moderna on the guiding premise that if using mRNA as a medicine works for one disease, it should work for many diseases. And, if this is possible – given the right approach and infrastructure – it could meaningfully improve how medicines are discovered, developed and manufactured.

Our Operating System
Recognizing the broad potential of mRNA science, we set out to create an mRNA technology platform that functions very much like an operating system on a computer. It is designed so that it can plug and play interchangeably with different programs. In our case, the "program” or “app” is our mRNA drug - the unique mRNA sequence that codes for a protein.

We have a dedicated team of several hundred scientists and engineers solely focused on advancing Moderna's platform technology. They are organized around key disciplines and work in an integrated fashion to advance knowledge surrounding mRNA science and solve for challenges that are unique to mRNA drug development. Some of these disciplines include mRNA biology, chemistry, formulation & delivery, bioinformatics and protein engineering.

Our mRNA Medicines – The ‘Software of Life’
When we have a concept for a new mRNA medicine and begin research, fundamental components are already in place.

Generally, the only thing that changes from one potential mRNA medicine to another is the coding region – the actual genetic code that instructs ribosomes to make protein. Utilizing these instruction sets gives our investigational mRNA medicines a software-like quality. We also have the ability to combine different mRNA sequences encoding for different proteins in a single mRNA investigational medicine.

We are leveraging the flexibility afforded by our platform and the fundamental role mRNA plays in protein synthesis to pursue mRNA medicines for a broad spectrum of diseases.

Moderna_Formulation-mRNA.jpg

Within a given modality, the base components are generally identical across development candidates - formulation, 5’ region and 3’ region. Only the coding region varies based on the protein/s the potential medicine is directing cells to produce.

Learn how our Research Engine and Early Development Engine are enabling us to fully maximize the promise of mRNA to meaningfully improve how medicines are discovered, developed and manufactured.

Overcoming Key Challenges
Using mRNA to create medicines is a complex undertaking and requires overcoming novel scientific and technical challenges. We need to get the mRNA into the targeted tissue and cells while evading the immune system. If the immune system is triggered, the resultant response may limit protein production and, thus, limit the therapeutic benefit of mRNA medicines. We also need ribosomes to think the mRNA was produced naturally, so they can accurately read the instructions to produce the right protein. And we need to ensure the cells express enough of the protein to have the desired therapeutic effect.

Our multidisciplinary platform teams work together closely to address these scientific and technical challenges. This intensive cross-functional collaboration has enabled us to advance key aspects of our platform and make significant strides to deliver mRNA medicines for patients.
Vaccines are medicine.
 
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Aldebaran

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Vaccines are medicine.

Yet how many people in media, on this forum, or in the general public are talking about the "Covid medicine"? The fact that Moderna won't even use the word "vaccine" is rather interesting.
 
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GoldenBoy89

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The fact that Moderna won't even use the word "vaccine" is rather interesting.
Thats not a fact. @Tropical Wilds linked a pic from the Moderna website where they specifically refer to it as a vaccine.
 
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Aldebaran

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Thats not a fact. @Tropical Wilds linked a pic from the Moderna website where they specifically refer to it as a vaccine.

And I pointed out that it was a background photo on the site. The text within the site doesn't mention it. I just showed you that.
 
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GoldenBoy89

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And I pointed out that it was a background photo on the site. The text within the site doesn't mention it. I just showed you that.
It’s literally a photo of the packaging of their vaccine they called the Moderna COVID-19 Vaccine and it’s on their site.

I’m not following how you don’t see this?
 
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IntriKate

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The way I see it is if people are so eager to allow their bodies their cells to be experimented on with no knowledge whatsoever of long term risks then let them be guinea pigs, count me out don't pressure other people who aren't as naive.
 
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expos4ever

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The way I see it is if people are so eager to allow their bodies their cells to be experimented on with no knowledge whatsoever of long term risks then let them be guinea pigs, count me out don't pressure other people who aren't as naive.
Are you willing to experiment with the long-term risks of Covid?
 
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Jaxxi

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Actually, only a small fragment of vaccines have live virus in them.

Vaccines include inactivated, live-attenuated, mRNA, subunit, recombinant, polysaccharide, conjugate, toxoid, and viral vector. Only two, live-attenuated and viral vector, carry “live viruses.” Even then, viral vector may carry live viruses (but not necessarily), though they are never the virus you’re getting the shot to prevent. For example, the COVID viral vector vaccine has adenovirus, influenza, and a different strain of COVID. They’re all live, though none of them are COVID-19.

The reasons most vaccines don’t have live viruses is simple; safety and cost to manufacture. Creating synthetic profiles, extracting them from subjects, or triggering immune responses from adjacent viral stimuli is cheaper, safer, and easier to mass distribute.



Actually, a lot of people can. The mRNA COVID vaccine has been in development since 1988, however, because COVID is a broad class of virus that causes relatively few deaths in the industrialized world (until COVID 19 came along), progress was slow, steady, and largely ignored as the primary benefactors of the COVID mNRA-class vaccines would be “third world countries.”

We got incredibly, incredibly lucky that the pandemic was born of a virus we already knew about and had begun broad work on, and had data that spanned decades. That is what allowed us to get the vaccine created and rolled out, and approved, as quickly as it was. We had 30+ years of data on it already. We just didn’t think it was important to know about it or apply it until a variant of said virus started ravaging the industrialized world. Minor COVID variant wiping out a town in Africa? NBD. Major variant killing hundreds of thousands of Americans and preventing them from going to Disneyland? Suddenly people care.
Also the technology was weak until they put a lipid around it so it wouldn't breakdown so quickly but even then it wasn't effective so they didn't use it. And I disagree . Covid-19 is unlike anything they had seen before and there are no long term clinical trials to make any basis on.
 
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Jaxxi

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Vaccines are medicine.
What are they when the company making them won't call them a vaccine? Not medicine. Besides, medicine is for sick people. I am not sick.
 
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