"He who practices righteousness is righteous" (1 John 3:7)

Guojing

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I wasn't referring to any formal doctrine known as "front-loading" and "back-loading." I was just trying to find a descriptive distinction. I honestly didn't know someone had actually built a theology based on those words. o_O

Again, works necessarily follow true salvation. Works are not the cause of it.

You are the first I have seen who use the word necessary for salvation, and at the same time, also distinguish between necessary effect and necessary cause.

The various ingenious ways people invent such distinctions, in order to reconcile James with Paul in their minds, truly impressed me. =)

I can imagine an alternative exchange between James and Paul in Acts 21:18-25, filled with all these distinctions.

Poor James, who may wonder why he needed so many of us 21st century readers, to help him explain to others, what he truly meant.
 
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Paulomycin

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You are the first I have seen who use the word necessary for salvation, and at the same time, also distinguish between necessary effect and necessary cause.

The various ingenious ways people invent such distinctions, in order to reconcile James with Paul in their minds, truly impressed me. =)

I'm just the kind of guy who doesn't like Bible contradictions, is all. :D
 
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setst777

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It's only contradicted due to your plain eisegesis and confirmation bias.

Peter was speaking to Jews who were thoroughly educated in Torah. "What shall we do," is by no means a works-based salvation, because they already realized they had crucified their own Messiah. There is nothing they could do to pay off the debt of such a sin.

They were "cut to the heart," the Holy Spirit having already regenerated and convicted them. You can't get around the necessary process. First regeneration, then works. Therefore, repentance and baptism are necessary expressions of that heart that was already transformed.

You got the cart before the horse.

Before you disagree consider the evidence.

We are inherently sinful, slaves to the sinful nature, and so we cannot of ourselves live out the new life or come to repentance and faith. That is a granted fact all agree on.

Cut to the heart

Therefore, God calls, enlightens, and draws, and invites all mankind (Isaiah 45:21-22; John 1:9; John 12:32; Matthew 22:9) to faith through the convicting power of the Living Word (Ephesians 6:17; Hebrews 4:12), and the worldwide convicting work of the Spirit (John 16:8).

The worldwide drawing of the Word and Spirit (John 12:32) is an invitation for all (Matthew 22:9), without partiality (Matthew 22:1-14)

Many will resist and reject the Gospel call invitation (Acts 7:51-52; Isaiah 63:10; Psalms 106:32-33; Acts 28:27-28; Romans 10:21; Matthew 22:1-8), and so refuse the universal drawing of the Word and Spirit, and so will not come to Lord Jesus to be saved (John 3:18).

To those who listen (Acts 28:28), these are the humble whom God guides, or draws, and teaches (Psalms 25:9; John 6:44) to come to Christ by faith to be saved (John 3:14-17). The ones who listen are cut to the heart to the point of repentance. Those who refuse, remain condemned (John 3:18).

Regeneration occurs, only in the New Covenant - after Christ Jesus appeared to save us (Titus 3:3-6).

Therefore, in the New Covenant, after one repents and believes, through the convicting, enlightening, and inviting call of the Spirit and Word, these are the ones the Spirit indwells to give them life, which is the regeneration of the New Covenant in Christ Jesus after he appeared to save us:

John 5:24; John 8:12; John 12:46; John 7:37-39; Romans 8:9-10; Galatians 3:21-22; Colossians 2:12; John 3:14-18; 1 John 1:9; Acts 22:16; Acts 26:17-18

But only as the believer continues in the faith demonstrated by living, walking, and sowing to the Spirit who indwells them by faith (Romans 8:12-13; Galatians 6:7-9; Galatians 5:24-25)

Faithfully living by the Spirit is the obligation or condition of the Christian to be led by the Spirit and to be saved (Romans 8:12-14).

Therefore, regeneration is a promise for the New Testament believers to whosoever repents and believes in Jesus after being invited by the convicting power of the Gospel Word and the Spirit.

Blessings
 
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John Mullally

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Wrong. John 3:8. Nowhere in John 3 does it ever say, "that whosoever wills himself to believe in Him should not perish but have everlasting life." <-- Note the difference. That's an eisegetical, rather than exegetical interpretation.
Never mentioned John 3, so I don't know where the spurious eisegetical accusation is coming from - again try speaking plainly. As a side issue: Yes, people have a disposition to believe what they want to believe - so yes the will is involved in belief. This is confirmed in the negative sense in John 3:18.

The key phrase in Paul's Letter to the Ephesians is this: '...even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace have you been saved)' (Eph. 2:5). Here Paul locates the time when regeneration occurs. It takes place 'when we were dead.' Grace is un-merited by definition.
No argument. Everyone is spiritually dead till they are regenerated. I don't believe (or see evidence in scripture) that anyone is regenerated outside of their will. Acts 2:38-39 demonstrates where people respond to the Holy Spirit with what they can do (repent and be baptized) and the Holy Spirit does what people cannot do (make alive) - the power of the Gospel.

Another passages in the Bible clearly teaches that regeneration precedes faith see: 1 John 5:1 - "everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God", John 1:13, Rom 9:16 You can't control your own birth.
You confirm my point - note the order - how "believes that Jesus is the Christ" precedes "born of God". As you yourself stated in a previous post: Horse and Cart. Wording order is important. The Gospel is the power of God for salvation (Romans 1:16-17).

John 6:63, 65 "It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life... Therefore have I told you that no man can come to me, unless it be given to him by my Father." "Unless" is the necessary conditional. You can't get around it without contradicting dozens of other passages of scripture.
Unless is not a requirement (God is not a forcer) - as the Rich Young Ruler rejected Jesus's personal invitation. When Jesus was on earth he was not interested in creating a large following - instead he scared many off (for example his teaching on "you must eat my flesh" caused nearly all to leave). He poured what he had into a few disciples (the 12 and the 70) by design. Things changed at the Great Commission (after Jesus attained all authority via the resurrection). Scripture says God is not willing that any should perish (2 Peter 3:9); as contrasted to Satan (2 Cor 4:4). Paul was willing to go to extremes to win as many as he could (1 Cor 9:20).

You're arguing that the meaning of "for" absolutely only and always means "to cause." In this case, it is not a preposition, but rather a conjunction that means "because of," or "since." Any other interpretation is forcing salvation by works.
Dodge. You have to be intellectually dishonest to believe that the "for" in Acts 2:38 would be considered by that crowd crying "what shall we do?" as being anything other than causal. The Holy Spirit does not deceive.

Yes, but only because you're forcing your own confirmation bias. All you're doing is saying, "If those convicted by the Holy Spirit were already regenerated before repentance, then it would be deceptive for Peter to say what I've already pre-judged as fact.
In the end of Acts 2, 3000 joined the Church. If the 3000 were regenerated before they "repented and were baptized", there would be no need for Peter to promise "remission of sins and reception of the gift of the Holy Spirit" with the call to repentance and baptism. It would be counterproductive - as it gives the wrong message (again Horse and Cart).

Correct me if I am wrong: Among the Reformed, I don't think any call to repentance and baptism is ever accompanied with a promise per Acts 2.
 
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Strong in Him

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Again, those 2 statments do not make up the sum of God's word when it comes to salvation.

I never said they did.
I said Romans 10:9 seems like a pretty good summary, and I explained why - an explanation you seem to have ignored.

Rarely does just one verse exhaust all there is to know about a sunject and when it comes to the subject of salvation there are dozens upon dozens of verses which all must be examined.

You can't make a doctrine from a single verse - true.
But I wasn't trying to.

When all are examined we find Christ requiring belief repentance confession and baptism.

You still haven't answered the question; supposing someone confesses their sin, believes in and receives Christ but dies before they can be baptised.

Baptism is desirable but NOT necessary for salvation.
Do you think God is going to reject someone who has confessed their sins, believed in Jesus, starts to pray and read his word but who died before they could be baptised? (Although they may have been baptised as babies so that might fulfil your "requirement.")

Luke 6:46
And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
Jesus is Lord of those who do what he says

And if serious injury, illness or death were to prevent someone from doing what he says; God is just and merciful.

At the other end of the scale you might have people who were baptised as babies, go to church, do good works, but do not believe they are sinners, have been reconciled to God, nor have a relationship with him.
Their baptism doesn't save them. Even if they were baptised by immersion as teenagers, it still wouldn't save them.
 
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Paulomycin

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You got the cart before the horse.

Before you disagree consider the evidence.

We are inherently sinful, slaves to the sinful nature, and so we cannot of ourselves live out the new life or come to repentance and faith. That is a granted fact all agree on.

Cut to the heart

Therefore, God calls, enlightens, and draws, and invites all mankind (Isaiah 45:21-22; John 1:9; John 12:32; Matthew 22:9) to faith through the convicting power of the Living Word (Ephesians 6:17; Hebrews 4:12), and the worldwide convicting work of the Spirit (John 16:8).

The worldwide drawing of the Word and Spirit (John 12:32) is an invitation for all (Matthew 22:9), without partiality (Matthew 22:1-14)

Many will resist and reject the Gospel call invitation (Acts 7:51-52; Isaiah 63:10; Psalms 106:32-33; Acts 28:27-28; Romans 10:21; Matthew 22:1-8), and so refuse the universal drawing of the Word and Spirit, and so will not come to Lord Jesus to be saved (John 3:18).

To those who listen (Acts 28:28), these are the humble whom God guides, or draws, and teaches (Psalms 25:9; John 6:44) to come to Christ by faith to be saved (John 3:14-17). The ones who listen are cut to the heart to the point of repentance. Those who refuse, remain condemned (John 3:18).

Regeneration occurs, only in the New Covenant - after Christ Jesus appeared to save us (Titus 3:3-6).

Therefore, in the New Covenant, after one repents and believes, through the convicting, enlightening, and inviting call of the Spirit and Word, these are the ones the Spirit indwells to give them life, which is the regeneration of the New Covenant in Christ Jesus after he appeared to save us:

John 5:24; John 8:12; John 12:46; John 7:37-39; Romans 8:9-10; Galatians 3:21-22; Colossians 2:12; John 3:14-18; 1 John 1:9; Acts 22:16; Acts 26:17-18

But only as the believer continues in the faith demonstrated by living, walking, and sowing to the Spirit who indwells them by faith (Romans 8:12-13; Galatians 6:7-9; Galatians 5:24-25)

Faithfully living by the Spirit is the obligation or condition of the Christian to be led by the Spirit and to be saved (Romans 8:12-14).

Therefore, regeneration is a promise for the New Testament believers to whosoever repents and believes in Jesus after being invited by the convicting power of the Gospel Word and the Spirit.

Blessings

I honestly can't tell what side you're on, so I'm ignoring you.
 
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Paulomycin

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Never mentioned John 3, so I don't know where the spurious eisegetical accusation is coming from - again try speaking plainly.

I am not talking down to someone who thinks they're a theologian.

No argument. Everyone is spiritually dead till they are regenerated. I don't believe (or see evidence in scripture) that anyone is regenerated outside of their will.

You're clearly contradicting yourself. If one is spiritually dead, then there's nothing they can do to save themselves. The will is dead along with the spirit. When you are dead, you cannot will yourself alive.

Acts 2:38-39 demonstrates where people respond to the Holy Spirit with what they can do (repent and be baptized) and the Holy Spirit does what people cannot do (make alive) - the power of the Gospel.

Flip. . .flop.

You confirm my point - note the order - how "believes that Jesus is the Christ" precedes "born of God".

You're not even reading the verses at this point. "Has been born" = past tense.

is not a requirement (God is not a forcer)

"Unless" is a necessary conditional. God uses force all over the Bible. When did Saul of Tarsus choose to be saved?

Dodge. You have to be intellectually dishonest to believe that the "for" in Acts 2:38 would be considered by that crowd crying "what shall we do?" as being anything other than causal. The Holy Spirit does not deceive.

You have to be intellectually dishonest to take the crowd's question as an apostolic instruction by the Holy Spirit. They want to know what to do, so you read-into it as a command to "do," which confirms your works righteousness. Wow.

In the end of Acts 2, 3000 joined the Church. If the 3000 were regenerated before they "repented and were baptized", there would be no need for Peter to promise "remission of sins and reception of the gift of the Holy Spirit" with the call to repentance and baptism. It would be counterproductive - as it gives the wrong message (again Horse and Cart).

"as it gives the wrong message" Translation: "It messes with my framed narrative."

". . .for the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.”

^ Whoops. "As many as the Lord God will call." That means the call is not universal, but particular. As many as God calls gets the promise. There's no universal effectual call here for anyone to make a choice.

All you want to do is force your eisegetical bias (do try to look it up sometime). I can't force you to repent of your works-righteousness. You obviously have something to boast of. So, I'm giving you the last word, for what it's worth.
 
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Hammster

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You have yet to repsond to what I posted.

---how can one boast about being unprofitable?

--did Noah's obedient work in building the ark earn the salvation of his household in Hebrews 11:7?
No. That was God’s grace.
 
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Hammster

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You can say that, but it doesn't make it true.

The Scriptures tell us differently about what Lord Jesus said.

By faith, we pass from spiritual death to life

John 5:24 (WEB) 24 “Most certainly I tell you, he who hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life, and doesn’t come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

By faith, demonstrated by following Him, we are turned from darkness to light.

John 8:12 (WEB) 12 Again, therefore, Jesus spoke to them, saying, “I am the light of the world. [Isaiah 60:1]. He who follows me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the light of life.

John 12:46 (WEB)
46 I have come as a light into the world, that whoever believes in me may not remain in the darkness

By faith
, we are Spiritually made alive when the Spirit indwells us by faith:

John 7:38-39 (WEB) 38 He who believes in me, as the Scripture has said, from within him will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But he said this about the Spirit, which those believing in him were to receive.

Romans 8:9-10 (WEB)
9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if it is so that the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if any man doesn’t have the Spirit of Christ, he is not his. 10 If Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the spirit is alive because of righteousness.

By faith, confessing our sins, we are washed, cleansed, from all unrighteousness.

1 John 1:9 (WEB) 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us the sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Acts 22:16 (WEB) 16 Now why do you wait? Arise, be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.’

Blessings
Here’s the thing. You asked for scripture that said that regeneration precedes faith. I said, in a round about way, that there’s no specific verse or verses, but I did demonstrate the fact that we cannot do good things that please God while in the flesh. You seem to think that there are specific verses that say that faith precedes regeneration, yet you haven’t produced any.

Every verse you posts says nothing about regeneration, though they do talk about faith.
 
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Hammster

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Ezekiel 11 makes clear that getting the new heart and new Spirit is God's work.

Ezekiel 11:18-21 (WEB)
18 “‘They will come there, and they will take away all its detestable things and all its abominations from there (repentance). 19 I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you. I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them a heart of flesh; 20 that they may walk in my statutes, and keep my ordinances, and do them. They will be my people, and I will be their God. 21 But as for them whose heart walks after the heart of their detestable things and their abominations, I will bring their way on their own heads, (those who do not repent) says the Lord Yahweh.”

Ezekiel 11 makes clear that God leaves the choice to repent and so receive a new heart and Spirit, or to not repent, up to each individual.

Chapter 36 does not discuss the means by which God gives the new heart and new Spirit, but Ezekiel 18 does show us how that takes place, and so does the New Testament.

By faith, we pass from spiritual death to life

John 5:24 (WEB) 24 “Most certainly I tell you, he who hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life, and doesn’t come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

By faith, demonstrated by following Him, we are turned from darkness to light

John 8:12 (WEB) 12 Again, therefore, Jesus spoke to them, saying, “I am the light of the world. [Isaiah 60:1]. He who follows me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the light of life.

John 12:46 (WEB)
46 I have come as a light into the world, that whoever believes in me may not remain in the darkness

By faith
, we are made alive when the Spirit indwells us by faith:

John 7:38-39 (WEB) 38 He who believes in me, as the Scripture has said, from within him will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But he said this about the Spirit, which those believing in him were to receive.

Spirit must be IN YOU to be given Spiritual life - only by faith (John 7:38-39)

Romans 8:9-10 (WEB)
9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if it is so that the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if any man doesn’t have the Spirit of Christ, he is not his. 10 If Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the spirit is alive because of righteousness.

That is the regeneration of the Spirit - the Spirit being poured out upon believers (Titus 3:4-6) to make them alive just as in the UPPER ROOM - and that promise of the Spirit is for all who would repent (Acts 2:38).

You have to learn to read the context of Scripture to find out how this all happens, because one verse or passage will not likely explain everything, so you have to compare all related Scripture on that teaching.

NOTE: The regeneration by the Spirit is a New Testament promise after Christ Jesus appeared (Titus 3:3-6). All those who believed in the Old Testament did so before Christ appeared - before regeneration of the New Covenant.

Blessings
Simple question then. When one believes for the first time, is it in the flesh or in the Spirit?
 
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setst777

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I honestly can't tell what side you're on, so I'm ignoring you.

I am on the side of the Truth of God's Word and Spirit.

2 Corinthians 10:2-13 (NIV)
2 I beg you that when I come I may not have to be as bold as I expect to be toward some people who think that we live by the standards of this world.
3 For though we live in the world, we do not wage war as the world does. 4 The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds.
5 We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ.

Blessings.
 
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setst777

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Simple question then. When one believes for the first time, is it in the flesh or in the Spirit?

Regeneration is only for the New Covenant, which the Ezekiel Passages are referring to - when God will make a New Covenant with His people.

The Old Covenant saints were saved by faith as well, but they did not receive the regeneration of the Spirit.

You cannot accept this because you were told that no one can believe until they are made spiritually alive first. But that is not what the Scriptures teach us.

The Spirit was always active in the world and enlightened those who believed in God, but the regeneration of God's indwelling Spirit did not occur because Lord Jesus had not yet paid the ransom for all sins.

Romans 10:17 (WEB)
17 So faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

The Word of God is the Sword of the Spirit (Ephesians 6:17). The Word and Spirit working together enlighten (John 1:9), convicts (John 16:8-12), draws (John 12:32) the world (Ephesians 6:17; Hebrews 4:12).

Many resist the Spirit and the Word and remain condemned:

Acts 7:51 (WEB) 51 “You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always resist the Holy Spirit! As your fathers did, so you do.”

Isaiah 63:10 (WEB) 10 But they rebelled, and grieved his holy Spirit. Therefore he turned and became their enemy, and he himself fought against them.

Those who listen, the humble, will be convicted, enlightened, and drawn to Lord Jesus and the salvation He offers them through the Gospel (John 3:14-18), and so are the ones taught by God.

Psalm 25 (WEB) 9 He will guide the humble in justice. He will teach the humble his way.

Those who humble themselves before His Word and Spirit are the ones that God elects to save and to give to the Son. Those God foreknew, God also predestined for salvation, calling them through the Gospel - This promise is for all those who would love God (Romans 8:28).

Psalm 18 (WEB)
27 For you will save the humble, but the haughty eyes you will bring down.

By faith, in the New Covenant, we are Spiritually made alive when the Spirit indwells us by faith:

John 7:38-39 (WEB) 38 He who believes in me, as the Scripture has said, from within him will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But he said this about the Spirit, which those believing in him were to receive.

Romans 8:9-10 (WEB)
9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if it is so that the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if any man doesn’t have the Spirit of Christ, he is not his. 10 If Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the spirit is alive because of righteousness.

By faith, we pass from spiritual death to life

John 5:24 (WEB) 24 “Most certainly I tell you, he who hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life, and doesn’t come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

By faith, demonstrated by following Him, we are turned from darkness to light.

John 8:12 (WEB) 12 Again, therefore, Jesus spoke to them, saying, “I am the light of the world. [Isaiah 60:1]. He who follows me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the light of life.

John 12:46 (WEB)
46 I have come as a light into the world, that whoever believes in me may not remain in the darkness

By faith, confessing our sins, we are washed, cleansed, from all unrighteousness.

1 John 1:9 (WEB) 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us the sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Acts 22:16 (WEB) 16 Now why do you wait? Arise, be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.’

Blessings
 
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Hazelelponi

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Regeneration is only for the New Covenant, which the Ezekiel Passages are referring to - when God will make a New Covenant with His people.

You just threw me here... exactly what Covenant do you think we are under right now?

Because I, (don't know about you) am under the New Covenant right now...

It seems you think we are under a different covenant? Or am I misunderstanding your meaning/intent here... ?

You're fairly difficult to follow, to be honest...
 
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Butterball1

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No. That was God’s grace.
So are you admitting Noah's work in building the ark did not earn the free gift of the salvation of his house from the flood? Would Noah's house been saved from the flood had he done no work in building the ark? Amazing the amount of WORK Calvinists go thru to avoid having to deal with the obvious.
 
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setst777

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You just threw me here... exactly what Covenant do you think we are under right now?

Because I, (don't know about you) am under the New Covenant right now...

It seems you think we are under a different covenant? Or am I misunderstanding your meaning/intent here... ?

You're fairly difficult to follow, to be honest...

The New Covenant began with the Appearing of Lord Jesus to save us from our sins in around 33 AD.

Those who believe in Jesus become part of the New Covenant. The New Covenant believers receive the Spirit to give them life.

By faith, we pass from spiritual death to life

John 5:24 (WEB) 24 “Most certainly I tell you, he who hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life, and doesn’t come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

By faith, demonstrated by following Him, we are turned from darkness to light.

John 8:12 (WEB) 12 Again, therefore, Jesus spoke to them, saying, “I am the light of the world. [Isaiah 60:1]. He who follows me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the light of life.

John 12:46 (WEB)
46 I have come as a light into the world, that whoever believes in me may not remain in the darkness

By faith, we are Spiritually made alive when the Spirit indwells us by faith:

John 7:38-39 (WEB) 38 He who believes in me, as the Scripture has said, from within him will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But he said this about the Spirit, which those believing in him were to receive.

Romans 8:9-10 (WEB)
9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if it is so that the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if any man doesn’t have the Spirit of Christ, he is not his. 10 If Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the spirit is alive because of righteousness.

By faith, confessing our sins, we are washed, cleansed, from all unrighteousness.

1 John 1:9 (WEB) 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us the sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Acts 22:16 (WEB) 16 Now why do you wait? Arise, be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.’

Blessings
 
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Hazelelponi

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The New Covenant began with the Appearing of Lord Jesus to save us from our sins in around 33 AD.

Those who believe in Jesus become part of the New Covenant. The New Covenant believers receive the Spirit to give them life.

By faith, we pass from spiritual death to life

John 5:24 (WEB) 24 “Most certainly I tell you, he who hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life, and doesn’t come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

By faith, demonstrated by following Him, we are turned from darkness to light.

John 8:12 (WEB) 12 Again, therefore, Jesus spoke to them, saying, “I am the light of the world. [Isaiah 60:1]. He who follows me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the light of life.

John 12:46 (WEB)
46 I have come as a light into the world, that whoever believes in me may not remain in the darkness

By faith, we are Spiritually made alive when the Spirit indwells us by faith:

John 7:38-39 (WEB) 38 He who believes in me, as the Scripture has said, from within him will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But he said this about the Spirit, which those believing in him were to receive.

Romans 8:9-10 (WEB)
9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if it is so that the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if any man doesn’t have the Spirit of Christ, he is not his. 10 If Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the spirit is alive because of righteousness.

By faith, confessing our sins, we are washed, cleansed, from all unrighteousness.

1 John 1:9 (WEB) 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us the sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Acts 22:16 (WEB) 16 Now why do you wait? Arise, be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.’

Blessings

I didn't need all the Scriptures, as I already know what they are... it just appeared your beliefs were that we weren't under it now...

So it threw me off... thanks for answering. You really are difficult for me to follow.
 
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You're shoehorning works into belief. Belief isn't a work either.

My point that you keep ignoring are the words “work of faith” mentioned by Paul in 1 Thessalonians 1:3, and 2 Thessalonians 1:11. For example: The Bible also mentions a thing called the: “work of the Lord,”

“Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.” (1 Corinthians 15:58).

You are saying that the “work” in the “work of faith” is totally separate from the “faith.” But that would be like saying that the “work” of “the work of the Lord” (in 1 Corinthians 15:58) is totally separate or unrelated from “the Lord.” Yes, a work can be different from the Lord. But the “work of the Lord” is tied or connected to “the Lord.” Just as the “work” in the “work of faith” is connected to the “faith.”

Need some examples of the “work of faith”?

  • By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain,
  • By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house;
  • By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac
  • By faith they passed through the Red sea as by dry land

(Hebrews 11:4) (Hebrews 11:7) (Hebrews 11:17) (Hebrews 11:29).

These heroes of faith were being faithful. Their faith led to the “work of faith.”

But lets look at the word “faithful” in the Bible.

“If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” (1 John 1:9).

“But the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil.” (2 Thessalonians 3:3).

So we can see that God can be faithful. This is not a belief alone here. God is doing something to show his belief in something.

For the word “faithful” is a derivative of “faith.”

We can see the same word used for a church in Revelation, too.

“be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.” (Revelation 2:10).

So if God is faithful to forgive us our sins, and if God is faithful to establish us and keep us from evil (Which are things that the Lord does), then we must also realize that a certain church is told to be faithful (to do certain things) as apart of them receiving the crown of life (everlasting life).

Romans 10:17 says,
“So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.” (Romans 10:17).

What is the Word of God that we are to hear in Romans 10:17?

It's the Holy Bible. We need to hear and obey the Word.

“But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.” (James 1:22).

So if we just hear the Word and we are not doers of the Word, we are deceiving ourselves.

Why? Because faith without works is dead (James 2:17).
Why? Because we are justified by works and not by faith (belief) alone (James 2:24).

Belief and faith (trust) is 100% complete and absolute dependence on God + nothing.

Are not the Scriptures given by inspiration by God? If this is true, is not God the ultimate author behind the Bible? If so... then do you believe His Word in James 1:22 in that we have to be doers of the Word and not hearers only, otherwise we are deceiving ourselves? Is not believing the divinely inspired message in James 1:22 that comes from God a trust in God?

You said:
Romans 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”

Thus, it's accounted as righteousness, while it's not a work of righteousness in and of itself.

Yes. Romans 4:3 is 100% true. But to focus a laser beam on Romans 4:3 as the sole truth on righteousness and salvation alone is to come to a wrong conclusion on the topic of salvation and righteousness. For the Bible speaks more about salvation and righteousness in other kinds of ways. The Bible does not conform to our overly simplistic way of thinking on words or by looking at verses that we prefer to hear over others.

Romans 4:21-22 paints another side of the story involving righteousness that flows out of faith.

“And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform. And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.” (Romans 4:21-22).

We see here that Abraham having been fully persuaded (faith) was also able to PERFORM (the work of faith) and therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness. So Abraham had faith + the work of faith (that is a part of the faith). By this kind of faith, righteousness was imputed to him.

You said:
Then Rick has merited (earned) the status of firefighter. You can't weasel out of this.

I don't think Rick will be a firefighter for long if he refused to do the work of a firefighter anymore. Rick believing in being a firefighter includes doing the work of a firefighter. So there is nothing to weasel out of as you suggest. You are simply refusing to see the reality of how things are.

You said:
But the works are the result of true faith.

Hence, why works can be called the “work of faith” and hence why works can be called being “faithful.”
Doing the “work of faith” can also be called, “hearing the Word of God as a part of the faith” according to Romans 10:17.

You said:
Nowhere does it say they are the synergistic cause of salvation.

1 John 1:7 says that if we walk in the light as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin.

This verse sounds synegistic to me because it says we have fellowship with one another. It is not forced because it gives us the IF clause. If we walk in the light. The light is God the Father. So if we walk in the light of God the Father as Christ is in the light of God the Father, then we have fellowship with one another and the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin. This walking in the light is also defined for us by the use of indirect wording in 1 John 2:9-11. Walking in the light is loving your brother according to the indirect wording used in 1 John 2:9-11. So we have to love our brother in order for the blood of Jesus to cleanse us from all sin. For 1 John 3:10 says that he that does not righteousness and does not love his brother is not of God. 1 John 3:15 says he that hates his brother is like a murderer and no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. So a belief alone will not save you. We need to love our brother and we cannot hate him.

You said:
Time out: Define "faith" in one sentence.

Well, if it were to be just one sentence, it would be Hebrews 11:1.

Hebrews 11:1 says,
“Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.”

However, if I were to write more about faith, it would be the following:

One of the definitions at the 1913 Webster dictionary defines faith as:

(Judeo-Christian Theol.) The belief in the historic truthfulness of the Scripture narrative, and the supernatural origin of its teachings, sometimes called historical and speculative faith.
Without faith it is impossible to please him [God].
- Heb. xi. 6.
The faith of the gospel is that emotion of the mind which is called "trust" or "confidence" exercised toward the moral character of God, and particularly of the Savior.

Another definition for this dictionary says:
Fidelity to one's promises, or allegiance to duty, or to a person honored and beloved; loyalty.
Children in whom is no faith.
- Deut. xxvii. 20.
Whose failing, while her faith to me remains,
I should conceal.
- Milton.​

Source:
Faith | Definition of Faith by Webster's Online Dictionary

We know that by faith (belief or trust in God who is unseen and trust in His promises to us) also includes believing the other words by God that involves obeying what God tells us to do. For if God is telling us to do something in His Word, then it takes faith or trust to do that thing. This is why Noah by faith built the Ark. God told Noah to build the Ark. But it took faith for Noah to build it and or to do the work of faith. The work of faith is tied to the faith. They breath in harmony together. Noah was being faithful when he built the ark. In fact, if Noah just had a belief alone and he did nothing and he did not build the ark, he would have perished in the global flood. So a belief alone does not save. For even the demons believe and tremble. Yes, faith can start off as a belief and be accredited as righteousness, but it does not remain that way. Faith will be followed by the work of faith. Faith will be followed in being faithful. Faith will be manifested by a person by both believing and obeying what the Bible says. The Bible is the faith. God gives words in the Holy Bible for us to have faith in them. Whatever part of the Bible you don't believe or act upon, it will be a lack of faith on your part in what God says.

Faith is a belief and trust and can start off that way, but a true faith will always manifest itself with the work of faith. Just like a firefighter who believes in being a firefighter does the work of a firefighter. It is a natural outflow of his belief. They breath together in harmony. Faith is believing and trusting God, and faith also is obeying God. For Jesus said, why do you call me Lord, Lord and do not the things that I say? (Luke 6:46). Meaning, they had a belief in the Lord, but it was not the correct kind of belief or faith in the Lord that Jesus desired because they did not do what He said. Their profession as Jesus as Lord was mere intellectual ascent. That doesn't work. A belief alone or a faith alone without works is dead (James 2:17). They needed to be faithful as a part of the faith.

Faith starts off in believing in God's grace without the deeds of the Law. We believe (or trust) in Jesus Christ as our Savior (John 3:16). We believe (trust) in the gospel in that Christ died for our sins, He was buried, and He was risen three days later on our behalf for salvation (1 Corinthians 15:1-4). We call upon the name of the Lord seeking forgiveness with our sins with Him (Romans 10:13, Luke 18:9-14). We receive Jesus Christ into our life (John 1:12). This is where faith begins (that comes from the Holy Bible).

But faith does not stop there. Faith does not end here. The journey of faith continues in the “work of faith” by obeying God's Word (the Holy Bible, which is the faith). We are to also perform as a part of the faith as Abraham had done (Whereby righteousness is continued to be imputed to us). For if you obey God in what He tells you to do, you are also having faith in what He is saying. Just as Noah had faith in building the ark. Noah was being faithful to what God told him to do. So then faith continues after being saved by God's grace. This faith continues in following Jesus and doing what He says. Faith continues by following or doing what His apostles said. This is also faith. But it is the second side of the coin of faith. For one cannot obey God without first being saved by God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ. Otherwise one would be putting the cart before the horse. For no man can save themselves on the basis of works alone without God's grace. That would be like a person thinking they can find favor with God by trying to outweigh their good deeds over their bad deeds on some sort of cosmic scale. It doesn't work like that. A person's past slate of sin needs to be wiped out by God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ. Then after, they are forgiven and after they accept God's grace, then obedience to the Lord (as a part of the faith) in what He tells us to do in His Word can then follow.
 
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setst777

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I didn't need all the Scriptures, as I already know what they are... it just appeared your beliefs were that we weren't under it now...

So it threw me off... thanks for answering. You really are difficult for me to follow.

Your welcome : )

Sorry I am difficult to follow. I am packing a lot of info into one condensed message. If I were to quote all the Passages with my messages, it would likely even be more difficult to follow.

Blessings.
 
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Hazelelponi

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So are you admitting Noah's work in building the ark did not earn the free gift of the salvation of his house from the flood? Would Noah's house been saved from the flood had he done no work in building the ark? Amazing the amount of WORK Calvinists go thru to avoid having to deal with the obvious.

I believe your misunderstanding.

Was the Grace given Noah the warning of impending judgement, plan's for the ark, the materials to make it, and the time to complete it in order he may be saved, or did Noah save himself through his own work?

All that is being asserted is that Noah didn't save himself... while he worked (built the ark) as a result of the Grace offered him (warning of impending disaster, plan's, materials, time for completion, general safety) it was God's work which saved him because without the warning, the plans, the material, the time and the general safety Noah could never have escaped God's wrath to begin with.

Salvation isn't Grace + works = salvation, it's Grace = salvation then God's people work as a result of the Grace offered them, from a grateful and loving heart.
 
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