Understanding Romans 8, why past tense?

[zoidar]

Short abridged form:
Study of the whole Bible, Genesis to Revelation, including deep dive into Leviticus; came out with my own consistent understanding of it, some of it perplexing to me, but it's what was plainly presented there; discovered a couple of years later to my delight that I wasn't completely off the rails, that I was in agreement with the Westminster Confession, so I decided I was a Reformation Presbyterian, but wouldn't part with my Southern Baptist heart.

I do love the Reformation!

Hm, so it was self study alone?

 

[Clare73]

Hm, so it was self study alone?

No, the abridged form, remember.

I grew up in a Christian home and came to saving faith reading the Bible as an adult (abridged account again). I can't remember if I read the whole thing unassisted, and then consulted other sources, or if I consulted other sources after I came to faith while reading it. I had no counsel, so I had to wing it. Someone recommended a book, I would read it, I heard from some minister on TV that J.I. Packer's "Knowing God" was a must read for every Christian, ordered it, which book then kind of helped me to know where to go, ordered some things at random that turned out to be great sources, enrolled in a multi-year para-church Bible study which was most enriching personally, sought out a church, found a good Southern Baptist one, where they grew you Biblically, all the while continuing my own research and study and acquisition of my very small but excellent (I think) library. . .and loving those Southern Baptists!

And I did find therein, the answer to all my questions.

 

[zoidar]

No, the abridged form, remember.

I grew up in a Christian home and came to saving faith reading the Bible as an adult (abridged account again). I can't remember if I read the whole thing unassisted, and then consulted other sources, or if I consulted other sources after I came to faith while reading it. I had no counsel, so I had to wing it. Someone recommended a book, I would read it, I heard from some minister on TV that J.I. Packer's "Knowing God" was a must read for every Christian, ordered it, which book then kind of helped me to know where to go, ordered some things at random that turned out to be great sources, enrolled in a multi-year para-church Bible study which was most enriching personally, sought out a church, found a good Southern Baptist one, where they grew you Biblically, all the while continuing my own research and study and acquisition of my very small but excellent (I think) library. . .and loving those Southern Baptists!

Ok, thanks for sharing!

Sometimes I like to buy Lutheranism straight off, because I was helped tremendously by Lutheran theology when I had shipwrecked my faith. Still, how can I when I see things that doesn't add up?

 

[Clare73]

Ok, thanks for sharing!

Sometimes I like to buy Lutheranism straight off, because I was helped tremendously by Lutheran theology when I had shipwrecked my faith. Still, how can I when I see things that doesn't add up?

Maybe our talking them over would help. . .

 

[zoidar]

Maybe our talking them over would help. . .

I don't think you understand. When no other Christian could help me a Lutheran guy showed up. I was in deep dispair, you wouldn't know (or maybe you would?). I was told by this Lutheran (who now is a friend) that it had nothing to do with me, that all was forgiven on the cross, no matter how dark I was inside. It came to the point where I gave up to what he had said, I trusted that I was a child of God, and then and there Jesus came and pulled me out of the darkness.

 

[Clare73]

Ok, thanks for sharing!

Sometimes I like to buy Lutheranism straight off, because I was helped tremendously by Lutheran theology when I had shipwrecked my faith. Still, how can I when I see things that doesn't add up?

I don't think you understand. When no other Christian could help me a Lutheran guy showed up. I was in deep dispair, you wouldn't know (or maybe you would?). I was told by this Lutheran (who now is a friend) that it had nothing to do with me, that all was forgiven on the cross, no matter how dark I was inside. It came to the point where I gave up to what he had said, I trusted that I was a child of God, and then and there Jesus came and pulled me out of the darkness.

I guess I didn't understand what you meant by" how can I when I see things that doesn't add up?"

 

[zoidar]

I guess I didn't understand what you meant by" how can I when I see things that doesn't add up?"

I have found things in Lutheranism that I don't think is correct. That's the problem. I love Lutheranism on the other hand, and as I said Lutheran theologi helped me. The fact that I was forgiven first was something new to me.

 

[Clare73]

I have found things in Lutheranism that I don't think is correct. That's the problem. I love Lutheranism on the other hand, and as I said Lutheran theologi helped me.

Well, you can still be a good Lutheran without agreeing with everything.
It's also about assembly, worship, fellowship and growth in Christ.

 

[zoidar]

Well, you can still be a good Lutheran without agreeing with everything.
It's also about assembly, worship and fellowship.

That is true... of course. We'll see. Thanks!

 

[klutedavid]

Like I said to Renniks, I like this view, but what do we do with "conformed to the image of the Son". How were the Jews conformed to the image of Jesus? It also says Jesus were to be the firstborn among many brethren.

There are two groups of people that Paul refers to in his letters, Jews and Gentiles.

Romans 8:29
For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren.

The gospel was directed at these two groups of people; the Jews first and then the Gentiles.

For those whom God formerly knew (the Jews), were predestined to be transformed into the likeness of Jesus.

God has not abandoned the Jews.

The 'many brethren' is a reference to these two groups, Jews and Gentiles.

Jesus was the first to be born, raised, resurrected.

 

[klutedavid]

Right, but that's only chps 3, 9-11. That leaves 12 chps for other treatment of righteousness, yes?
Right, but not the whole book, right?

Only four of sixteen chapters are on Israel, right?

Will you include chapter seven also?

Romans 7:1
Or do you not know, brethren (for I am speaking to those who know the law), that the law has jurisdiction over a person as long as he lives?

 

[Clare73]

Will you include chapter seven also?

Romans 7:1
Or do you not know, brethren (for I am speaking to those who know the law), that the law has jurisdiction over a person as long as he lives?

Chp 7 regards freedom from the law's (Decalogue) condemnation/curse (Galatians 3:10) of our failure to become righteous according to it, right?

We are not free in the NT to violate the Ten Commandments.

 

[renniks]

Yeah, ok John Piper.
There are other interpretations.
The word for foreknowledge can mean more than knowing beforehand.

Dr. William R. Newell was one of the greatest Bible teachers of his day. A friend and colleague of D.L. Moody and R.A. Torrey, he taught thousands of people as a Bible teacher in Moody’s Bible college. His book, Romans Verse by Verse, discusses that God “had acquaintanceship” with the Israelites of the past. So, it was not “mere Divine pre-knowledge” of certain individuals, but a real intimate “pre-acquaintanceship.”*

N.T. Wright, comments on Romans 8:28-30, saying in part:

“[This passage] is a sharp, close-up, compressed telling of the story of Israel, as the chosen people, whose identity and destiny is then brought into sharp focus on Jesus. Jesus, in a sense, is the one ‘chosen one.’ But, then that identity is shared with all of those who are ‘in Christ.’ And he [Paul] isn’t talking primarily there about salvation. He is talking primarily about the way God is healing the whole creation. There is a danger here. What has happened in so many theological circles over the years is that people have come to the text assuming that it is really saying how we are to get to heaven, and what is the mechanism and how does that work. And if you do that, interestingly, many exegetes will more or less skip over Romans 8:18-27, which is about the renewing of creation…"

Paul's observation is on the saints of old, those from the elect nation of Israel who were called to fulfill God’s plan to redeem His creation from its groans and sufferings.

I believe that the point is that what is proven to be true of God by observing His dealings with those called out from Israel in the past must also be true of anyone who comes to follow and love the God of Israel.

 

[klutedavid]

Chp 7 regards freedom from the law's (Decalogue) condemnation/curse (Galatians 3:10) of our failure to become righteous according to it, right?

We are not free in the NT to violate the Ten Commandments.

Were you born under the law?

Are you a Jew, a descendant of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob?

Did the Gentiles in the first century know the law of Moses?

Who is Paul addressing in Romans 7:1?

 

[zoidar]

There are two groups of people that Paul refers to in his letters, Jews and Gentiles.

Romans 8:29
For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren.

The gospel was directed at these two groups of people; the Jews first and then the Gentiles.

For those whom God formerly knew (the Jews), were predestined to be transformed into the likeness of Jesus.

God has not abandoned the Jews.

The 'many brethren' is a reference to these two groups, Jews and Gentiles.

Jesus was the first to be born, raised, resurrected.

What about the last part?

and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
— Romans 8:30

 

[klutedavid]

What about the last part?

and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
— Romans 8:30

The Jews also have been predestined to be called and justified.

What many people thought in the first century was that the Jews were rejected by God. The Jews executed Jesus. The Jews pursued and had the apostles executed. The Jews were firmly opposed to Christianity in the first century.

This is the subject of Paul's letter to the Romans.

Romans 11:1
I say then, God has not rejected His people (the Jews), has He? May it never be!

Romans 11:2
God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew (the Jews). Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel?

Paul is correcting this false opinion that Israel was grafted out of God's plan eternally.

Israel was indeed predestined, called, justified, and glorified. Even though in the interim Israel has been grafted out.

 

[GenemZ]

The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.
— Romans 8:16-17

And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
— Romans 8:28-30

The question I have is why Paul writes: "He also glorified" (v.30). They are not yet glorfied, right? (v.17) Then why past tense?

In Genesis One God created man and woman in His image. But its not until Genesis Two that what God had done in 1:27 became manifested in the material world.

We have been glorified in God's mind. He already sees us in Heaven seated with the Lord Jesus Christ!

To be "glorified with Him" addresses only those who will receive their crowns. But, all believers will receive a glorious resurrection body.

Not all things work together for all believers. For certain believers end up dying the sin unto death via stubborn rebellion against the Word. Romans 8:28 does not apply to all believers. It says its only applicable for those who have come to love the Lord.

Religious emotion driven believers love having rules and man made programs to achieve. Those who truly love the Lord are the ones who can not get enough solid teaching to be continuously growing in grace in the Spirit. God works for those who truly love Him all things for good. Other believers can have quite miserable lives.

Romans 8:28 did not go well for the following type believer:

If you see any brother or sister commit a sin that does not lead to death,
you should pray and God will give them life. I refer to those whose sin does
not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that
you should pray about that. All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does
not lead to death." 1 Jn 5:16-17
​

Their soul will be glorified because of their resurrection body. But they refused to suffer for Christ (when need be) to be made qualified to reign with Him in His glory! Again, Romans 8:16-17 Paul was speaking to those who truly loved the Lord. Too many do not. Though they be very religious.

grace and peace....