"He who practices righteousness is righteous" (1 John 3:7)

[Butterball1]

And I’m saying that your obedience doesn’t make Him Lord.

Again you avoid the issue. Jesus' question is condemning those that would not obey Him, condemning those that would not DO what He says. It makes no sense and is pointless in one calling Jesus their Lord/Master if they refuse to obey the Master in what He tells them to do. For one to call Jesus his 'Lord' requires one to comply with the Lord's commands.

Jesus was judging men not by words they say but what men DO for Jesus goes on to say "Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like:" a wise man with a foundation. "But he that heareth, and doeth not (faith only) is like a man that without a foundation"

 

[Hazelelponi]

Your welcome : )

Sorry I am difficult to follow. I am packing a lot of info into one condensed message. If I were to quote all the Passages with my messages, it would likely even be more difficult to follow.

Blessings.

Why don't you try being more succinct? The question asked, asked a simple question that under a sentence could have answered...

You answered it in such a manner no one knows what your answer even was, and it was a multiple choice question.

 

[setst777]

Why don't you try being more succinct? The question asked, asked a simple question that under a sentence could have answered...

You answered it in such a manner no one knows what your answer even was, and it was a multiple choice question.

Many of these questions are loaded questions that deal with doctrines and texts founded in a particular Christian sect - mainly Reformed Theology and Free Will Theology. I am anticipating these predetermined views in my responses.

While some of the posts I respond to were not meant to be loaded questions, I submit Scriptural evidence for everything, so that all who are reading these messages on this board will know why I have responded the way I did.

Some of my responses begin with short answers though, or short questions in response. I will keep your suggestion in mind though.

Thank you.

 

[Butterball1]

I never said they did.
I said Romans 10:9 seems like a pretty good summary, and I explained why - an explanation you seem to have ignored.

You quote ONE verse Romans 10:9 and say "It sounds like a pretty concise summary to me". And you claimed that since this verse did not mention baptism that somehow eliminates baptism from being essential in one becoming saved.

I was pointing out this one verse is NOT the SUMMARY of God's word on salvation but just a part of it. To get the SUMMARY of God's word on salvation one must investigate ALL the many many verses that deal with salvation and when one finally does this he will find repentance and baptism (Acts 2:38) are just as necessary in one being saved as belief and confession.

You can't make a doctrine from a single verse - true.
But I wasn't trying to.

You tried to use this one verse to "make doctrine" that claims baptism is not necesary in one becoming saved. You use this one verse to claim "Baptism is desirable but NOT necessary for salvation" while ignoring all the verses that DO speak to the necessity of baptism in becoming saved.

You still haven't answered the question; supposing someone confesses their sin, believes in and receives Christ but dies before they can be baptised.

According to the Bible that person is not saved for God chose baptism as the point He remits sins and not belief of confession. The NIV was a poor attempt at trying to force Calvinism and faith onlyism into the Bible and in doing so the NIV corrupted Romans 10:10. Compare the KJV, which renders this verse correctly, to the perverted NIV:

NIV - For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.

KJV - For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

The KJV correctly shows that belief and confession are UNTO salvation, they lead one towards salvation but belief by itself nor confession by itself does not save. Yet the NIV in its attempt to force faith only into the Bible has one saved/justified at the point of believing. Then it has one saved a second time at the point of confessing. John 12:42 belief without confession will not save as belief without repentance will not save (Luke 13:3) as belief without baptism will not save (Mar 16:16).

Baptism is desirable but NOT necessary for salvation.
Do you think God is going to reject someone who has confessed their sins, believed in Jesus, starts to pray and read his word but who died before they could be baptised? (Although they may have been baptised as babies so that might fulfil your "requirement.")

And if serious injury, illness or death were to prevent someone from doing what he says; God is just and merciful.

At the other end of the scale you might have people who were baptised as babies, go to church, do good works, but do not believe they are sinners, have been reconciled to God, nor have a relationship with him.
Their baptism doesn't save them. Even if they were baptised by immersion as teenagers, it still wouldn't save them.

Just because one suffers some injury does not change God's word as you seem to think. What if an unbeleiver was on a way to a Bible study he was invited to and just as he crosses the street to enter the house he was going to he was hit by a car and dies. Had he only lived a feww minutes longer and made it to the Bible study he would come to hear and have faith (Romans 10:17) and be saved. Will he be lost due to injury he suffered? If we can sit aside the requiement of baptism because one was injured and teach baptism is not required then we can set aside the requirement of faith and teach faith is not required to be saved either. The truth of the matter is such "circumstances" never have, never will change what God requires for man to be saved. Since man is not promised the next minute the Bible exhorts men that NOW is the time, TODAY is the day of salvation for no one is promised tomorrow.

TOMORROW MAY BE TOO LATE | R. J. Stevens Music

 

[Hammster]

Regeneration is only for the New Covenant, which the Ezekiel Passages are referring to - when God will make a New Covenant with His people.

The Old Covenant saints were saved by faith as well, but they did not receive the regeneration of the Spirit.

You cannot accept this because you were told that no one can believe until they are made spiritually alive first. But that is not what the Scriptures teach us.

The Spirit was always active in the world and enlightened those who believed in God, but the regeneration of God's indwelling Spirit did not occur because Lord Jesus had not yet paid the ransom for all sins.

Romans 10:17 (WEB)
17 So faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

The Word of God is the Sword of the Spirit (Ephesians 6:17). The Word and Spirit working together enlighten (John 1:9), convicts (John 16:8-12), draws (John 12:32) the world (Ephesians 6:17; Hebrews 4:12).

Many resist the Spirit and the Word and remain condemned:

Acts 7:51 (WEB) 51 “You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always resist the Holy Spirit! As your fathers did, so you do.”

Isaiah 63:10 (WEB) 10 But they rebelled, and grieved his holy Spirit. Therefore he turned and became their enemy, and he himself fought against them.

Those who listen, the humble, will be convicted, enlightened, and drawn to Lord Jesus and the salvation He offers them through the Gospel (John 3:14-18), and so are the ones taught by God.

Psalm 25 (WEB) 9 He will guide the humble in justice. He will teach the humble his way.

Those who humble themselves before His Word and Spirit are the ones that God elects to save and to give to the Son. Those God foreknew, God also predestined for salvation, calling them through the Gospel - This promise is for all those who would love God (Romans 8:28).

Psalm 18 (WEB)
27 For you will save the humble, but the haughty eyes you will bring down.

By faith, in the New Covenant, we are Spiritually made alive when the Spirit indwells us by faith:

John 7:38-39 (WEB) 38 He who believes in me, as the Scripture has said, from within him will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But he said this about the Spirit, which those believing in him were to receive.

Romans 8:9-10 (WEB)
9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if it is so that the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if any man doesn’t have the Spirit of Christ, he is not his. 10 If Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the spirit is alive because of righteousness.

By faith, we pass from spiritual death to life

John 5:24 (WEB) 24 “Most certainly I tell you, he who hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life, and doesn’t come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

By faith, demonstrated by following Him, we are turned from darkness to light.

John 8:12 (WEB) 12 Again, therefore, Jesus spoke to them, saying, “I am the light of the world. [Isaiah 60:1]. He who follows me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the light of life.

John 12:46 (WEB)
46 I have come as a light into the world, that whoever believes in me may not remain in the darkness

By faith, confessing our sins, we are washed, cleansed, from all unrighteousness.

1 John 1:9 (WEB) 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us the sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Acts 22:16 (WEB) 16 Now why do you wait? Arise, be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.’

Blessings

One more time. Simple question. When one believes for the first time, is it in the flesh or in the Spirit?

 

[Butterball1]

I just did.

You've yet to explain the process of salvation from A-Z. Please stop stalling.

You claimed if one beleives that is something to boast about but never gave any proof os such. Why are you stalling in giving proof? You see the error in your claim and now avoid dealing with it.

I gave an example of Noah doing a work IN ORDER to receive a free gift yet the work did not earn him the free gift.. This undermines and refutes faith onlyism and you stall in responding to it. As long as one refuses to understand the everyday fact and reality that free gifts can and do come with conditions one will never understand salvation correctly. Noah did a work in order to receive a free gift, the work did NOT earn the free gift, you do not know how to deal with it so you accuse me of stalling.

Noah found grace in the eyes of God in Genesis 6 for he obeyed, "walked with God". Therefore had Noah NOT obediently built the ark would he have continued to receive God's grace in the saving of his house? Since you will not answer it I will: NO! One CONDITIONALLY receives God's grace by one's obedience to God and one can remain in God's grace by a CONTINUED obedience to God's will for if one will not continue to obey God one falls from grace (Galatians 5:4) having recieved grace in vain (2 Corinthians 6:1). Therefore had Noah rebelled and not built the ark he would have fallen from grace and his household and himself destroyed in the flood with the rest of that wicked generation.

 

[Hammster]

So are you admitting Noah's work in building the ark did not earn the free gift of the salvation of his house from the flood? Would Noah's house been saved from the flood had he done no work in building the ark? Amazing the amount of WORK Calvinists go thru to avoid having to deal with the obvious.

He was saved from the flood by works. We are created for good works (Ephesians 2:10). But he was saved by grace (Genesis 6:8).

 

[Hammster]

Again you avoid the issue. Jesus' question is condemning those that would not obey Him, condemning those that would not DO what He says. It makes no sense and is pointless in one calling Jesus their Lord/Master if they refuse to obey the Master in what He tells them to do. For one to call Jesus his 'Lord' requires one to comply with the Lord's commands.

Jesus was judging men not by words they say but what men DO for Jesus goes on to say "Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like:" a wise man with a foundation. "But he that heareth, and doeth not (faith only) is like a man that without a foundation"

Do you ever disobey?

 

[Butterball1]

It doesn't say anywhere that Noah did a work to earn salvation, and Genesis 6 (which comes first) clearly states that Noah did nothing to earn God's grace. Rather, Noah found grace in the sight of God. Noah didn't earn it.

The Bible nor myself ever says Noah did a work to earn the salvation of his household from the flood.

You continue to refuse to see that Noah did a work in order receive the gift of salvation of his household from the flood and his work did not EARN the salvation of his household but yet that obedient work was a required precondition. Your faith only mentality is not able to deal with this and this is painfully obvious while watching you struggle to deal with it, find a way to get around it.

 

[Hazelelponi]

I am anticipating these predetermined views in my responses.

So, instead of having a conversation with others, your trying to answer what you perceive to be entire doctrines in your every post...

No wonder your answers are confusing at best... your in a conversation with only yourself... lol

 

[Butterball1]

He was saved from the flood by works. We are created for good works (Ephesians 2:10). But he was saved by grace (Genesis 6:8).

If he had not obeyed in doing the work of building the ark, he would have not received God's gracious gift of his househld being saved from the flood. Yet He DID the WORK and the work earned him NOTHING but the work was a NECESSARY REQUIREMENT not an option if he desired to receive God's gracious gift of the salvation of his household.

The irony of Calvinists denying the necessity of the work of obedience in receiving salvation while they work hard at trying to find ways to get around that simplicity.

 

[setst777]

One more time. Simple question. When one believes for the first time, is it in the flesh or in the Spirit?

Neither.

Faith comes by hearing the Word of God (Romans 10:17).

God invites all people (all are sinners) by His Word and Spirit, and either a person can resist the call or invitation and remain condemned, or they can listen and be drawn to Christ by the Word and Spirit, and so be saved. That is the Gospel.

John 3:16-18 (WEB) 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 17 For God didn’t send his Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through him.
18 He who believes in him is not judged.
He who doesn’t believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God.

 

[setst777]

So, instead of having a conversation with others, your trying to answer what you perceive to be entire doctrines in your every post...

No wonder your answers are confusing at best... your in a conversation with only yourself... lol

Not at all, the ones I have been discussing doctrine with on this board are of Reformed Theology, and they have made their positions and arguments well known in their messages.

You actually have to follow their messages on this board to know what is going on.

 

[Butterball1]

Sure He is or they would be free to escape the consequences of their actions.

The implication of Jesus question (Luke 6:46) is the pointlessness of one calling Christ their Master when one will not comply and DO what the Master says. When Jesus commands baptism and one refuses to comply, how then is Jesus the Master over one who will not provide the required service Masterhood requires? Those who refuse to do what Jesus says but instead do what they want to do are their own masters following their own personal dictates.. who you serve is whom you make your master ....you serve "sin unto death" making sin your master or serve "obedience unto righteousness" making Christ your Master in doing what He says. (Romans 6:16)

 

[Hammster]

If he had not obeyed in doing the work of building the ark, he would have not received God's gracious gift of his househld being saved from the flood. Yet He DID the WORK and the work earned him NOTHING but the work was a NECESSARY REQUIREMENT not an option if he desired to receive God's gracious gift of the salvation of his household.

The irony of Calvinists denying the necessity of the work of obedience in receiving salvation while they work hard at trying to find ways to get around that simplicity.

But was he saved? Yes. Would he have been saved from the flood? No. Two different things.

 

[setst777]

But was he saved? Yes. Would he have been saved from the flood? No. Two different things.

Noah lived thousands of years before the New Covenant in Christ Jesus, when regeneration of the Spirit was promised. How was Noah saved?

 

[Hammster]

Neither.

Faith comes by hearing the Word of God (Romans 10:17).

God invites all people (all are sinners) by His Word and Spirit, and either a person can resist the call or invitation and remain condemned, or they can listen and be drawn to Christ by the Word and Spirit, and so be saved. That is the Gospel.

John 3:16-18 (WEB) 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 17 For God didn’t send his Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through him.
18 He who believes in him is not judged.
He who doesn’t believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God.

Neither. That’s interesting. I can find no scripture that says or implies we are neutral. I’m not aware of any theology that teaches that we are neutral. Here you are, though, with a completely new theology. So where in scripture does it teach that we are neutral? I know there’s scripture that teaches that we are sheep or goats, for instance. There’s scripture that teaches that we are blind or seeing. Dead or alive. Lost, found. Etc. But I can’t think of any place that says we are somewhere in between. So help me out here.

 

[Hammster]

Noah lived thousands of years before the New Covenant in Christ Jesus, when regeneration of the Spirit was promised. How was Noah saved?

He was born again. It was necessary even in the OT. That’s why Jesus chastised Nicodemus, because he should have known.

 

[setst777]

Neither. That’s interesting. I can find no scripture that says or implies we are neutral. I’m not aware of any theology that teaches that we are neutral. Here you are, though, with a completely new theology. So where in scripture does it teach that we are neutral? I know there’s scripture that teaches that we are sheep or goats, for instance. There’s scripture that teaches that we are blind or seeing. Dead or alive. Lost, found. Etc. But I can’t think of any place that says we are somewhere in between. So help me out here.

My answer is as old as the Book of Genesis. By faith the sinner are saved. The theme runs throughout the entire Bible.

 

[setst777]

He was born again. It was necessary even in the OT. That’s why Jesus chastised Nicodemus, because he should have known.

Nicodemus was chastised because he should have known the day of Christ Jesus, by which the New Covenant was promised, since the prophesies about the coming Messiah and the New Covenant run through Old Testament prophesies.

Show me where the New Covenant of the Spirit that was promised in Ezekiel and Joel was already active in the Old Testament.